kale

With my husband and I, we'll be basically getting along all nice-like and then he will turn whatever we are doing into an argument focusing on all the things I am doing wrong and have "always" done wrong, "time and time again." He feels so hopeless because I am so bad.

He starts the never ending cycle of argument where I can't defend myself from his charges because a) his charges are so diffuse and unverifiable that it's not possible and b) because any attempt to defend myself just brings on more accusations that I'm not really listening to him (or whatever it is I'm supposedly doing wrong).

I want less endless arguments. I hate them. I don't need to be right. I would love some help in getting out of them. He responds angrily to things like, "I'm sorry you feel that way." and identifies them as platitudes, perhaps because my emotions are less about caring at this point than about discomfort and irritation. I don't know what else to say. I'm actually sick of trying to game him in order to stop the crazy arguing.

I want to detach, but I need some help with the language and behavior of detachment. And maybe some pointers about what behavior my husband might exhibit when I do detach. Maybe I'm doing it correctly but I'm just disturbed at his response.

Thanks.

inpieces314

This is my problem. I 100% all the time have to be right.

I used to argue with him until he understood that. Now, he just fights to prove me wrong. It ends up ending with something totally different than what it started about.

Recently, I stopped arguing with him. Although that has forced him to go a lot deeper and a lot meaner to get anything out of me.

I am assuming he will come back, because he moved out last week. Why shouldn't I? He always has in the past, this time is no different. BUT this time I am ready for him. I have post-its all over the house that say "Walk away." No matter where we are when he tries to argue, no matter what he says to try to get a reaction out of me, I am going to see a post-it. And then I will walk away. I have to remind myself, because by the time I remember, the argument is already half over, the damage is already done, and I already hate him all over again while he is thinking of ways to get sympathy from everyone else. This time, I will see it.

I used to enjoy arguing, with anyone, all the time, I mean, I'm in school to be a LAWYER! But now, it is too much. And just the thought of whatever he is going to say to try to hurt me makes me cringe.

LexieCat

How about just saying, "I'm not up for arguing about it. I'm going to (read, take a walk, fix dinner, lie down)." Repeat as necessary.

It is very difficult not to engage after you've said it twice, but eventually, if it takes saying it a dozen times, he will give up.

Don't expect him to be happy about it. I don't know your husband, you do. He might slam doors, stomp around, get in your face. Unless you sense he might become violent, keep calm and keep repeating.

StarCat

I got these from a book, "The Gaslight Effect"

Things You Can Say to Opt Out of a Power Struggle While Still Expressing Anger

Please stop talking to me in that tone; I don't like it.

I can't hear what you're really saying as long as you're yelling.

I can't hear what you're really saying as long as you're speaking to me with contempt.

I don't want to talk while you're yelling at me.

I don't want to talk while you're speaking to me with contempt.

I am not going to continue this argument right now.

From my point of view, you're distorting reality, and I really don't like it. I'll talk to you later, when I'm feeling calmer.

Perhaps you didn't intend to hurt my feelings, but I'm too upset to talk right now. We can talk about this later.


And then the more general ones...

Things You Can Say to Opt Out of a Power Struggle

You're right, but I don't want to keep arguing about this.

You're right, but I don't want to be talked to that way.

I'm happy to continue this conversation without name-calling.

I'm not comfortable with where this conversation is going. Let's re-visit it later.

I think this conversation has gone as far as it can go.

I don't think I can be constructive right now. Let's talk about this at another time.

I think we have to agree to disagree.

I don't want to continue this argument.

I don't want to continue this conversation right now.

I hear you, and I'm going to think about that. But I don't want to keep talking about it right now.

I'd really like to continue this conversation, but I'm not willing to do so unless we can do it in a more pleasant tone.

I don't like the way I'm feeling right now, and I'm not willing to continue this conversation.

You may not be aware of it, but you're telling me that I don't know what reality is. And respectfully, I don't agree. I love you, but I won't talk to you about this.

I love having intimate conversations with you, but not when you're putting me down.

