Resentment or rage: Does it matter what we call it?
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Resentment or rage: Does it matter what we call it?
We've been having a discussion on ForeverOptimist's thead "Letting Go of Resentment", and I don't want to take over her thread, which has been very useful and constructive, but I do want to pursue where that thread is taking me in my own thinking.
So, I'm going to re-post my response on that thread, then add a new post about what I'm thinking now. Here goes:
I'm not sure that "letting go of resentment" against our alcoholic is necessarily necessary, or even the best thing to do for ourselves.
"Letting go of resentment" has an implication that we are holding onto inappropriate feelings. "Resentment" sounds like a swallowed emotion to me.
The definition of resentment includes:
"a feeling of indignant displeasure or persistent ill will at something regarded as a wrong, insult, or injury" or "Indignation or ill will felt as a result of a real or imagined grievance."
Having a "real or imagined grievance" or "indignant displeasure" or "persistent ill will at something regarded as a wrong" - -
This is not what has happened to us. We have been wronged. We have been treated badly. We have been lied to, vilified, humiliated, debased, slandered, abused, verbally harassed, physically beaten, terrified, threatened, stolen from, snored at by a drunken jerk on the floor, peed on, pick your description of mistreatment, and it has happened to one or all of us.
"Someone done me wrong", as the song says.
We have good reason to be angry. To feel anger. To feel fury. To feel rage. We ARE NOT HAPPY ABOUT HOW WE'VE BEEN TREATED.
And why should we be?
Being angry is not bad for us. This is the truth for us.
The question is not one of "letting go of resentment".
The question is what we decide to do about our anger, our rage, our fury.
The question is about what we continue to take and what we continue to swallow.
The question is how do we move beyond allowing other people to treat us so badly.
Yes, I understand the stuff about carrying anger around will only hurt us, and we should forgive and move on. I get that.
On the one hand, it is true. On the other hand, it is just another way of lying down and taking it again, another way of choosing to be the martyr.
If we're angry, let it rip. I'm not suggesting we erupt like a little cyclone of rage and tear up everything around us. Use a little grace of expression, a bit of eloquence when you say it. You don't have to wreck anything or everything to say it out-loud. But you do have to say it. You do have to own the truth of what happened to you.
I'm saying if we don't get down to brass tacks and admit our gut core feelings, we won't ever get better.
When we're done, we can let go. We can forgive if it suits us. Or not.
When we're done, the fury will have been dispersed, like the top blown off of the volcano. And like the spent volcano, once the fierce fiery lava has erupted, once the roaring energy has been expended, all will cool and there will be quiet again in our souls.
We won't have anything that we swallowed left.
We will be free.
We will be at peace.
ShootingStar1
So, I'm going to re-post my response on that thread, then add a new post about what I'm thinking now. Here goes:
I'm not sure that "letting go of resentment" against our alcoholic is necessarily necessary, or even the best thing to do for ourselves.
"Letting go of resentment" has an implication that we are holding onto inappropriate feelings. "Resentment" sounds like a swallowed emotion to me.
The definition of resentment includes:
"a feeling of indignant displeasure or persistent ill will at something regarded as a wrong, insult, or injury" or "Indignation or ill will felt as a result of a real or imagined grievance."
Having a "real or imagined grievance" or "indignant displeasure" or "persistent ill will at something regarded as a wrong" - -
This is not what has happened to us. We have been wronged. We have been treated badly. We have been lied to, vilified, humiliated, debased, slandered, abused, verbally harassed, physically beaten, terrified, threatened, stolen from, snored at by a drunken jerk on the floor, peed on, pick your description of mistreatment, and it has happened to one or all of us.
"Someone done me wrong", as the song says.
We have good reason to be angry. To feel anger. To feel fury. To feel rage. We ARE NOT HAPPY ABOUT HOW WE'VE BEEN TREATED.
And why should we be?
Being angry is not bad for us. This is the truth for us.
The question is not one of "letting go of resentment".
The question is what we decide to do about our anger, our rage, our fury.
The question is about what we continue to take and what we continue to swallow.
The question is how do we move beyond allowing other people to treat us so badly.
Yes, I understand the stuff about carrying anger around will only hurt us, and we should forgive and move on. I get that.
On the one hand, it is true. On the other hand, it is just another way of lying down and taking it again, another way of choosing to be the martyr.
If we're angry, let it rip. I'm not suggesting we erupt like a little cyclone of rage and tear up everything around us. Use a little grace of expression, a bit of eloquence when you say it. You don't have to wreck anything or everything to say it out-loud. But you do have to say it. You do have to own the truth of what happened to you.
I'm saying if we don't get down to brass tacks and admit our gut core feelings, we won't ever get better.
When we're done, we can let go. We can forgive if it suits us. Or not.
When we're done, the fury will have been dispersed, like the top blown off of the volcano. And like the spent volcano, once the fierce fiery lava has erupted, once the roaring energy has been expended, all will cool and there will be quiet again in our souls.
We won't have anything that we swallowed left.
We will be free.
We will be at peace.
ShootingStar1
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Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 178
Originally Posted by ShootingStar1 
On the other hand, it is just another way of lying down and taking it again, another way of choosing to be the martyr.
If we're angry, let it rip. I'm not suggesting we erupt like a little cyclone of rage and tear up everything around us. Use a little grace of expression, a bit of eloquence when you say it. You don't have to wreck anything or everything to say it out-loud. But you do have to say it. You do have to own the truth of what happened to you.
If we're angry, let it rip. I'm not suggesting we erupt like a little cyclone of rage and tear up everything around us. Use a little grace of expression, a bit of eloquence when you say it. You don't have to wreck anything or everything to say it out-loud. But you do have to say it. You do have to own the truth of what happened to you.
