PohsFriend

Poh was afraid to go because she figured it was religous in nature and didn't really care to be preached at.

In my 20s I did a bit of searching because I quite frankly wanted and needed what my friends who had a strong faith had - I WANTED to know someone else was driving... did the incantations and was told I was saved but ....well, there was no moment. I was told I must not have asked earnestly etcetera which was bull but well-meaning bull.

I took a different tack at that point.... I noticed the Big 3 all pretty much had a similar message. I read the texts as if it were entitled "Guide to a Happy Life" and frankly it works pretty well that way. I joke a bit but I'm poking fun at me, not anyone's religion or beliefs. I'm actually very envious of those who had the lightbulb go off, maybe mine will one day.

Meanwhile, man there is some great stuff in there and I like reading it myself and thinking/praying/meditating on it.

Here is a personal favorite....
So I was listening to a guy explain to a girl how the Bible says that women should submit to their husband and that penis==boss. OK, so my first thought was "Dude... you have NO game whatsoever!" My second thought was.... What God would really trust us tripods that much, seriously? So I figured if God said it she must have been kidding and read it for myself. I love the 'meaning' I found...

It said "husbands love your wife" "Be not unkind to her" "love your wife as Christ loved the Church" ...or close to that, it was a long time ago.

So what came out the other side of my brain was that yes, it did say that in the event of a good faith difference of opinion the tie goes to the man - somebody has to make a call.

But the mysoginists who interpret that as "Shuddup and do what I tells you to, wooman!" missed the catch. ...go back to that "love her as Christ loved the Church" part.

Well Crap... so I get to make the call, whooooopeeee.... the catch is that I have to put what's best for my wife and kids by extrapolation AHEAD of what I WANT. Hmmm.... How did this guy love the church? Paid for everyone ELSE'S sins with his own life.

So I walked away from that brain cramping session with a simple understanding of what my job is:
Be a good husband. Be kind rather than harsh, put my family ahead of my selfish desires and oh yeah - it doesn't say squat about 'but only if she is a good wife and does her part' now does it? Nope - there's no sub paragraph B stating that in the event that your wife is riding around on a broom all pissed off because some chick from Kansas dropped a house on her sister then you are off the hook... nope. My job is to be a good husband, period. Her end is her problem.

....and that kinda brings us to why we go to al-anon and work steps when we are not the 'problem', doesn't it? The steps are all about having a settled heart and a serene mind.

Be honest about who you are
Get the things you feel guilty or ashamed of off your chest and let go of them
Try to make up for the things you've done wrong
Help yourself heal through serving others
Try to do the right thing and if you fail, get back up and try again, don't kick your own ass when life is kicking it for you...

That makes my agnosticism easier and I don't feel like a bad guy for not getting it... good grief, like I don't blame myself for enough **** without worrying that God called and I missed it or something!

As for the 'but if you don't have faith in the right way you will burn in hell for eternity" line I've heard from some Christians, it reminds me of the Islamic radicals who say that theirs is the religion of peace, if you don't agree I Keel You! (Channeling Jeff Dunham).

I figure if it turns out there is a God and we had a mixup on communication he probably won't torture me, more likely he'll do what dad's do, tell me that had I been playing the music at a reasonable lever I WOULD have heard him then roll his eyes, shake his head and give me a hug..... I figure if he made me then he made me inquisitive and willing to ask questions so how pissed can he really be if I looked and asked and missed the reply?


LOL. I guess at the end of the day there is what I know and don't know. I don't know if there is an all powerful god pulling the strings, I do know that I'm not him :-)

AtATotalLoss

Poh... *snort You have such a way with words!

I have been struggling with this in the meetings I have attended. I understand the rationale. I understand the purpose of the steps. I believe there is growth to be had by following them.
I went to Catholic school as a child. I remember one time in our bible study (think I was about 9) when the priest was explaining that the bible was the word of God and that men had listened to God and written the words down. Me being me, I asked him "How do we know that the men heard God right ir wrote it exactly like he wanted?" Honest question, and I know now that answering it would have created a lot more questions, but the priest pretty much told me that you're not a good person if you question the word of God. Bugged me then and bugs me now.
I think this is the crux of my issue with meetings and the steps. You go. You listen. I do appreciate that and don't mind listening to people's stories. But you are not allowed or encouraged to ask questions. If you do, then you aren't working the steps. If you question the steps, you are in denial. I have always learned by asking questions, by asking questions of people who know more than I do about any given subject. It doesn't immediately follow that I will use their example or answer, but I have it if I want it. I like learning and I want to find somewhere that I can go that I will be able to both absorb info and ask questions. And every meeting I have been to thus far I leave with more questions than I showed up with and have no one to ask them to.
I can't be the only one that feels this way, I hope.
I don't know. Is fairly early here and I think I need some more coffee...

m1k3

I think you have to look at the time frame AA and Alanon were created in. There were a lot of assumptions.