It may not be your intention to put me down, but I feel put down, and I'm not going to continue this conversation.

This is not a good time for me to talk about this. Let's agree on another time that works for both of us.

dandylion

Dear Kale, it sounds like he has a great need to get some reaction out of you. It must be very important for him to keep the focus on you in order to avoid any blame or responsibility himself.

If your verbal responses to him do not work, perhaps removing yourself, physically, from where he is might help. Going to a friend's house, the library, for a walk, spending the night in a hotel, etc.

These are simply SUGGESTIONS from me. (simply refusing to argue back worked with my A's stopped them in their tracks). You know your husband--we don't. You will have to ascess whether he might become angered--and aggressive or violent--to certain actions. I remember that you posted that he punched the wall and hurt his hand pretty bad during one of your arguments.

There is a lot of good information on what domestic abuse is--both verbal and physical online. You might think about talking confidentially to a local domestic hotline in order to get support, should you need it.

I'm just saying to think of the bigger picture here, in case he is not dissuaded from the constant arguing by the "usual" methods.

Keep posting and let us know how you are doing!

sincerely, dandylion

PippiLngstockng

Hi Kale,

I spent years trying to get my AH to stop the argue crazies. I would try to get him to calm down and nothing I could say or not say would work. I couldn't figure it out. When I would try to get away he would block the door or car and desperately look for more words to keep the argument going. He was so loud the children could hear - even in the middle of the night. I, like you, looked for a solution. I tried leaving as soon as he got home. Then living on another side of the house, practically. I couldn't even come downstairs for dinner cause I'd feel that tension.

So then I went to Al-Anon and tried "I am sorry you feel that way", etc. sent him into a rage.

You know what ultimately worked? Moving across the ocean, making new friends, and not answering his calls!

I probably could have just moved out of state, but it's more romantic this way . Seriously, though, the argue crazies were just miserable. I am sorry you have that in your life!

SoloMio

kale, this is the second time I've read a post of yours and have been convinced we're married to the same guy.

As a matter of fact, I watched the Master of Manipulation trying to work his magic with the pastor of our church yesterday. Last week, AH had been in charge of an event where volunteers were needed. He yelled at one of the volunteers because she didn't do things exactly as he wanted and he wound up leaving the event, and leaving everyone else buzzing with gossip. The volunteer went crying to the pastor. This is from a guy who wrote a script for the rest of the volunteers admonishing them to treat others with kindness and respect, as Christ would do.

Yesterday he spoke with the pastor about it, and thankfully the pastor would not let him off the hook. Every time he would pull an insane turnaround, the pastor called him on it. It was beautiful. The pastor spoke clearly, assertively, did not let AH's "charm" get to him and simply told AH that he did not want the member of his church putting up with that kind of BS.

I think what being in on that conversation did for me was validate (not that I need that validation anymore) that I'm not the crazy one. And it also allowed me to sit in the passenger seat for once and see it played out in a way that I could see it and be perfectly detached as a third party... and what I saw was that his behavior was really was so clearly immature, grandiose, deflecting, egotistic.. etc. Even the pastor called him out on having such a big ego.

Anyway, since the first of the year there have been a couple of really unpleasant things that have happened as a result of AH's manipulative language and unreasonable, immature behavior, so I have made a vow to simply do small talk and nothing else. I am not engaging. Period. When he baits me, I say generic things like 'uh huh'. "I hear you." "I'm sorry you feel that way."

And I'm also removing myself physically when necessary.

ZiggyB

Hi
I am so sorry, I hate arguing too. I am extremely sensitive to conflict and criticism and the axbf was great at creating both. Sometimes I would tell him "I don't want to argue with you" or "I'm not going to argue about it", but then again we lived in separate apartments so it was easy for me to get away from him if I needed to.

Sometimes he would passive-aggressively mutter things under his breath just loud enough so I could hear them and when I would ask "What did you say?" he would answer "Nothing" but I usually knew anyway. In my opinion he was never happy unless he was making me miserable. ;-(

Pelican

For me, the best response to someone who is trying to tell me how horribly wrong I am over and over, who insists on getting a negative reaction out of me to feed their pathetic ego will get this reaction:

grab my keys and go.