The problem is, when the "little grace of expression" we so carefully scrounge together to rationally make our case for our upset is met with a flippant reply, it's hard not to erupt into a cyclone of rage. I was never a cyclone sort of person, more of a silent breeze over a calm lake, but I have erupted on account of the endless excuses and flippancy a few times now. It's dreadful.
I agree we're all allowed to be angry, and that letting go of that anger can be misconstrued by our alcoholics as an opportunity to unleash their destruction again. But I also don't think it really matters for them. I think they do it irrespective of how we react within the spectrum between calm and crazy rage.
I think in many cases there is no middle ground. I don't like that crazy lady I become when the storm reaches fever pitch, and I have stated the truth about the damage he has caused enough times for it to have either sunk in and been ignored, or simply deflected back at me, so I actively strive to get rid of my anger. It doesn't always work, but it's what I aim for.
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There's been a lot of subsequent discussion about people's resentment, and letting go of it.
But I am having a great deal of trouble with using the word "resentment" for what I am feeling. That word is so equivocal. It has an implication of feelings that are buried, kind of simmering under the surface, not fully expressed or revealed or honored.
I don't feel resentment at what my STBXAH has done to me. I feel anger, I feel rage. And I think those are real, honest feelings that deserve and need to be fully expressed, fully acknowledged, and fully owned. "Resentment" is just too puny for what I feel. It has an ambivalent, almost evasive quality to it.
We have been wronged. We have been treated badly. We have been lied to, vilified, humiliated, debased, slandered, abused, verbally harassed, physically beaten, terrified, threatened, stolen from, snored at by a drunken jerk on the floor, peed on, pick your description of mistreatment, and it has happened to one or all of us.
"Someone done me wrong", as the song says.
My self esteem, my sense of self, my identity have all been damaged by what my STBXAH has done to me. Whether I unwittingly participated in the process, as I became more and more beaten down - and more and more co-opted - is a totally different discussion. He chose this behavior because he intended to build his own self-worth on the back of my destruction. For him to feel good about himself, he had to disown his own destructive behavior and blame me for it, thereby feeling entitled to be "victimized" thereby perpetuating this cycle and driving it deeper with each go-found.
Nothing I did - nothing any human being does - makes them deserving of the treatment I've highlighted above in bold. I will own my own faults, my own flaws, and my own behavior, good bad or indifferent, and right any wrongs I have done to the best of my ability. But I didn't ever do anything of the magnitude to deserve what I got.
My psychiatrist yesterday had some real insight. He's been around for a long long time, very wise, and I showed him my post which, surprise to me, he found very moving.
He told me about a brilliant psychiatrist he had studied under many years ago. She was Dutch, a Duchess, actually, and at her memorial service, he learned that she had been involved in the Dutch underground in World War II, and had taken care of Jews in hiding from the Nazis.
She said that anger was an emotion that usually related to a problem between people that could potentially be resolved by working it out between them.
Rage, on the other hand, requires real change to overcome it.
I think that says it like it is. I think when we truly believe in the depth of our own emotions, we have a fighting chance of getting through to the light on the other side of this emotional thicket of thorns and darkness.
ShootingStar1
But I am having a great deal of trouble with using the word "resentment" for what I am feeling. That word is so equivocal. It has an implication of feelings that are buried, kind of simmering under the surface, not fully expressed or revealed or honored.
I don't feel resentment at what my STBXAH has done to me. I feel anger, I feel rage. And I think those are real, honest feelings that deserve and need to be fully expressed, fully acknowledged, and fully owned. "Resentment" is just too puny for what I feel. It has an ambivalent, almost evasive quality to it.
We have been wronged. We have been treated badly. We have been lied to, vilified, humiliated, debased, slandered, abused, verbally harassed, physically beaten, terrified, threatened, stolen from, snored at by a drunken jerk on the floor, peed on, pick your description of mistreatment, and it has happened to one or all of us.
"Someone done me wrong", as the song says.
My self esteem, my sense of self, my identity have all been damaged by what my STBXAH has done to me. Whether I unwittingly participated in the process, as I became more and more beaten down - and more and more co-opted - is a totally different discussion. He chose this behavior because he intended to build his own self-worth on the back of my destruction. For him to feel good about himself, he had to disown his own destructive behavior and blame me for it, thereby feeling entitled to be "victimized" thereby perpetuating this cycle and driving it deeper with each go-found.
Nothing I did - nothing any human being does - makes them deserving of the treatment I've highlighted above in bold. I will own my own faults, my own flaws, and my own behavior, good bad or indifferent, and right any wrongs I have done to the best of my ability. But I didn't ever do anything of the magnitude to deserve what I got.
My psychiatrist yesterday had some real insight. He's been around for a long long time, very wise, and I showed him my post which, surprise to me, he found very moving.
He told me about a brilliant psychiatrist he had studied under many years ago. She was Dutch, a Duchess, actually, and at her memorial service, he learned that she had been involved in the Dutch underground in World War II, and had taken care of Jews in hiding from the Nazis.
She said that anger was an emotion that usually related to a problem between people that could potentially be resolved by working it out between them.
Rage, on the other hand, requires real change to overcome it.
I think that says it like it is. I think when we truly believe in the depth of our own emotions, we have a fighting chance of getting through to the light on the other side of this emotional thicket of thorns and darkness.
ShootingStar1
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,452
I agree we're all allowed to be angry, and that letting go of that anger can be misconstrued by our alcoholics as an opportunity to unleash their destruction again. But I also don't think it really matters for them. I think they do it irrespective of how we react within the spectrum between calm and crazy rage.
