CeciliaV

For him, and from what I can see, for many A's, it seems perfectly normal to be able to do whatever it takes to drink, and they have a talent for being able to pull it together to seem normal enough for long enough to enable their drinking. Hell, even WHILE he's drinking, he can keep it together enough to fool people, including himself.

And no, this extended weekend bender was not sober one nor filled with steps for recovery. But I am just honestly getting sick of swapping back & forth between RAH & AH acronyms. I just know he relapsed and I was at a loss as to how to deal. To be perfectly honest, I don't really care whether these last five days can be called "part of his recovery" or not. I care about whether he does take the steps moving forward. I care that he sticks to his word and goes back to IOP and does what he needs to do for himself. I have told him that there are a finite number of chances he has and I have a finite amount of patience, which is wearing thin, but I have not made any more "you do this and xyz" edicts while I figure out my own stuffs. (Thanks for the advice on that, LC.)

LexieCat

stella,

At the moment he was dead drunk and peeing, no, he was not in recovery mode, he was in the midst of a relapse. My IMPRESSION is that it was, indeed, a relapse as opposed to an abandonment of recovery. There's a difference, I think. Time will tell which way the balance swings.

Look at it this way. You are told by your doctor to lose weight. You work very hard sticking to your diet, see the nutritionist, follow his/her advice. You are making some changes--good ones--and you lose a couple of pounds. You get taken by surprise when confronted with some really tempting food and before you know it, you have binged out. You're feeling shameful, remorseful, confused about how you could have done such a thing when you were so determined. You still are determined. Does that mean you are no longer working on your diet? No--it means you screwed up, big-time, and clearly you need some better tools if you are going to reach your goal.

That's all. If a person's response to drinking is to start rationalizing and saying that instead of quitting drinking, it's better to work harder to control it, and then proceeds to continue with that mind-set, then recovery has been abandoned. Who knows how long it might go on before another attempt is made.

Maybe you have to be an alcoholic to really understand it, but if you are still committed to getting well, to living sober no matter what, then you are still in recovery. Again, my opinion, based on my own experience and observation of many, many alcoholics in recovery (with varying degrees of success right out of the box).

CeciliaV

I know, I know, I have mixed feelings, too. I don't know if I communicated poorly in my novella of a post last night (damn, I was tired, and I still am), but his counselor certainly didn't say it was okay that he relapsed, just that it is so common that it's pretty much expected and that he just needs to pick himself up and keep going and not let it completely derail him. And thank you for the "not necessarily an epic fail" - while I know we've both had our own relapses, I think that going to rehab was NOT a failure for him and that he did learn some great tools...and now he just has to want it and freakin' USE those tools.

And you are so dead on - the counselor did specifically say that the admission of powerlessness over the disease is the toughest part and that is a large part of what he has to focus on. And the counselor now knows better who/what he's dealing with (a mister smartypants who is too smart for his own damn good & who thinks he figured it all out but obviously hasn't). He really just wants to get his mitts on him and work with him to move forward and not let him feel like he can't come back from a relapse. I don't think the counselor is delusional, and I don't think I am either. I'm well aware that it's not going to instantly all be okay if he goes back to IOP, but I also know that his chances are better if he gets back there into the hands of someone who is trained and equipped and aware, and my chances of not losing my shiznit are better if I am better equipped and more aware as well.

I hope he hasn't abandoned recovery. From what we talked about last night and from what he said this morning when we briefly talked, it doesn't seem like he has. Even while blotto yesterday, he said he has so much to live for. I too hope he goes back and gets serious, and I'm doing my best to keep on my side of the street and to keep calm & sane. It's up to him as to whether he goes back and he needs to work it, and I can't work it for him.

And BTW, you can count me among those that would describe you as educated, smart, charismatic, encouraging, etc.

Cyranoak

this right here >>> But I'd change it just a little bit to read like this, "Right now, the only important thing is what he does. What he says is meaningless."

Take care from somebody who has been exactly where you are multiple times.

Cyranoak

Cyranoak

Good luck. I really, really mean it. Backing away now.

C-

LexieCat

It isn't the partner's job to CREATE consequences for him. Believe me, he has consequences. He's probably feeling like crap right now.