I do not need to be a verbal punching bag to a disordered personality.

The reason responses like "I'm sorry you feel that way" and "I can see why you think that" don't work is because you have to physically remove yourself from their vicinity to prevent further abuse (tongue lashings from that person).

He doesn't like those responses because those responses keep you from engaging in his rage-filled verbal attacks. Those responses are not meant to make him happy, but meant to protect you from engaging in his drama.

The healthy responses may make him mad, but he can just get glad in the same pants he got mad in!

Said

I've always liked the two responses I learned in Al-Anon: "You may be right" and "Tell me more". They are unexpected and sometimes will shut an A down right in his tracks.

PohsFriend

Insert my usual recommendation that you purchase John Gottmans 7 principles for a successful marriage or whatever it's called. His chapters on effective communication rewrite the rules and it works brilliantly.

A couple of his principles regarding how to ensure failure-
1. Harsh startup: if a discussion begins angrily it is rare that it will turn around
2. His 'four horsemen of the apocalypse' - criticism, contempt, defensiveness and stonewalling.

Wife and I read it together and it was a game changer. So often an argument goes south because criticism and contempt (sarcasm is contemptuous) sneak in.

A couple other things - this one from my therapist...
If you are in a tug of war, just drop the rope. It works in an argument like it does in a real tug of war. The other guy has to stop pulling or they fall on their tail.

The best thing I've found, but perhaps the toughest one when you are mad...
I've noticed that the things I just HATE are things she hates too. When I go to her after an argument and point out something that bothered me she might get defensive. When I make the same complaint but word it by pointing out a time when I did the exact same thing to her and she did not like it and then apologize for when I did it then she usually gets it, appreciates me leading with my own apology and apologizes. Warning - do this one and have the other person pile on u for being wrong without acknowledging their own part and it is tough to bite your lip!

Naturally, there needs to be a disclaimer that you can't have a rational conversation with an active alcoholic... Might as well argue with a phone pole.

Gottmans book is awesome for you logical types, no smarmy pop psychiatry in there, he and his wife were longtime mc's and realized they were frauds - it wasn't working. They set up a lab in an apartment and brought couples in for the weekend wearing heart monitors and being recorded and let them argue. They identified what really causes divorce and what supposed truths are crap. They can predict with like 90+ accuracy which couples are headed to divorce court. Little things like the physiological differences between how men and women respond to stress. Once a man is in fight or flight mode forget the conversation - he's going to get mad and bark or withdraw and stonewall...

Don't want to spoil the ending but all couples fight, learning to spot the destructive things and learning to make and accept repair attempts make all the difference.

Repair attempts are things like "ya know what? That was out of line.. Can I take that back and try again?" ...announcing directly or indirectly that things are not going the way you intended and you want it to be better.

So in the original post it sounds like one of those situations where you are getting flooded - seems like everything you do is wrong. If you disagree you are defensive, If you bite your tongue and say "I'm sorry you feel that way" it pisses him off - patronizing.

It's a nasty circle of what I call butchoos... You wrestle back and forth with ok I did that butchoo did this etcetera in an endless loop. It's so common here because active addicts want to deflect th conversation and spotlight off their stuff and onto you - can't attack while you are back pedaling now can you?

My personal pathology from growing up around an angry NPD, bipolar borderline is an absolutely frightening ability to manipulate chaotic situations and calm everyone down... A good thing or a bad thing depending on how I use it. The manipulative ******* in me is really good at finding ways to box someone into a corner where they can't hit me without looking like a jerk..

Some lessons I am learning right now:
1. Don't just do something, stand there... Sometimes a response is unwise or not urgent
2. Nothing confuses an irrational person like agreeing with them. So he's insisting that you did x, y and z? Try your best to think of a time where you did do that, admit it and apologize and promise to work on it... Makes it hard NOT to relax that attacking/defensive posture and its human nature to try to find some fault to acknowledge when someone is apologizing to you....