One is that pretty much everyone was Christian to one degree or another. I know from my youth growing up in the 50's and 60's that pretty much everyone went to church, So there was a shared culture of sin(faults), God, and redemption. Turning yourself over to God was a common theme. Spirituality was used to prevent bickering over who had the right version of Christianity. Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists and so on could attend meetings knowing that the program only focused on common values.

The 12 steps were based on these common values.

Problem is that those assumptions are not necessarily as much a part of the common culture anymore. Many people no longer attend church or identify themselves with a particular religion. People have been exposed to various other religions such as Buddhism or Hinduism or even new age religions. So, to a lot of people the God/Higher power concept just doesn't fit near as well as it used to. Confessing your sins, steps 4 and 5, just aren't as relevant.

As for having a sponsor, well that came out of a time when communications were much more limited. Telephones were about the only way to reach out for help other than face to face. With the internet and forums like this I have the ability to reach out for help or advice anytime I want. I can get support from people in all stages of recovery with all different points of view.

This doesn't mean the program isn't useful. As I have said before I believe Alanon and this forum saved my life. All it takes is a little effort on my part to focus on the parts that help me and to be willing to graciously accept that others have found help in different parts of the program.

I am a strong advocate for Alanon, it works, even if personally I would like to see changes that acknowledge that there are those of us who are agnostic/atheist and develop some new literature and step programs that take that into consideration. It doesn't mean you have to get rid of the existing tools and techniques but simply expand them to be more inclusive of those with a different perspective.

Your friend,

Neagrm

ATL, in our closing at Al-Anon every week we read, "Talk to each other, reason things out together,...." We always stay after the main meeting and talk/greet ea other, encourage new comers to go to coffee with us afterward, have a phone list for anyone to pick up so they can call anyone any time.

And having a sponsor to talk over details, address difficult questions, and learn how to practice the steps until they make sense and become useful tools, is a key part of the program. The one hour or so weekly meeting of everyone in the big group is just the tip of the iceberg; it would be impossible to address everyone's issues in that one hour.

Pohsfriend, you DO have a way with words. Thanks for the laughs and the wisdom!

PohsFriend

I would argue that confession has value regardless of whether someone is listening in the other end, just like taking a fearless moral inventory is of value in AA, Alanon or other step programs.

At least for me personally, taking a hard look, recognizing the good and the bad, forgiving yourself and humbly seeking to make amends is healthy.

Whether Or not God forgives me I will never know. I know that I need to forgive myself and others and move forward doing the best I can not to repeat mistakes and continue to better align who I am with who I wish to be.

As if AA did not have enough cliches, I made one up to remind myself: Alcoholics don't drink to drown out all of the peac and joy in their hearts.

The rest of us don't engage in our self destructive behaviors out of joy either. Fear. Guilt. Shame. The need for acceptance.... These things are what drives our worst selves. The steps are all about working through that crap then cutting it loose and moving on.

The messes we make trying to convince ourselves we really are good and worthy of love and acceptance... Wow ;-)

AtaTotalLoss - I hear you! I am not wired to take things on faith. If God is there it must **** him off to hear people in the pulpit say "but here is what god MEANT to say". I'm no theologian but I do have an iq over room temperature and I am fairly literate... Lol.

I don't mock religion, as I said I am jealous of those it works so well for. I recall looking at St. Peter's tomb in Rome and was kinda awestruck - I got the whole idea of building a church on him, above his tomb is an alter and the dome - he is part of the actual foundation and sitting there I was awestruck by how far Christianity reaches out from that crypt. Cooool stuff... But I figure am all perfect god can't be thin skinned and insecure so I don't buy that don't ask questions nonsense - that's the lame response of someone with no answers :-)

fluffyflea

[

When I first joined A.A I was Agnostic. For the first couple of years I used the groups as my higher power until I became comfortable with the concept of that.