Which is how he is supposed to feel. I seriously doubt he's feeling all hunky-dory about "getting away with" anything.

CeciliaV

Yeah, he's literally feeling his consequences right now and horking them up. I've decided to follow the sage advice of taking the time to figure out my own stuffs and not make any reactionary decisions right now. I need time to do that, and I'll be ready when I'm ready. I've communicated to him that he has a finite amount of chances and I have a finite amount of patience, and I'm not sure when they will run out. (For the dog lovers out there, it's kinda like rolls of dog poop bags...you're not sure how many are left, but you sure know when you run out!)

I've spoken with him a couple times today, and we've been texting back & forth. He physically sounds like crap but mentally sounds on board with recovery. Time will tell, of course.

stella27

Cecilia, I think it's great that you went on that weekend trip. I think it gives you a good indication of just how much your presence and support may prop him up.

You probably don't intend to live your life being a pillar for him, and given that he's just recently out of treatment, this could be a really valuable piece of information about how enmeshed you and he actually are and give you some idea of the responsibilities he expects you to bear for him.

CeciliaV

Thanks, stella. I see what you're saying. He depends on me a lot and I think the idea of me leaving and doing something for myself (which I'm NOT known to do!) threw him for a loop and he started drinking before I even left. Not that he needed an excuse and not that me choosing to do something for myself was a reason to start drinking again, but he certainly used my choice as an excuse.

He drank again today. I'm disappointed, but I'm not shocked nor am I surprised. I know the strong grip this has on him. He claims he will go to IOP tomorrow. He claims he wants to get better. He claims lots of things. But actions, actions, actions. I can't believe what he says until or unless he acts on what he says.

stella27

My XAH never went to treatment or ever admitted that he had a drinking problem. He would just tell people, Well SHE thinks I have a problem" implying that my observation of facts and judgment were the real problems in his life - not alcohol.

So I never really dealt with a relapse issue because he never sought any help. Which makes me not an expert on your dynamic at all.

But I saw that you had concerns about leaving town because "what if he drinks?" and he did. It's almost like he's challenging you, or at least protesting by saying "When you leave me, I will drink."

I'm not saying that he understands this, or that I know it's true - it's merely an observation of a behavior of HIS that mustn't be allowed to dictate YOUR behavior (now you'll obviously have to stay home to assist in his recovery because he gets so lonely/scared/helpless/wild/carefree/frisky when you're away.)

That's how they take hostages (as someone stated earlier).

Cyranoak

...now he knows that the boundaries she sets aren't really boundaries because she does not act on them.

dollydo

I may have missed it, but are you attending regular Alanon meetings...and, have you read Codependent No More yet?

LexieCat

No, I get the point (and so does she). I think Cecilia knows she was a little bit overly specific with her "boundary". The basic boundary she HAS is that she is not going to live, on an ongoing basis, with someone who is not doing his best to recover, and eventually she will decide when she has had enough.

I think we have all made statements or pronouncements in moments of upset--particularly when we are new to recovery, ourselves. Things that we are not yet ready to back up with action. I think it is as much a mistake to follow through on certain things (such as demanding that someone leave, or leaving, ourselves) just for the sake of "enforcing the boundary" as it is to have NO boundary.

For me, at least, it was important to make a deliberate decision--one I could live peacefully with. If I had left before I was ready, I would have done damage to myself.

I don't think C has in any way indicated to her husband that it's just fine that he relapsed. I don't think she has indicated that his continued drinking is OK, either. But it is what it is, and until she is ready to make a move that is not merely a hammer to force him into doing what he needs to do, I think it is reasonable to hold off on making decisions to leave (or make him leave).

I don't think that sticking around while someone is trying to recover, maybe with a slip or more than one slip, is being a doormat or not taking care of oneself. Each individual situation has to be considered individually. Part of the reason I feel this way about THIS situation is that C's husband does not appear to be an abusive drunk. If he were verbally or emotionally or physically abusive I would probably not be suggesting patience. But my SENSE, based on what she has shared, here, is that he is someone who DOES want to recover, and is willing to make the effort. If it turns out I'm wrong, we'll hear about it, and maybe my opinion will change.

