kale

My AH and I are separated. I have to see him for work reasons several times a week. Can't be avoided.

When I see him and we speak at all, I see him flush a little and often fight back tears. He really had to do that today when he was ensuring that I would be physically safe in a given situation. This breaks my heart because I was begging him to act like he loved me for our entire marriage. I kept coming to him with real love and he kept pushing me away, doing the typical alcoholic fighting, blaming, degrading, manipulative, dishonest, irresponsible nonsense.

And so here he is fighting tears, trying not to cry in front of colleagues. I know when he's faking crying. This is real I think.

And so the dream of "us" resurges and I think maybe, maybe. Maybe if I heard him taking complete responsibility for what he has done. Maybe if he told me he had some huge realization. Maybe if he went to AA or saw a therapist. Maybe.

And then I think about the children that we don't yet have and how far I would go to to protect them from behavior like that. And shouldn't I offer myself the same protection. Shouldn't I do my damndest to make sure my potential children don't have an alcoholic father?

Can this ever turn out well? Staying together with alcoholic? From what I have heard through this forum, I should head for the hills and fast. I still look at him though and feel something and want us to have a life with each other.

Are alcoholics permanently damaged, always a bad bet? Is he like buying a cheap car with 200,000 miles on it? Bound to be costly, bound to fail repeatedly? Something I will regret far more than any car?

I'm sad and confused.

jazzfish

My parents separated because of my dad's drinking. I think he was out of the house for 3 years. He finally went to treatment and joined AA. They stayed separated for 2 of those 3 years after he got sober. Finally, after much counseling, he moved back into the house. They have been happily together for the last 25 years. There is hope, but they both did a lot of work to get there.

LexieCat

Alcoholics not in recovery are ALWAYS a bad bet. Because there is no way of knowing whether/when they will finally recover, and the disease progresses in the meantime. After a good period (I always think at least a year) of solid recovery, the odds become better. But there are still some who relapse years later. Of course, other thing can happen in life and relationships years later even when there is no alcoholism in the picture. Nothing is guaranteed EVER.

AnvilheadII

Maybe if I heard him taking complete responsibility for what he has done. Maybe if he told me he had some huge realization. Maybe if he went to AA or saw a therapist. Maybe.

what if...you never met. then none of this would be up for the wondering.

all you have is the NOW. of all the endless possibilities in life, this is your here and now. nothing else. what was, was. what will be, will be, in its time. our lives are in THIS moment, no other.

kale

I guess when I list my maybe's, I mean maybe if he does these things very soon, and very responsibly and comprehensively.

You are right. All I have is now. In fact, the separation was prompted largely by my conclusion that right now there isn't much between he and I. He was acting badly and had been acting badly for a long time. And I am completely out of control of what he's doing. I felt very angry and was positive I was done with it all. And now it seems as though he might actually love me.

kale

thanks for the timeline, LexieCat. :-)

EnglishGarden

I, too, saw the alcoholic to whom I was once married become tearful on some occasions, but I believe it was the result of the alcohol's effect on his body, the shakiness they feel when they are withdrawing (especially upon awaking after a night of sleep and the BAC dropping), the weakness that overcomes them if they've been drunk the night before and are trying to get through the day until they can have that next drink. It stirs up all kinds of physical, mental, and emotional sickness in them and teariness is not, I think, uncommon. And to add to that is the general self-pity which is common in alcoholics, what AA calls the "poor me" --the full phrase is "poor me, poor me, pour me another drink." I tell you, a few strong shots of whiskey and your AH is probably back to his old grandiose don't-tell-me-what-to-do cocksure self.

I don't know the length of your separation, but I have known spouses who were separated for several years before any firm decisions were made about the marriage. I do think that since your AH is an active drinker, there is no foundation upon which to build any kind of mutual understanding and future plans with him, for he is ruled by the compulsion to drink and will interrupt and destroy anything you try to structure and make with him right now, whether it is trust, children, a household, a business.

But I have seen separated couples reunite, and those couples did so because both worked strong programs, Al-anon and AA, independent of each other, until they were healthy enough to be together again. It took time. A few years, after committing independently and working to get well. And after reuniting, they stayed together in recovery only through continuing their independent, very strong, commitment to meetings and to service.

We want our heart's desire today, but Life cannot support us in this. Because we do not know what is our highest good nor anyone's else's. Events will occur with the perfect timing of our Higher Power and without our direction and control. All we can do is rise up every day, say a small prayer of gratitude and ask for help in whatever crosses our path, and at night review and reflect.

I would allow much more time, since you are separated--which is good, and if you are in no great practical need to divorce-- for your alcoholic husband to experience life on life's terms and decide what he will do about that without you as his enabler and safety net. There is plenty help for him out there, AA has a proven history of helping alcoholics get and stay sober. Do not pity your husband. Let him feel the full effects of what the love of his life is doing to him--the ravages of the alcohol--and focus on your own growth. In our marriages to alcoholics we completely stop growing, for we detach from ourselves in our attachment to them.