Everyone has their own way which they find.




QUOTE=m1k3;3799353]I know there is a Secular 12 step recovery forum and I post there but I wanted to start a thread here because there is a steady stream of posts from people who are reluctant to attend Alanon because of this “issue” and the other forum has large number of people in or trying recovery from alcohol and other addictions there. It isn’t always a comfortable place for F&F members because it exposes you to things you may not be ready to deal with, especially if you haven’t started a recovery program of your own.
I think this could be a good place for those with concerns about God, higher powers and spiritual conversions to discuss their feelings about this in regards to Alanon.

I am an agnostic, I don’t believe in God or gods. I won’t say there is no god because there is no way to prove that statement, just as there is no way scientifically to prove that there is a God. I have rather strong Buddhist and Taoist leanings but only from the point of view that there are some great self improvement tools to be found there.

I have had issues with the whole higher power thing and turning my life over to an outside force. No matter how much Alanon says they are not religious there is a underlying Christian ethic in the program. The 12 steps have a strong confession, forgiveness, and redemption feel to me.

At times the attitudes are somewhat condescending from some of the members and the literature. Just hang in there, you’ll get it and fake it till you make it don’t really resonate with me.

That being said, Alanon probably saved my life. Having a place where I can go, a sanctuary, where people really understand is a huge part of my recovery. To break the isolation, the lies and the self doubt is a major part of healing. I feel like I am home when I am in a meeting. Mostly I feel safe. I know I can share about my feelings, my thoughts, my recovery and I won’t have what I said thrown back in my face or used against me at some future point.

I have come to terms with the concept of a higher power as well. I know my ego is not the answer, my best thinking is what got me into and kept me in this mess for so long. I can’t think my way out of this.

My higher power is “Don’t Know”. I don’t need to define it anymore than that. It is as simple as something other than my ego. It could be the universe, the Tao, the Force for you Star Wars fans, Buddha nature or my favorite - intuitive awareness. Whatever it is it is not my monkey mind (ego). By the way I use all of these as my higher power as it seems to shift depending on my mood or feelings at the time.

I don’t discuss my higher power, as vague as it might be, at meetings because I know it might be taken the wrong way by some of the members and I really don’t need to as part of my recovery. I try to be respectful of others beliefs. There is too much good in the program to let myself get hung up on what others believe of or don’t believe.

Thanks for letting me share,

Your friend,[/QUOTE]

LexieCat

Asking questions or dissecting the program during a meeting can be a distraction to those who are there to learn how to apply the Steps. That doesn't mean you can't ask questions or dissect it (although personally, I don't need to understand the physics to turn on a light switch to see in the dark)--just that the meeting itself isn't the place for it.

Sometimes when people say, "Just try it, don't question it so much," what they mean is that some things are really sort of a mystery. There are all kinds of explanations and theories for why/how the Steps lead to recovery in alcoholics, but the only thing most sober alcoholics care about is that they DO work. So the person you are asking may not know the "why"--she is sharing what worked for her.

If I am learning a sport--let's say, golf--I might have a pro teach me to hold the club, and my body, a certain way. I might say, "But that doesn't seem right--it doesn't feel natural and anyway, I'd rather do it my own way." And I can debate it with the pro, and even maybe find some famous golfer who had great success doing what I'm doing. But the bottom line is that even if that's right, the pro can only teach me what works for the vast majority of the golfers he has taught. If I follow the pro's advice, whether it makes sense or comes naturally to me or not, I will become a competent golfer. If I do it my own way, maybe I can still get there, but the pro won't be able to help me refine my technique. I would pretty much be on my own to figure it out.

I don't know if any of that makes sense. It isn't that you are being asked to swallow dogma, it is that the Steps have proven to be a technique that works well for most people. And it's the only "program" Al-Anon has, though there are other tools that can also be helpful. I don't reject anything just because it isn't in the Big Book or the conference-approved Al-Anon literature, but I do trust those sources not to steer me wrong.