Ultimately, though, I can have opinions, you can have opinions, we could all sit down and take a vote, but it is C who has to make the tough choices here.

CeciliaV

Yes, yes, and yes. I get what folks are saying, I understand. I do know I can't thrive living longterm with someone who's given up on recovery. He's given me no indication that he has given up, but there are obvious indications that he's having a hard time with it. I'm not ready to give up on him if he hasn't given up on himself. I've come close to having had enough. Like I said, at some point, I'll know when I'm there, but I'm not there yet.

This is what I'm referring to when I mention my own relapses in my own recovery. As much as I'd like to think otherwise, I'm a flawed human being. I get mad. I get upset. I say things in the heat of the moment at times. But just because I say blurt out something out of anger and pain doesn't mean that I have to act on them simply because I said them. I'd be trapping myself more than I'd be teaching some sort of lesson about boundaries & consequences.

Nope, you're right. I've actually told him point blank that it's not fine that he relapsed and that he's drinking.

I've never feared for my own physical safety, thank goodness. He's never been an abusive drunk. Sloppy and emotional, yes; but physical, no. From my perspective, I see someone who does want to recover from this, but he's caught in the grip. He's trapped in himself. He went to rehab willingly. He fell down. He's indicated that he wants to pick himself back up and is having a hard time doing it. I do hope that he really does want to get better and that he can take the steps he needs to in order to do so.

Unfortunately, yes, it's up to me to make tough choices for myself. Right now, the tough choice is whether to make any major life-changing choices for myself. For today, my choice is to not make a choice. (The "don't just do something, stand there!" approach.) I'm not ready. I'm keeping my options open. I'm keeping an eyes open and know I need to be able to get out if I need to get out. I'm hopeful, but I'm not stupid - I know it's possible that it could just not get better and that I may need to get out.

AnvilheadII

so after a very BRIEF period of non-drinking, within a week of being back out in the world, at the very first opportunity, left to his own devices, he chose to drink again. and not just drink, but launch a 5+ day binge.

after having his urine cleaned up and someone monitoring his state of health to assure he did not require immediate medical attention, and after someone else contacted his IOP and talked to his counselor, creating a plan for what he needs to do for his recovery.....what does HE do?

drinks. again. today. in spite of ALL that was done FOR him. yesterday, while he was stupid drunk.

the recovery word has been tossed around a lot in this thread, but I ain't seeing it.

I hope he hasn't abandoned recovery. From what we talked about last night and from what he said this morning when we briefly talked, it doesn't seem like he has. Even while blotto yesterday, he said he has so much to live for.

I don't think he abandoned RECOVERY as I don't think he ever truly embraced it. what he said while intoxicated is meaningless. what he did today speaks volumes.

CeciliaV

No, and no. I attended an in person Al Anon meeting and have been going to on line meetings. The online meetings have been non-faith based enough that I'm good with them, but I just am not a fan of the faith-based approach and the religious overtone I felt in person. I appreciate the wisdom of others who share in Al Anon meetings, but I just am not comfortable with praying and focusing on a higher power or a "god as I see him." I may try again, but right now, it just doesn't feel right. Same thing with the Codependent No More book - reading through feedback and reviews, it does not seem like a good fit for me and my non-faith based approach. I am regularly attending Smart Recovery online meetings. I haven't been able to make it to an in person family meeting yet.

I know I have codependent tendencies. I am hyper aware of my desire to help others & put others ahead of myself. I'm walking a fine line here, I know. It's easy to fall to the other side. I'm doing my best. I'm taking much better care of myself than I was not very long ago, but I also know I have a long way to go. It's a journey, and I'm making my way there as best I can. I may step off the path from time to time, but I know where I want to go and I'm making it there, slowly but surely.