Find your track. Stay on it. See what happens.

kale

It's true. I'm only imagining what he might be feeling. His appearance could reflect a number of emotions and attitudes.

choublak

He shouldn't be having these discussions with you in the workplace.

redatlanta

RAH and I are doing fine and I am glad I am with him. I stay on here to remind myself that relapse (again) is always a possibility.

I don't think staying with an active alcoholic is ever a good idea. In my mind the only way it "functions" is for you to stay co-dependent and enabling i.e.in a very sick relationship.

For me he would need a good solid year of recovery before reconciling.

As for having kids....well. Its my personal opinion only - I wouldn't have a child with an RA. Relapse is always a possibility I can't imagine having kids around during my RAH relapse, and that was after being sober for 10 years. We for sure would be split now if that were the case and I would NEVER give him a second chance.

As Lexie said even when Addiction is not an issue in a relationship there are many other problems that can and do happen - other than mental illness I can't think of any that becomes a "disease of the family" like addiction.

LifeRecovery

Kale-

Being emotional for me was a very challenging thing. Feeling and expressing emotion meant that healing was happening for me.

As a result when I saw it in my loved one I assumed that healing was occurring also. Maybe on occasion it was, but in his case the emotion often happened when there was drinking involved. It was an outlet, but not healing

The emotions and feelings probably are real. My challenge to you is has the real stuff actually caused him to start a program of recovery in the past? I ask because what you write about kept me stuck a long time....

I can relate to the feeling of the dream not acheived. I am 36, don't have kids and opted not to have them due to the alcohol use of my loved one. I am aways from even considering another intimate relationship, so I don't really know that that means for my life. That has been really hard for me in this process.

I do strongly belive it tends to work out like it should.

Hopeworks

When an active alcoholic actually "feels" an emotion such as remorse and regret it is possible that it could become the first tiny step towards a life of actual growth and recovery.

If your husband is expressing a desire to reconcile with you at some point there is nothing wrong with you communicating what actions he would need to take to make that even a remote possibility. I love the book "Redemptive Divorce" which is from a Christian perspective but its principles can be used by any SO of an alcoholic or drug addict.

If you set the standards that would have to be the met, the boundaries of a POSSIBLE reconciliation it could spur some effort and some action on your A's part but unless he wants it desperately himself like a drowning person struggling to the surface for oxygen... unless he is willing to do ANYTHING on earth to obtain sobriety he will simply give in to his compulsion to drink over and over again.

English Garden gave you great information. I cannot encourage you enough to give Alanon a try and encourage your A (if he is seeking your input only) to seek out AA and the steps which ARE the program. The meetings are the fellowship but they are not where the miracle really resides... the miracle of true authentic recovery is in the steps.

My XA... who is the worst of the worst as far as hopeless alcoholics go is beginning to astound me with his wisdom, maturity and growing unselfish attitudes. He is over 100 days sober now and has attended at least that many meetings. He is deep into step 4 with his sponsor who is an amazing man himself who is well known speaker at AA meetings around the nation.

It is a miracle. A book that needs to be written once the ending is more solid.

However, as much as I love him I told him that I won't even look upon his face (he is 3000 miles away) until he is 1 year sober. If he makes that benchmark I told him he could fly me at his expense to an exotic locale of my choice (leaning towards Tahiti or Bali) and we would have a "date". I told him I would NEVER live with an A again and definitely not marry one! The risk of relapse is always there...sadly... and I am no longer willing to emesh myself in a what may be a poor bet.

I like dating and lots of miles between us. I can't meddle and helicopter his recovery and he has to grow up and sort it out on his own! It's a miracle!

Praying for your miracle too....but only his HP and he can chart the course. Just let him know what it takes if he WANTS to know!

kale

Thank you, Hopeworks. Good post. I will check out Redemptive Divorce.

kale

LifeRecovery, thanks for reminding me that I could get stuck here. I thought I was totally out of the relationship until the anger gave way to sadness, and doubt piggybacked in on the sadness.

It's hard having to see him so often.

I've been to alanon, but I have not worked any steps. As an agnostic, I am still struggling with the Christian overtones. And because I don't really tend toward belief in things of a faithful nature, the ways in which alanon resembles a religion throw me off. Recitations of texts, an almost religious devotion to "the program." Articles of faith? The Lord's prayer.

As a science type of person, individual therapy seems more evidence based to me. But I like going and talking to the people at Alanon. And I do wonder what magic lies in the steps.

If not alanon, is there a good secular alternative?

AnvilheadII

kale...I was born and raised catholic, fell away, returned, and then quit. today my view of a Higher Power the Universe....SOMETHNG keeps all the planets spinning, SOMETHING orchestrates the seasons, SOMETHING makes the sound of a bird call beautiful to our ears....the jaw dropping beauty of a sunset, the delight in a baby's chuckle...the hope that springs eternal when my American bulldog brings me her toy for the gazillionth time....just for me I believe there is some higher order, something above our teeny tiny moment that is our lives, that momentary blip on the screen of life.

I know i cannot CAUSE the sun to rise or set, i cannot cause the tides to ebb or flow, i cannot force the silvery moon to shift even one degree to the left. in fact if i stay in bed all day - the world still spins on its axis, commerce and traffic move on.

as a person who has worked the 12 steps and found tremendous relief and new understanding, i implore you to not let the perceived religious overtones prevent you from exploring this path to a better insight of self, and the greater world around you.