AtATotalLoss

All very good points and thoughts. I am a tad stubborn and I know that is something I need to work on too I am approaching things as open mindedly as I can and conversations like this thread help a lot. They force my brain to consider other stuff...
Thanks again everyone! In lieu of meetings for the moment, SR is doing a lot of good things for me...

grumpybear

Is that I am not God, meaning even though I do not believe in a deity, I do think that there is something bigger than me and my problems. I think Taoists say there may indeed be an all-wise, all powerful God, and we cannot by definition hope to understand he/she/it. What we can do is see the logic of the world around us and understand how things are, not what we think they ought to be, or fear they might be.

DreamsofSerenity

I always thought that a big barrier to my xabf's recovery was his uncertainty about the existence of a HP, and his complete disdain for the religious in general, especially Christians. *I'm like most of you: I believe in something greater than myself, but accept and appreciate all religions. I am equally in touch with "God" in a Catholic church as I am chanting "Om" in a yoga class. My xabf was so offput by anything remotely Christian, that as soon as he'd hear the word "Christ" or "Lord" come out of someone's mouth, he'd write the person off immediately and completely shut down. He got involved in Yoga and Mindfulness meditation which were the only spiritual activities palatable to him. The fact that the Mindfulness teacher was a recovered alcoholic convinced my xabf he could recover through meditation alone, without a program. He failed, and then reluctantly headed back to AA. I tried to argue with him that both the Dalai Lama and Ghandi have/had great respect for Christ, and that he couldn't blame Christ for the strange actions of a few of his followers. *He agreed but never really softened to it. And I really think it turned him off to AA, as well as prevented him from feeling part of the fellowship. He dreaded being one of the Jesus gang as much as he dreaded being an alcoholic. Sometimes I feel like if he had found a meeting where he had connected more with the people, he would have accepted his alcoholism more easily. But perhaps his resistance to connecting in meetings was just a symptom of his bigger resistance to letting go of the addiction. His superiority complex seemed to stem from the disease more than anything else.*

laurie6781

WOW What a GREAT thread Mike!!! WOW

Sorry to be 'chiming in' a bit late.

When I arrived at AA in June of '81 I really had a bad taste in my mouth every
time I heard the word "God". I had left the Catholic Church and beliefs behind
me in '59 and had no desire to return to any organized religion.

I soon came to grips with the fact that it was definitely a 'spiritual' program
and for me at that time, 'spiritual' meant "doing the next right thing" on a daily
basis in my life.

My first year into recovery I used A Harley Davidson Motorcycle as my HP.
Now don't laugh, although I do now, lol but it WORKED. I also used my
Sponsor's HP after she asked me:

"Laurie, do you believe that I believe in a Higher Power?"

"Yes."

"Then use my Higher Power."

And I literally would pray:

"Dear Beverly's Higher Power........................"

By the time I reached Alanon at 3 years sober (because my Sponsor strongly
suggested that I attend and get an Alanon sponsor in addition to her) I had
pretty much realized and used the 'logical' steps (buried in the AA steps, lol)
to find my recovery. ie "Pro and Con" lists, doing 'Cost Analysis' on any
action I was about to take, etc Only finding out about 10 years or so ago,
that this too had a name, lol CBT Cognitive Behavior Training, lmao

I had also learned that the word "G.O.D." could stand for 'Good Orderly
Direction.' So by using the above, in those early years in both AA and
Alanon, those beautiful 12 Steps 'worked' for me, because I worked them,
then I started to learn how to LIVE them in my life 24/7. Still not 'perfect'
on that one, rofl but recovery is not a 'destination' but an ongoing road
for the rest of my life, and 'progress, not perfection' is a great phrase to
cover my recovery.

So to all who hesitate, I say:

"Give Alanon a try, at least 6 different meetings, before making a decision,
it cannot hurt you, and should you decide it is NOT for you, no one will
chastise you here or elsewhere. You may also want to try some one on
one counseling, that too will NOT hurt you, but only bring you closer to
YOU."

All of above is "Just my humble opinion" based on my own experiences
these many years.

Love and hugs,

DesertEyes

If I may toss in my .02 worth .... okay, with inflation it's only .01

My bias: I was born into a very Catholic family. Lots of church, lots of dogma, lots of drinking, fighting, abuse and pedophilia. Nasty bunch really. I spent some time in an orphanage run by Carmelites, then went to Jesuit college. That family of origin scrambled my understanding of Catholicism and religion in general so I ran off to study Budhism at a real Zen monastery. That didn't work either so I swung back to the opposite extreme and tried to become a Trappist.

That whole search was just one big mess.