CeciliaV

Yes, my fears for him drinking while I was gone were realized, but hell, he drank the day before I left. I may still have a long way to go in my recovery, but I know he needs to own his action there. Old me would say that I would never have even gone. Old me would say that I need to not let him out of my sight. Current me says I shouldn't and can't do that. I went in to work today, knowing that it was highly likely that he'd drink again today. I could have stayed home and babysat him today, and hooo boy, I thought about it...but I didn't. Baby steps of progress for me. (*pats self on back*)

I just talked with his BIL, who is convince that it would be a good idea for DH (yes, I'm going with "DH" now to steer clear of the AH vs RAH debate!) to travel out to the east coast to see his BIL & sister & niece for spring break next week, saying he wouldn't have access to alcohol and he wouldn't be left alone, that they could take him to AA meetings there, etc. I would have agreed not too long ago. But I told BIL that what DH needs now is to have choices and make them for himself...that putting him in an artificial bubble of sobriety is not what he needs, that he needs to make choices for recovery, if those are indeed the choices he wants to make. He has to have the opportunity to either succeed or fail. And it's his choice as to whether he goes to visit them or not. I've honestly told Dh what my opinion is when he asked me, but I've emphasized that he has to come to a decision himself as to what he wants to do, on many levels.

I hear you, I do, and I thank you for your concerns and I understand your points. And I'm really working to keep from being held hostage. His actions & decisions are his, and mine are my own. Just another one on the long list of mantras I'm accumulating lately!

CeciliaV

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I respect you & others and all your experiences and your points, and I ask that others respect mine. I can't convince you or anyone else that DH ever was working on recovery, and don't know that anyone can argue effectively to me that he never was and won't.

Not too long ago, I would have flipped out at his actions and just lost it, and I would have been triggered and flipped out at you spelling out of all the things he's done wrong and how terrible this all is. But that's not me now. I'm working to find balance in my own way, and I'm working on my own recovery first and foremost. I have a lot of work to do yet, but I feel like I've come a very long way. My opinion is that me working my recovery path and me trying to support discussions, actions, & encouragement towards his recovery path are not mutually exclusive things. Maybe I'm stupid, maybe I'm delusional, maybe I'm wrong. I dunno. Time will tell. But right now, I'm going to just be. I'm going to take it day by day, moment by moment. I'm going to be aware of where he is right now and not feed into what's pushing him down into a spiral. I'm not going to toss gas on a feelings-fire of guilt and shame and worthlessness. I've let him know that it's not okay that he drank, but also that it doesn't mean he can't come back from there. I guess I'm letting him know as best I can that the life-raft is there and that he can reach for it if he wants to, but that it's his choice to do so. At least that's what I'm trying to do whilst trying to not fall out of my own raft!

LadySage

When I had to enforce my boundary of "i will not live with an active alcoholic who is not in recovery" I had to eventually of course determine what recovery meant....which I defined as not drinking and taking an active role in a recovery program. I gave it a bit of time to see if my boundaries would be kept. The ex did make it 30 days without drinking but then relapsed badly...HARD. Drinking for a few weeks and then getting his third DUI last night.

Of course my STBXAH fed me streams of "I have a new outlook on life" "this time it's for me" "I'm ready to move forward" "I want to give you the life you deserve".

I would judge recovery by actions rather than words. And if you haven't seen enough action to make a decision either way that's fine. More will be revealed....it really is true.

I hope that he calls the IOP, that would at least be an actionable step that would give hope.

HopefulmomtoD

(((Cecelia))) I know how hard this is. Only you know what you can live with -although, I just went and read through your old posts and you have been living in hell for quite a while. Do you think your DH can quit on his own? I never felt like my son could control it enough to get through the withdrawls, etc. without a program. The way your DH is drinking he would at least qualify for a detox and perhaps even another inpatient rehab. In fact, at this point, I would be afraid if he stopped without medical supervision. If he is serious about recovery, he should be willing to do anything. Then, I would consider telling him he can't come home- and he needs to go to some kind of sober living for at least six months. (Look up Oxford Houses .... they are all over) He needs serious support to get through this.

I could be wrong, but I get a very bad feeling about your husband. He is drinking A LOT and will not be able to maintain that level of drinking for long without serious health consequences. I fear he could die and soon. He could vomit and aspirate on his own vomit. He could pass out and not wake up because of his insanely high blood alcohol levels which suppress respiration. He's got to be killing his liver, stomach, esophagus, etc. Ever heard of esophogeal varices?

I hope I'm not coming on too strongly. But, I really felt I needed to say this.