LifeRecovery

I also struggled with Al-Anon re: the religious part at first.

Then I remembered "Take what you like and leave the rest." I do get a lot from that group....first and foremost a group of others interested in their own recovery. That is not something I get every place I go.

I luckily have a VERY good therapist so when I am struggling with that part I bring to her to work out. I have found that my struggle around the religion is really about the religion of my upbringing and it gave me a chance to work it through.

Another thing I did was actually bring it up in a meeting....and I was SO pleased by the variety of answers I got about each individual's beliefs. It helped me to realize there was enough room for me.

Kale right now I am really just tuned into your story and it really is helping me to heal myself and see some of what kept me where I was. Thank you so much for sharing.

LexieCat

I know numerous members of AA who are atheists and make out just fine with the 12-Step program. The "higher power" referred to is considered by some of them as being "Good Orderly Direction" (G.O.D.), the power of the universe, their higher intuitive selves, or just the power of a group of people united in purpose. It really doesn't matter.

Furthermore, the "spiritual awakening" described in the Big Book is specifically defined as "a change in personality sufficient to recover from alcoholism." Nothing spooky about it. The same kind of personality change can free loved ones from their own obsession with the alcoholic and his or her behavior.

The Steps are really tools for healthy living, if you think about it. You admit your limitations, you take a realistic look at yourself, you shed your shame by sharing your knowledge with another person, you get willing to change, you clean up the wreckage of the past, making good for any harms you caused other people, and you share your gratitude by helping others achieve the same thing. Sounds like a pretty good plan, not an article of faith or credo.

The Lord's Prayer is decidedly religious, but the way I look at it, there is something powerful about people standing together and expressing a wish for good things for themselves and others. Nobody is required to "pray" and nobody is required to believe in any deity.

kale

You know, part of my issue with Alanon is that I haven't historically liked belonging to groups :-D. I'm not a joiner with groups. Religion never made much sense, sports fan-dom baffles me. I am loathe to consider myself a part of any political party.

I am used to thinking about things my own way and associating with people for reasons other than belonging to a formal group. For some reason, I resist feeling regimented, and the steps struck me as regimented. Held out as a solution for all, I doubted they could be a solution for me.

Not that I can't turn over a new leaf :-) The steps are sounding pretty intriguing. I'm going to try it. I'm not going to turn down the help. Also am considering SMART recovery and CRAFT stuff. Secular recovery stuff.

Liferecovery, if you have any more insight about the nature of my stuckness, I'd be pleased to hear it. I've been listening more closely to my inner voices today, the ones that are currently making me feel so sad and lost. They are the ones that forget I deserve love, good love, not sad stunted love. Love that feels good. The voices wonder whether I could ever find someone. Is everyone already taken? Would I simply have bad luck if I tried to find a parner, and never succeed and end up struggling and alone. These sneaky voices. I'll try to cultivate an attitude of abundance rather than fear and scarcity.

Lexiecat- I like your account of the alanon steps. Very reassuring. Thank you.

AnvilHeadII- I like all the nature things you mentioned. They make me feel small and limited in the very best way possible. It actually reminded me of my first euphoric steps out of codependence. I have only my own mind to live in. I didn't actually know what others were thinking, I only thought I did. I realized I didn't "know" that other people didn't like me and were mad at me. So nice to begin to be small and let go of my mind reading powers. I hope that made sense.

American builldogs are so awesome.

LifeRecovery

I can tell you what I got stuck about.

I got stuck thinking his emotions was practicing recovery. Sometimes emoting is just that....emoting. Sometimes it was a chance to emote so he had an excuse to use his drug of choice.

I got stuck A LOT thinking I should feel better...right then. What was wrong with me that I could not pull my own self up by the bootstraps and feel good though a lot of my entire world was shifting around me.

I got stuck at times not realizing my own healing. It is sometimes hard to see it when you are in it. I also am just now starting to fully understand I am not just healing from my relationship to my exhusband who struggled with alcohol, but the affair that ended the relationship, a childhood that was not abusive, but lonely and chock full of codependency, a fairly strict religious upbringing, etc. For me this was bigger then just one relationship. I have had to dig deep and make changes at the core for the true healing to happen.

Finally I did kind of get stuck on some of the recovery stuff for awhile. At first I did not want Al-Anon because of what I thought did not fit for me in those rooms. Other recovery was not an option where I live. That is often a pattern for me though...trying to figure out how I don't fit so I don't get hurt. I have not done the steps yet (I plan on it) but I do diligently attend meetings and have given myself permission to be okay with that. I have made friends, gotten support and realized in that group I have more similarities then I do differences.

Oh one more (editing to add). I am taking a training for certification for therapy. One thing I have learned is that being stuck is part of the transformation process. The old does not work, but there is not a new way established yet to take its place. I was "stuck" in the fact that I was stuck....and not realizing that this was part of it.

CentralOhioDad

You joined this group back in September, you participate, and you speak freely - so that's progress, right? Give yourself a chance.