Audrey1, I think you're on to something here. What you say makes me realize that, for me, acknowledging my anger and rage has nothing to do whatsoever with my STBAXH. All I can get from connecting with him is more of the same.
So I think what I am talking about is what I need to do FOR ME. It doesn't ever have to involved my AH again. Unless he makes radical changes, and he doesn't seem at likely to ever to do so, no interaction with him will ever get me free of my anger and rage.
I think I have to do that on my own, for myself. I am beginning to really understand that he needs to be toast in my emotional life. Gone. Otherwise, I just get back into the "same old, same old" merry-go-round trap.
ShootingStar1
Audrey1, I think you're on to something here. What you say makes me realize that, for me, acknowledging my anger and rage has nothing to do whatsoever with my STBAXH. All I can get from connecting with him is more of the same.
So I think what I am talking about is what I need to do FOR ME. It doesn't ever have to involved my AH again. Unless he makes radical changes, and he doesn't seem at likely to ever to do so, no interaction with him will ever get me free of my anger and rage.
I think I have to do that on my own, for myself. I am beginning to really understand that he needs to be toast in my emotional life. Gone. Otherwise, I just get back into the "same old, same old" merry-go-round trap.
ShootingStar1
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Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 391
Thanks ShootingStar,
I've been thinking about this a lot and appreciate the discussion very much. For me resentment and rage are different. Maybe that is just me. To describe what I feel, I view resentment as a "position" I am taking where rage is much more of an action. Like, when someone hears something offensive or disagreeable, the may say "I resent that remark!" The focus is on the remark - or to put it in context with the discussion here - the focus of resentment is on the behavior or action by our qualifier.
It really is a matter of semantics, I guess.
This distinction has allowed me to feel less guilty about my feelings of resentment.
I am still angry from time to time about current events with my A and things from the past. I believe I will work through those feelings properly and let go of them when it's right. But I will always resent the actions. And I believe at some point I will leave the actions in the past.
Another comparison that came to mind is how my mother would never call me or my siblings a "bad boy" or a "bad girl" - she would focus on the action that was inappropriate. I guess that is what leads me to the way I feel about resentment being something that helps me keep my resolve and stand up for myself and maintain my boundaries - because it focuses on what they did, not their disease or who they are.
Good discussion,
Thanks and hugs,
MamaKit
I've been thinking about this a lot and appreciate the discussion very much. For me resentment and rage are different. Maybe that is just me. To describe what I feel, I view resentment as a "position" I am taking where rage is much more of an action. Like, when someone hears something offensive or disagreeable, the may say "I resent that remark!" The focus is on the remark - or to put it in context with the discussion here - the focus of resentment is on the behavior or action by our qualifier.
It really is a matter of semantics, I guess.
This distinction has allowed me to feel less guilty about my feelings of resentment.
I am still angry from time to time about current events with my A and things from the past. I believe I will work through those feelings properly and let go of them when it's right. But I will always resent the actions. And I believe at some point I will leave the actions in the past.
Another comparison that came to mind is how my mother would never call me or my siblings a "bad boy" or a "bad girl" - she would focus on the action that was inappropriate. I guess that is what leads me to the way I feel about resentment being something that helps me keep my resolve and stand up for myself and maintain my boundaries - because it focuses on what they did, not their disease or who they are.
Good discussion,
Thanks and hugs,
MamaKit
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Join Date: May 2011
Location: Memphis, TN
Posts: 2,884
For me as I worked my way through recovery and did a LOT of introspection I discovered that all my anger, rage and resentments came from my expectations on how I thought my AW should behave.
I could look back over my life and see others who had treated me badly, in fact in my youth I could see those that I had actual physical fights with, yet I didn't have the anger and resentments I did with my wife even though our conflicts were strictly verbal.
She was my wife and I expected her to treat me like she loved me. I expected her to show consideration for my feelings, I expected her to be my partner and soul mate forever.
When I started to let go of my expectations on how I wanted her to behave and accepted the reality that she is what she is my rage and anger started to fade. It took time and work on my part but it worked. I no longer have those feelings very often any more. Even the resentments have faded to a large degree.
I don't have the right to expect her to behave in a manner that is contrary to her nature. No more than I have the right to expect the weather to meet my expectations.
It is a difficult concept to explain and it became clearer as I embraced detachment.
A good story that explains this better than I can:
A fox was swimming across a river when he saw a scorpion stranded on a rock. The fox said to the scorpion if you promise not to sting me I will let you ride on my head. Of course the scorpion promised and they were on their way.
About half way from the rock to the other side the scorpion stung the fox.
"Why did you do that?" said the fox, "now we will both die!".
"It's my nature" said the scorpion, "I sting things".
As for my wife, it's her nature, she's an alcoholic.
Your friend,
I could look back over my life and see others who had treated me badly, in fact in my youth I could see those that I had actual physical fights with, yet I didn't have the anger and resentments I did with my wife even though our conflicts were strictly verbal.
She was my wife and I expected her to treat me like she loved me. I expected her to show consideration for my feelings, I expected her to be my partner and soul mate forever.
When I started to let go of my expectations on how I wanted her to behave and accepted the reality that she is what she is my rage and anger started to fade. It took time and work on my part but it worked. I no longer have those feelings very often any more. Even the resentments have faded to a large degree.
I don't have the right to expect her to behave in a manner that is contrary to her nature. No more than I have the right to expect the weather to meet my expectations.
It is a difficult concept to explain and it became clearer as I embraced detachment.
A good story that explains this better than I can:
A fox was swimming across a river when he saw a scorpion stranded on a rock. The fox said to the scorpion if you promise not to sting me I will let you ride on my head. Of course the scorpion promised and they were on their way.