In the end what I figured out is that I was trying to fix my "life problems" by myself. I go to a dentist to fix my teeth, the mechanic to fix my car, but when it comes time to fix my "head" I try to do it on my own.

Like others have said, the origin of the "self-help" movement came out of a Western, Christian based country, so naturally they worded the whole thing in the concepts of their time and place. If you take some time to study comparative religions, as well as the gamut of therapeutic techniques you'll see that the fundamentals of _all_ of the above are almost identical.

You will also see that every person who wrote about this stuff did so using the terminology of their time and place. You end up studying social anthropology and multiple languages if you want to make sense of it all.

Fixing my own "head" is something that I am not able to do by myself. Fixing a broken "machine" by using the same machine that is broken results in a pile of junk lying around the floor. Asking somebody else to help me fix "me" is the only approach that has worked. That "somebody else" is what the concept of a "Higher Power" is all about. If you are a hard-core Catholic that "HP" is going to be worded as "God". If you are a hard-core spiritual-individualist the word for "HP" is "Carl Jung". If you are a complete nut-case then "God" is called "Thorazine"

Ok, so I stretched the examples. For me what matters most is that my disease of "codie-ism" is that I try to fix myself by myself. That means I am trying to be my own "Higher Power". When I recognize that I am not any kind of "HP" and go and ask for help is when I actually get well. All I need to "believe" is that _I_ am not the "HP". That's good enough for me.

What others believe.... well.... I learned that in recovery as well. What others believe is none of my business. Since I can't be my own "HP" I certainly have no business trying to be somebody else's.

Mike

mattmathews

Great thread, I wouldn't have found it if my beliefs hadn't been challenged. I'm in Al-Anon and since starting Al-Anon I've become a practicing Buddhist. Buddhism is often called a religion, but Buddha wasn't a God. I consider both Al-Anon and Buddhism to be different parts of my spiritual journey and mostly they seem to dovetail nicely.
What knocked me slightly off center was attending a recent Al-Anon conference where one of the scheduled speakers said something like "we don't do twisty meditation in Al-Anon," which got a laugh...but in my little heart I thought "But I do!" And then the next day another scheduled speaker said there was too little talk about God (and Jesus) in meetings.
I think I took both of these statements overly seriously because I thought that the speakers were "authorities" on Al-Anon, (based on their many years in the program). Since then, I've decided that their opinions are just part of the pantheon of "things I cannot change."
************************************************** **
I'm actually pretty comfortable being an agnostic/Buddhist in Al-Anon. The phrase that is often used is that Al-Anon is a spiritual program, not a religious one. And open to people of "all faiths or none." At the same time, I recognize that I live in a country that is one of the most religious in the world, and when people think of things of the spirit, it's natural for them to attack that problem using their Christian world-view. I'm not going to change that, (nor do I want to).
When it comes to being a minority in the program, I'm a double winner because I'm also a man. I haven't had a formal sponsor yet, my last candidate for that challenge was battling cancer for most of my time in the program and I've been working out of town for the past year (attending meetings on the weekend).
But right now, I kind of despair at finding a sponsor who is a man and at the same time one who is comfortable with my conception of a higher power. I wonder if the "language barrier" is going to be a problem.
I think this is a good conversation...keep it going!

lillamy

I'm so glad Laurie chimed in because I didn't remember who it was that said "my HD was my HP!"

I think I have a pretty pragmatic attitude to these things. I just shared in another post how an Al-Anon friend of mine basically says "I don't care what people around me believe, I just care if the program works." Sort of like the flip side of a Christian teacher who was scratching his head about "the Christian yellow pages" and said "when my basement is flooded, I don't call a Christian, I call a plumber!"

I think that the resistance to seeking help from Al-Anon is huge for most of us in the beginning. I had a hard time relating and thought it really wasn't for me because the first group I attended consisted of older women who had all chosen to stay with their AHs. I think for me, personally, I was *looking* for reasons to reject the program because I was really really angry at the suggestion that *I* needed help. Seriously, if he would only quit getting drunk, we'd be fine... I thought.

I'm not saying that's true for anyone else. But if I hadn't been so desperately unhappy and in need if support, I would have quit going, and found a reason later...

Wrw72

Hello, I’m new to this site and am looking for Agnostic AlAnon meetings. If anyone can direct me I’d appreciate it!