The tough part? It requires dropping that rope and giving up the I AM RIGHT! Argument. Right is lonely. I'd rather have peace and serenity than be right these days

thislonelygirl

I just suck up my pride and agree woth him. If hes wasted beyond belif
Which my ah has done....even agreeing doesnt end it not untill he passes out.
Its horrible and making a mountain out of a mole hill as simple as the milk is bad in the fridge.
Wish there were right words to say but unlikely.
More of get out or he gets sober sadly

thislonelygirl

A few times this worked unless completely wasted in which case ah was so confussed
All he could do was get mad ....I think at that point its mad because he is so drunk and confussed about what going on

PohsFriend

If someone is drunk I'd just stick to "I will discuss this with you when you haven't been drinking'.

Actually, I'd wait til they were sober and reasonable and you are having a good talk and THEN say "Hey - can we agree that if one of us has been drinking and we argue then the other can just call timeout until the next day? ". One of us is different than saying "you".

Another thought - say you don't want to fight so can you write it out for me so I can read it and put the time and thought into the response that it deserves?

....if they are hammered they won't recall or admit what they said but they can't deny what they wrote - might surprise them

Pelican

BAHAHA, thanks man! That was funny! Drunks being given the task of writing out their feelings, bhahahahahaha

PohsFriend

Yeah.... Kinda makes responding a moot point unless you want to make a point. I wish I had done that some when my ex was drunk - she always looked innocently at he MC and said 'I never said that! He's delusional!'. ...until the day I pulled out the little tape recorder and she backpedaled like an nfl cornerback on 3rd and 27... Made me wonder if she had really been blacking out or if she remembered it all but did not want to face it.

I'd love to hear someone report back on what happens if you call timeout and ask someone who is drunk to write it out so you can really give it the attention it deserves. Nsadly, Poh is too reasonable and calm these days for me to try it :-)

Just kidding, I am so thankful that she is!

Audrey1

If only we all had this talent 24/7. I've become much, much better at calling my partner on his ridiculous tangential arguments, but still occasionally lose it. Once my sense of frustration comes into it, it's hard to keep everything clear, and avoid the blur settling in until I lose complete track of what's going on. This is made even more difficult by the fact that we speak different languages, so although we both speak English, his isn't 100% we can both be confused by what the other really means. On top of that, I have an unnaturally quiet voice

At the peak of these arguments, tired little voice in my head always calls out: "Just apologise and it will all be over and we can get on with it", but I just can't bring myself to do it unless I am actually in the wrong. Thankfully, I haven't slipped that far back.

FireSprite

When I first started to see the merry-go-round of our arguments, I found that I couldn't handle engaging at all. No matter how I approached it, the arguments escalated, the door opened wider for his A-style rants & I lost my composure faster & faster.

I found the only way to control what came out of my mouth was to not respond at all. 'Like the old adage, if you can't say anything nice....' Instead of interacting, I just observed. It made me understand detachment a little better - to see it but not get involved.

AH would still go on & on & on but eventually even he became aware of how loud his voice was & how HE was the only one being aggressive in the conversation & it would take all the wind out of his sails. It's hard to fight with someone who won't fight back & he rarely got to the bully stage. I referred to it as the Tazmanian Devil Syndrome because he would spin & spin & spin & spew & spew & spew & then finally exhaust himself from the effort.

Eventually I was able to say things like, "I'm not having an argument right now, I'm going to x,y,z instead" but it took me a while to get there.

MarliMac

My AH was pretty persistent in his arguments. When I would try to stay neutral and not engage, he would get louder and louder and madder and madder, to the point I would be afraid that he would smash my head into the wall. He would make the argument about the fact that I wasn't answering him.

I never found a way to end the arguments, I just had to endure them the best I could.

kale

I read all of this and what I think is "I'm so tired of managing this." I'm so tired about asking others how to manage it. I don't want to bend over backwards to avoid unreasonable wrath. I want "normal." I want to feel loved. I can't picture myself in this marriage very much longer.

I want to choose my fights in life as much as possible and this particular fight sucks.