About half way from the rock to the other side the scorpion stung the fox.
"Why did you do that?" said the fox, "now we will both die!".
"It's my nature" said the scorpion, "I sting things".
As for my wife, it's her nature, she's an alcoholic.
Your friend,
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Location: Pa
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This is the way that I look at resentment. Someone does something that you don't like, and you resent, why? I resented it because I had expectations. With expectations, always comes disappointment. Yes, I did resent that my ex was verbally abusive, a drunk, that he would disappear and not come home for months, and I can go on and on about all of those resentments. I then took it as I had boundaries, and he was stepping all over each one of them. Well why wouldn't anyone get angry about all of this? Wouldn't this be the normal behavior in a marriage? Wow, that drove me crazy for a long time. I wanted to hit him over the head with all those marriage books, and the right way to do things.
But see, I had expectations and having expectations means having disappointments.
Ok, phase 2. Rage or Anger?
Well went into the rage phase for awhile. I got tired of telling him what my expectations were, so I more or less tried to beat it into him. Needless to say that got me no where. Had to accept that "he is who he is", and that not one thing that I could say or do, would change him.
Then the Anger. Now, we all know that anger is an emotion. Anger can be "good or bad". I choose to use my "anger" to get myself out of a situation that was not good for me. I used it to leave my situation.
So, I guess after thinking about this, to me
Resentment = awareness
Rage = trying to control a situation, and control another person
Anger = doing something to better your life
Even after 4 years out, I still have resentment, but I need that to make sure that I keep an eye on those "red flags", so that I never get into that situation again. I use it as a learning experience.
Rage - now this one is calming down a bit. Yes at times I want to go to a flea market and buy a bunch of cheap dishes, and just keep throwing them at a wall, but what good is that doing me? (Still working on this one, lol). But finding out that the rage is still there, because I had expectations. Didn't think that I would be 57 and alone. Thought going into retirement years that we would be going on vacations, visiting our children, grandchildren, and enjoying life.
Anger is what "got me out of there".
Forgiveness, this is what I need to give to myself. Need to "let go, let God". I can't hold onto this stuff anymore. I need to let it all go.
He was who he was, and I am who I am. I don't take his inventory anymore, I just take mine.
Acceptance.
But see, I had expectations and having expectations means having disappointments.
Ok, phase 2. Rage or Anger?
Well went into the rage phase for awhile. I got tired of telling him what my expectations were, so I more or less tried to beat it into him. Needless to say that got me no where. Had to accept that "he is who he is", and that not one thing that I could say or do, would change him.
Then the Anger. Now, we all know that anger is an emotion. Anger can be "good or bad". I choose to use my "anger" to get myself out of a situation that was not good for me. I used it to leave my situation.
So, I guess after thinking about this, to me
Resentment = awareness
Rage = trying to control a situation, and control another person
Anger = doing something to better your life
Even after 4 years out, I still have resentment, but I need that to make sure that I keep an eye on those "red flags", so that I never get into that situation again. I use it as a learning experience.
Rage - now this one is calming down a bit. Yes at times I want to go to a flea market and buy a bunch of cheap dishes, and just keep throwing them at a wall, but what good is that doing me? (Still working on this one, lol). But finding out that the rage is still there, because I had expectations. Didn't think that I would be 57 and alone. Thought going into retirement years that we would be going on vacations, visiting our children, grandchildren, and enjoying life.
Anger is what "got me out of there".
Forgiveness, this is what I need to give to myself. Need to "let go, let God". I can't hold onto this stuff anymore. I need to let it all go.
He was who he was, and I am who I am. I don't take his inventory anymore, I just take mine.
Acceptance.
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My self esteem, my sense of self, my identity have all been damaged by what my STBXAH has done to me. Whether I unwittingly participated in the process, as I became more and more beaten down - and more and more co-opted - is a totally different discussion. He chose this behavior because he intended to build his own self-worth on the back of my destruction. For him to feel good about himself, he had to disown his own destructive behavior and blame me for it, thereby feeling entitled to be "victimized" thereby perpetuating this cycle and driving it deeper with each go-found.
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,349
Originally Posted by MarliMac
OMG, this describes my feelings about what was done to me so well.
I was a victim, but I also chose to remain a victim(and still do, to some degree). I stayed in a bad relationship for many reasons, one of which was that I didn't honestly realize that I had choices that I could make to change both myself and my situation. Now that I'm finally realizing that I can choose differently, I see my resentments as a path to opening my eyes. I'm grateful that I have anger and resentments honestly, because it shows me that I do have feelings and that I can express them and that I do deserve better. Before the resentments came about I was just wallowing in self pity, totally oblivious to how I was allowing the demoralizing of my SELF to continue.
I, personally, don't experience rage but anger and resentments are allows there and festering below the surface. I am finally learning to set my expectations low or to not have them at all. Doesn't make for much of a relationship but at least it's bringing me awareness and that's a heck of a lot better than it's been for me in a long time.
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This is probably more semantics but after I read The Shack, this differentiation really helped me to think differently of some things:
For me resenting is a verb; fluid, changing, actionable. In working through the emotion that drives it, I can convert it into something else.... forgiveness, anger, etc. Whichever I'm more inclined to at the moment.
But the ultimate point is that the actionable part, resenting someone or something, might go through many stages & can ultimately be released.
Resentments, on the other hand, are nouns.... not so actionable. These become dead weights that I carry & only by applying action to them can I release them. It's up to me whether I carry it or let it go. Resentments root deeply in me, become kind of vague over time & get all mixed up together when they relate to the same person/situation.... but the feeling of resenting passes/converts/moves on more easily.
So I agree with you ShootingStar1.... I don't owe any apologies to anyone for my feelings OR letting them be known because I owe it to myself to be honest & call a spade a spade as I see it. So long as I don't create expectations based on this & know that letting my truths be known in a reasonable way is about me letting them go... not about what the other person does with this information once they have it.
It is in converting our verbs to nouns that we weigh ourselves down. Expecting something is perfectly ok....so long as I let go of the results & move on after it does or does not happen the way I expect it to. Having expectations creates rules of right/wrong & opens me up for disappointment.
I know I'm explaining this badly, feel free to ignore me completely!
For me resenting is a verb; fluid, changing, actionable. In working through the emotion that drives it, I can convert it into something else.... forgiveness, anger, etc. Whichever I'm more inclined to at the moment.
But the ultimate point is that the actionable part, resenting someone or something, might go through many stages & can ultimately be released. Resentments, on the other hand, are nouns.... not so actionable. These become dead weights that I carry & only by applying action to them can I release them. It's up to me whether I carry it or let it go. Resentments root deeply in me, become kind of vague over time & get all mixed up together when they relate to the same person/situation.... but the feeling of resenting passes/converts/moves on more easily.
So I agree with you ShootingStar1.... I don't owe any apologies to anyone for my feelings OR letting them be known because I owe it to myself to be honest & call a spade a spade as I see it. So long as I don't create expectations based on this & know that letting my truths be known in a reasonable way is about me letting them go... not about what the other person does with this information once they have it.
It is in converting our verbs to nouns that we weigh ourselves down. Expecting something is perfectly ok....so long as I let go of the results & move on after it does or does not happen the way I expect it to. Having expectations creates rules of right/wrong & opens me up for disappointment.
I know I'm explaining this badly, feel free to ignore me completely!
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I'm pretty much on the same page with Mike.
I stopped having any expectations that my second husband would behave any differently than he did. I acted accordingly, and decided that I did not want to be in a relationship that was like that.
Yes, I was disappointed (VERY) and sad (even MORE very) that it worked out that way, but it was out of my hands. The only thing I could do was to make the best choice for myself and to avoid kicking the man when he was down.
I don't like the things he did during our marriage. That's why I left after giving him what I considered to be a fair opportunity to work on his recovery. He chose not to, and that's a shame, but it's his life, his choice. I have my own. I can honestly say I have let go of the anger that I once felt toward him. I think anger is a natural emotion, but not one that should be nurtured. I don't think it is necessary to keep a fire of anger burning in order to leave, or to take steps to protect yourself from harm.
I stopped having any expectations that my second husband would behave any differently than he did. I acted accordingly, and decided that I did not want to be in a relationship that was like that.
Yes, I was disappointed (VERY) and sad (even MORE very) that it worked out that way, but it was out of my hands. The only thing I could do was to make the best choice for myself and to avoid kicking the man when he was down.
I don't like the things he did during our marriage. That's why I left after giving him what I considered to be a fair opportunity to work on his recovery. He chose not to, and that's a shame, but it's his life, his choice. I have my own. I can honestly say I have let go of the anger that I once felt toward him. I think anger is a natural emotion, but not one that should be nurtured. I don't think it is necessary to keep a fire of anger burning in order to leave, or to take steps to protect yourself from harm.
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,796
For me, part of the expectations come from being lied to about being in recovery. If you are led to believe something, you're going to have some expectations. It's natural to feel resentment, rage, whatever you choose to call it, when these expectations aren't met. Even more so when you don't have a complete understanding of alcoholism in the first place.
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Join Date: Oct 2012
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two different scenarios:
(1) I forgave the xabf for his actions as I had educated myself about the disease. I realised he was responsible for his own actions & path in life. I forgave, let go & the anger disappeared.
(2) I received a lot of mental abuse by substance abuse x husband. I was majorly affected by the abuse but one day many years later I erupted on the phone to him because he was telling my kids I was an alcoholic which was totally untrue & was putting me down to my children. I exploded on the phone & everything I had ever wanted to say but was too afraid to came out. You know what? Our relationship strengthened after that & he became more helpful. The anger lessoned. As for the x best mate that my husband ran off with, I forgave her in the beginning but she continued to do bad things & when she took my house after stating she would never do that that was the last straw. This was a women who when her marriage broke up came to me & I provided food & shelter for her kids & she in turn took my husband. To this day I still have anger for her. She has not parented my kids well either. The reason I'm telling this story is because I was ready to forgive but the fact remains that this once friend does not have morals like mine. She continued to push bad into my life. So you see, I have expectations of how people treat their friends & in this case I feel my expectations are not set too high & that they should be in place, I remain to have anger for her & I will never forgive her.
Hope this makes sense.
(1) I forgave the xabf for his actions as I had educated myself about the disease. I realised he was responsible for his own actions & path in life. I forgave, let go & the anger disappeared.
(2) I received a lot of mental abuse by substance abuse x husband. I was majorly affected by the abuse but one day many years later I erupted on the phone to him because he was telling my kids I was an alcoholic which was totally untrue & was putting me down to my children. I exploded on the phone & everything I had ever wanted to say but was too afraid to came out. You know what? Our relationship strengthened after that & he became more helpful. The anger lessoned. As for the x best mate that my husband ran off with, I forgave her in the beginning but she continued to do bad things & when she took my house after stating she would never do that that was the last straw. This was a women who when her marriage broke up came to me & I provided food & shelter for her kids & she in turn took my husband. To this day I still have anger for her. She has not parented my kids well either. The reason I'm telling this story is because I was ready to forgive but the fact remains that this once friend does not have morals like mine. She continued to push bad into my life. So you see, I have expectations of how people treat their friends & in this case I feel my expectations are not set too high & that they should be in place, I remain to have anger for her & I will never forgive her.
Hope this makes sense.
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I agree with many of the posts.
Resentments for me have a nuance of internal. Of stuffing, or festering of simmering of old stuff fermenting over time. I have had many I needed to work through in my recovery, and while often I get to them because of loving a problem drinker there are usually threads to long before he was in my life and often trace to childhood. I am actually having physical symptoms from some of these at the moment, and in the last three weeks in therapy sessions (and my training) am actually burping uncontrollably for hours on end. Then I start yawning. Very strange and has not been related to food but I think is about how long and hard I stuffed things. My resentments almost always have a sense of "I failed" in there somehow.
For me anger has been more external (only after getting some counseling). There have also been some physical signs/symptoms but more in the moment. They come up when a boundary (which I am finally learning how to set) is crossed. For me anger has been newer, cleaner and often I am able to express it and be done. It does not fester.
Having anger for me has been a sign of health. I have not gotten out of control with it and I express it okay.
Resentment has not been that way. I self-destruct, whip myself and use other unhealthy coping mechanisms.
Thanks for the topic. The nuances we all have been discussing has been great.
Resentments for me have a nuance of internal. Of stuffing, or festering of simmering of old stuff fermenting over time. I have had many I needed to work through in my recovery, and while often I get to them because of loving a problem drinker there are usually threads to long before he was in my life and often trace to childhood. I am actually having physical symptoms from some of these at the moment, and in the last three weeks in therapy sessions (and my training) am actually burping uncontrollably for hours on end. Then I start yawning. Very strange and has not been related to food but I think is about how long and hard I stuffed things. My resentments almost always have a sense of "I failed" in there somehow.
For me anger has been more external (only after getting some counseling). There have also been some physical signs/symptoms but more in the moment. They come up when a boundary (which I am finally learning how to set) is crossed. For me anger has been newer, cleaner and often I am able to express it and be done. It does not fester.
Having anger for me has been a sign of health. I have not gotten out of control with it and I express it okay.
Resentment has not been that way. I self-destruct, whip myself and use other unhealthy coping mechanisms.
Thanks for the topic. The nuances we all have been discussing has been great.
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Join Date: Jun 2007
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LR, very interesting.
I've been thinking about this subject for the past 2 days, because anger and resentment are seemingly so intertwined. I think (for me) resentments are/were insidious little bastards that were sucking my soul dry and turning me into a bitter resentful person - arising because I had *expectations* of my AH that were never going to be met. (and eventually I learned I couldn't live like that anymore)
Anger, on the other hand, is all about boundaries, and is SO IMPORTANT to be able to express. As a kid of an alcoholic, I learned that avoiding conflict was best, so I learned to swallow anger as it nearly always led to conflict. I am only recently learning to deal with anger constructively when I feel it.
Suppressing anger WILL make one sick. (and the other side of the coin: carrying resentments will also make one sick IMO) Here's Dr. Gabor Mate talking about psychoneuroimmunology - Dr. Gabor Maté: When the Body Says No: Understanding the Stress-Disease Connection 1 of 2 - YouTube It's only 10 minutes and worth a watch IMO. He said that when he was practicing family medicine, he noticed that the vast majority of people who suffered from autoimmune disorders like rheumatoid arthritis, ALS - were almost all: people-pleasers who suppressed their own emotions, who were caretakers of others... Who does that sound like to you?
CODIES!!!
I've been thinking about this subject for the past 2 days, because anger and resentment are seemingly so intertwined. I think (for me) resentments are/were insidious little bastards that were sucking my soul dry and turning me into a bitter resentful person - arising because I had *expectations* of my AH that were never going to be met. (and eventually I learned I couldn't live like that anymore)
Anger, on the other hand, is all about boundaries, and is SO IMPORTANT to be able to express. As a kid of an alcoholic, I learned that avoiding conflict was best, so I learned to swallow anger as it nearly always led to conflict. I am only recently learning to deal with anger constructively when I feel it.
Suppressing anger WILL make one sick. (and the other side of the coin: carrying resentments will also make one sick IMO) Here's Dr. Gabor Mate talking about psychoneuroimmunology - Dr. Gabor Maté: When the Body Says No: Understanding the Stress-Disease Connection 1 of 2 - YouTube It's only 10 minutes and worth a watch IMO. He said that when he was practicing family medicine, he noticed that the vast majority of people who suffered from autoimmune disorders like rheumatoid arthritis, ALS - were almost all: people-pleasers who suppressed their own emotions, who were caretakers of others... Who does that sound like to you?
CODIES!!!
Last edited by amooseoncebitmysister; 02-06-2013 at 04:13 PM. Reason: linky
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What very interesting responses! I'm thinking a lot of them over.
So, then, what is the difference between having "expectations" and expecting someone who makes a promise, someone who makes a commitment, to keep that commitment?
If a spouse promises in the marriage ceremony to "love, honor and cherish" his or her partner, haven't they then committed themselves to a certain standard of behavior?
In a legal contract, when two parties agree to the terms, and one party defaults, the other doesn't get chastised for expecting too much. It is never framed that one party had "expectations" and when the other party breaches, the party with "expectations" should have known better than to "expect".
Why are we exempting emotional commitments from the performance rigor we expect of legal contracts?
I can understand that we, as the wronged party, may end up more emotionally healthy when we move on from "expecting" our alcoholic partners from behaving in any normal manner.
But it is still a breach of promise on their part, no matter why they did it, no matter how ill they may be.
I have an gut feeling that I can't quite articulate yet that this question may really matter. There are a lot of "victims" in lives entwined with alcoholism. It almost seems that "expectations" and "victimhood" are part of the emotional underbelly of living with this disease that get us so off-track from what is fair and what is not fair.
Part of being co-dependent is not recognizing who owns what. That doesn't happen in legal contracts. So I am wondering how this all ties together, if it does.
ShootingStar1
ShootingStar1
So, then, what is the difference between having "expectations" and expecting someone who makes a promise, someone who makes a commitment, to keep that commitment?
If a spouse promises in the marriage ceremony to "love, honor and cherish" his or her partner, haven't they then committed themselves to a certain standard of behavior?
In a legal contract, when two parties agree to the terms, and one party defaults, the other doesn't get chastised for expecting too much. It is never framed that one party had "expectations" and when the other party breaches, the party with "expectations" should have known better than to "expect".
Why are we exempting emotional commitments from the performance rigor we expect of legal contracts?
I can understand that we, as the wronged party, may end up more emotionally healthy when we move on from "expecting" our alcoholic partners from behaving in any normal manner.
But it is still a breach of promise on their part, no matter why they did it, no matter how ill they may be.
I have an gut feeling that I can't quite articulate yet that this question may really matter. There are a lot of "victims" in lives entwined with alcoholism. It almost seems that "expectations" and "victimhood" are part of the emotional underbelly of living with this disease that get us so off-track from what is fair and what is not fair.
Part of being co-dependent is not recognizing who owns what. That doesn't happen in legal contracts. So I am wondering how this all ties together, if it does.
ShootingStar1
ShootingStar1
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I hope LaTeeDa might post on expectations. I have learned a lot from her posts about it.
In a nutshell she talks about how having expectations is not always the problem, but having expectations of someone in active addiction can be. There is more too it but for me that really helped.
I had expectations of the role of a "husband," the person I had it of though was actively in his addiction and it was not very reasonable that he could meet my expectations in that capacity.
In a nutshell she talks about how having expectations is not always the problem, but having expectations of someone in active addiction can be. There is more too it but for me that really helped.
I had expectations of the role of a "husband," the person I had it of though was actively in his addiction and it was not very reasonable that he could meet my expectations in that capacity.
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This month is one year since I kicked my XA to the curb when he relapsed for the 10+ time in the 4 years we were together.
Resentment, Anger, Rage were at a boiling point and I hate to say it I honestly could have been capable of doing something that could have gotten me a lethal injection or fried in an electric chair (we now inject in my state).
Seething with unresolved anger all the time makes us unwell both physically, mentally and spiritually and because the disease is progressive and we are all suffering from the family disease of alcoholism we all get sicker.
Getting so sick... so angry... so resentful does often bring resolution because we just cannot... simply cannot take it anymore. There comes the tipping point...
But in looking back on the four years that I chose to do the alcoholic dance and he chose to manipulate and use me as his personal enabler it was my personal choices that determined my destiny.
I allowed him to behave as he did to me because I "trained" him how he was able to treat me without consequences. I had no effective boundaries.
Had I been healthy to begin with and had established healthy lifestyle boundaries I never would have gotten emeshed with such a broken, immature, selfish person in the first place. While he was sober at the time the red flags were there... plenty of them!
My point is that while resentment, anger and even rage can have a constructive result it is NOT THE BEST WAY to resolve a dysfunctional relationship with an alcoholic. Being able to rationalize, reason and see the truth with a "new pair of glasses" that recovery brings and allow these discoveries about ourselves and our significant others to calmly resolve how we will react to bad behaviors.
I did rage at times. Once I threatened to shoot him with my weapon if he picked up a drink. I meant it. That is scary. Letting our emotions take us to those dark places ... those crazy places is not good. I am capable of homicide. I know this. If I am threatened or in danger I can and will pull the trigger. On one occasion... on crazy, crazy rage filled night I had a moment.. a brief moment... where I honestly came close to putting a bullet between his eyes.
Emotions are something that our HP intends for us to use for compasses... when we are distressed we need to seek out why we are we are and how we can resolve the reasons we are stressed and distressed so we can move forward.
I am happier than I have ever been. I am wiser than I have ever been. The answers were there all the time (Just like Dorothy found out in Oz) we just don't "see" them because we want a different outcome or reality!
The answers are in us not the alcoholic. The person we are looking for is us. Learning why we chose a mate with such "holes" in their soul or severe brokenness is when we grow above the state of insanity we have been living under.
Then we choose whether we wish to stay or go. Most alcoholics don't recover... some become abstinent but it is a small minority that become the men of character, integrity, honor and devoted husbands and fathers we are dreaming we want them to be.
You have to accept who they are in the "NOW" and if who they are now causes huge rages and resentments you are shortening your life physically and harming yourself in every other way as well.
That is why Alanon and other recovery methods teach detachment.. because it is way to survive and thrive in a situation where you under tremendous stress.
I used to rage when pushed over the edge... just like dear old sociopath alcoholic ragaholic dad... I came by it honest. But it NEVER did any good for me even when I won... and yes...
He was terrified and he did not drink. Not at that moment. But he drank again...over and over. So what did my rage accomplish? Nothing.
Resentment, Anger, Rage were at a boiling point and I hate to say it I honestly could have been capable of doing something that could have gotten me a lethal injection or fried in an electric chair (we now inject in my state).
Seething with unresolved anger all the time makes us unwell both physically, mentally and spiritually and because the disease is progressive and we are all suffering from the family disease of alcoholism we all get sicker.
Getting so sick... so angry... so resentful does often bring resolution because we just cannot... simply cannot take it anymore. There comes the tipping point...
But in looking back on the four years that I chose to do the alcoholic dance and he chose to manipulate and use me as his personal enabler it was my personal choices that determined my destiny.
I allowed him to behave as he did to me because I "trained" him how he was able to treat me without consequences. I had no effective boundaries.
Had I been healthy to begin with and had established healthy lifestyle boundaries I never would have gotten emeshed with such a broken, immature, selfish person in the first place. While he was sober at the time the red flags were there... plenty of them!
My point is that while resentment, anger and even rage can have a constructive result it is NOT THE BEST WAY to resolve a dysfunctional relationship with an alcoholic. Being able to rationalize, reason and see the truth with a "new pair of glasses" that recovery brings and allow these discoveries about ourselves and our significant others to calmly resolve how we will react to bad behaviors.
I did rage at times. Once I threatened to shoot him with my weapon if he picked up a drink. I meant it. That is scary. Letting our emotions take us to those dark places ... those crazy places is not good. I am capable of homicide. I know this. If I am threatened or in danger I can and will pull the trigger. On one occasion... on crazy, crazy rage filled night I had a moment.. a brief moment... where I honestly came close to putting a bullet between his eyes.
Emotions are something that our HP intends for us to use for compasses... when we are distressed we need to seek out why we are we are and how we can resolve the reasons we are stressed and distressed so we can move forward.
I am happier than I have ever been. I am wiser than I have ever been. The answers were there all the time (Just like Dorothy found out in Oz) we just don't "see" them because we want a different outcome or reality!
The answers are in us not the alcoholic. The person we are looking for is us. Learning why we chose a mate with such "holes" in their soul or severe brokenness is when we grow above the state of insanity we have been living under.
Then we choose whether we wish to stay or go. Most alcoholics don't recover... some become abstinent but it is a small minority that become the men of character, integrity, honor and devoted husbands and fathers we are dreaming we want them to be.
You have to accept who they are in the "NOW" and if who they are now causes huge rages and resentments you are shortening your life physically and harming yourself in every other way as well.
That is why Alanon and other recovery methods teach detachment.. because it is way to survive and thrive in a situation where you under tremendous stress.
I used to rage when pushed over the edge... just like dear old sociopath alcoholic ragaholic dad... I came by it honest. But it NEVER did any good for me even when I won... and yes...
He was terrified and he did not drink. Not at that moment. But he drank again...over and over. So what did my rage accomplish? Nothing.
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Join Date: May 2011
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Hi Shootingstar. That was a great question. I'm going to handle the easy part first.
A contract is a legal obligation entered into by all parties hopefully with their eyes wide open and everyone knowing before hand exactly what is expected.
An expectation is different. An expectation is like a barbed hook that is embedded in the flesh. It isn't always clear to all the parties what the expectations are and are often vague, like love, honor and cherish. When an expectation isn't met the hook digs deeper causing suffering.
The big problem is that we plant the hook in our own bodies and when the suffering begins because of the unmet expectation the suffering is ours.
We have basically two choices here. We can continue to suffer demanding the other person meets our expectation and continue to suffer.
Or, we can remove the hook, recognize that this person is incapable of meeting our needs and move on. Doing this ends or at least lessens our suffering.
The first is a form of control, trying to force another person to change and meet our standards. The second is simply seeing reality as it is.
Your friend,
A contract is a legal obligation entered into by all parties hopefully with their eyes wide open and everyone knowing before hand exactly what is expected.
An expectation is different. An expectation is like a barbed hook that is embedded in the flesh. It isn't always clear to all the parties what the expectations are and are often vague, like love, honor and cherish. When an expectation isn't met the hook digs deeper causing suffering.
The big problem is that we plant the hook in our own bodies and when the suffering begins because of the unmet expectation the suffering is ours.
We have basically two choices here. We can continue to suffer demanding the other person meets our expectation and continue to suffer.
Or, we can remove the hook, recognize that this person is incapable of meeting our needs and move on. Doing this ends or at least lessens our suffering.
The first is a form of control, trying to force another person to change and meet our standards. The second is simply seeing reality as it is.
Your friend,
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Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 391
This is good stuff!
There are bells going off left and right.
I'm really rethinking my definitions of resentment, anger, rage. I'm seeing how expectations weave in and out of each -AND how hard it is not to have expectations. But I believe that expectations are at the root of this.
I think I was trained to just accept and swallow the disrespect and bad behavior when I was with my A. It kept the peace - temporarily. It never seemed to be helpful for me to stand my ground and express my feelings on things. Such action by me was met with such a bad response from him. I was convinced that it was my action that was bad. And growing up, expressing anger was bad!!!!
I may be attributing self-respecting boundaries to resentment.
I recognize that I'm not really adding much to this discussion....I'm just sharing how helpful it is to me in sorting things out. I know now that I still have expectations of my A even though I have a protection order against him and we will soon (God willing) be divorced. Crazy.
MamaKit
There are bells going off left and right.
I'm really rethinking my definitions of resentment, anger, rage. I'm seeing how expectations weave in and out of each -AND how hard it is not to have expectations. But I believe that expectations are at the root of this.
I think I was trained to just accept and swallow the disrespect and bad behavior when I was with my A. It kept the peace - temporarily. It never seemed to be helpful for me to stand my ground and express my feelings on things. Such action by me was met with such a bad response from him. I was convinced that it was my action that was bad. And growing up, expressing anger was bad!!!!
I may be attributing self-respecting boundaries to resentment.
I recognize that I'm not really adding much to this discussion....I'm just sharing how helpful it is to me in sorting things out. I know now that I still have expectations of my A even though I have a protection order against him and we will soon (God willing) be divorced. Crazy.
MamaKit
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