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AH is singing a different tune

Old 01-30-2013, 06:24 AM
  # 21 (permalink)  
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Liz and Florence, that kind of abuse is just heart-breaking. I am so sorry that you suffered like that.

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Old 01-30-2013, 06:50 AM
  # 22 (permalink)  
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ShootingStar, lots and lots and lots and lots of individual therapy took the sting out and gave me some boundaries with my family (my mom in particular) that have greatly improved my life. The key, though, is that that wasn't/isn't about us, or how lovable or good or compliant we were/are. It's about them, a reflection on their resentments and unresolved BS and vindictiveness, and learning that we don't have to be targets for whatever nastiness they need to work out.

My regret is that it took me this long to realize it, and all the time and energy I spent trying to be enough for my NPD ex, my parents, my mom in particular, my AH, his parents, you name it.

Sorry to jack this thread. Liz, I hope this reflection helps. If not, I'm shutting up now.
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Old 01-30-2013, 07:12 AM
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(((Liz)))

It's a cycle.

When my exah sensed that I was pulling away, thinking about a life separate from his addiction, he turned on the charm. Addicts are master manipulators. And I wanted so badly for my marraige to work, that I fell for it. Only there was always this small little voice inside my head that said 'it's not real'.

He lied to you about his car device. What else has he lied to you about? Do you trust him? Are you willing to continue on in a relationship without trust? Your gut is telling you something...what is it? If you ignore it, you do so at your peril.

My exah and I tried joint counseling once. I remember the counselor called me out on my behavior. He said I was living a lie. And he was right. My exah lied to me. And I lied to myself. And I hurt myself alot int he process. And I hurt our son.

Your the only one who knows your situation well enough to know where the TRUTH lies. Just remember, there is a big difference between the TRUTH and the LIES we tell ourself so we can continue chasing a dream.

Keep the focus on YOU.
What do you want?
Where do you want to be in another 5 years?
You're the only one who can set your course.
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Old 01-30-2013, 07:36 AM
  # 24 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Florence View Post
ShootingStar, lots and lots and lots and lots of individual therapy took the sting out and gave me some boundaries with my family (my mom in particular) that have greatly improved my life. The key, though, is that that wasn't/isn't about us, or how lovable or good or compliant we were/are. It's about them, a reflection on their resentments and unresolved BS and vindictiveness, and learning that we don't have to be targets for whatever nastiness they need to work out.

My regret is that it took me this long to realize it, and all the time and energy I spent trying to be enough for my NPD ex, my parents, my mom in particular, my AH, his parents, you name it.

Sorry to jack this thread. Liz, I hope this reflection helps. If not, I'm shutting up now.
You know what's funny Florence? My mother in law(the queen of manipulation and emotional abuse in their family) asked me a question once. I had told her about what happened when my sister was sick. I was sent away to live with aunts, grandparents, friends, sometimes to other states whenever I was exposed to a virus that would possibly hurt my sister. In those days a chicken pox vaccine wasn't available to all of us, it was only used on cancer patients or those with compromised immune systems. Anyway, I told her all about how I always had a bag packed between the ages of 13 and 16. To me, it was normal. It was necessary and what the doctor's requested. I didn't resent it. I didn't resent her, and I never considered my own feelings in the issue nor did my parents. My mother in law asked, "Liz, didn't that make you feel rejected? Didn't you feel unwanted by your family when they kept shipping you away?" In all honesty, I really didn't have much resentment about it, because it truly was necessary for her survival, but I hadn't even thought about how I FEEL or FELT about all of it. I never thought about my feelings, EVER. No one ever asked. To me, as an adult, that is where the problem lies. I am finally considering my own feelings and exploring them and man, they hurt like hell. I never knew I had deep feelings until recently. My AH used to say that I was like a guy and he liked that about me, so I became proud of the fact that I didn't express much emotion. He said I never broke down in tears like other women and I never screamed or yelled like his mother. And, there I sat, totally naive thinking that that was an attribute, something to pat myself on the back for, never thinking that maybe something was wrong with me.

My mother has since apologized for all the crap she put us through. She was a very indifferent person back then, just trying to struggle through a marriage to what she refers to as 'dead weight' or the 'bump on the log', my dad. My father wasn't really a full blown alcoholic when I was a kid but he was a belittler, he was verbally abusive, and I was always the brunt of his jokes. My mother never stepped in, she claims she never recognized it for what it was: abuse. That's probably true, both my sister and I live in la-la land half the time and we don't really see people's actions for what they are. It's something I obviously have to keep working on.

Thanks for your input here, it's nice to know I'm not alone.
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Old 01-30-2013, 07:41 AM
  # 25 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by outonalimb View Post
(((Liz)))

It's a cycle.

When my exah sensed that I was pulling away, thinking about a life separate from his addiction, he turned on the charm. Addicts are master manipulators. And I wanted so badly for my marraige to work, that I fell for it. Only there was always this small little voice inside my head that said 'it's not real'.

He lied to you about his car device. What else has he lied to you about? Do you trust him? Are you willing to continue on in a relationship without trust? Your gut is telling you something...what is it? If you ignore it, you do so at your peril.

My exah and I tried joint counseling once. I remember the counselor called me out on my behavior. He said I was living a lie. And he was right. My exah lied to me. And I lied to myself. And I hurt myself alot int he process. And I hurt our son.

Your the only one who knows your situation well enough to know where the TRUTH lies. Just remember, there is a big difference between the TRUTH and the LIES we tell ourself so we can continue chasing a dream.

Keep the focus on YOU.
What do you want?
Where do you want to be in another 5 years?
You're the only one who can set your course.
I have to laugh here. He didn't lie about the device, he just never tells me anything so this way I can't accuse him of lying. It's his convenient way of controlling the situation. He told my son about the extra 6 months and my son told me after dad told him: Don't tell your mother. Our son also witnessed AH blasting a landscaper at our club and the guy claimed AH was being hostile. After that incident my AH says, "Don't tell your mother." My son tells me everything still, AH just doesn't get it.

I intend to keep working on myself. As I said earlier, I came on here to harden my resolve and to stay strong. Thanks so much for the encouragement.
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Old 01-30-2013, 07:43 AM
  # 26 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by redatlanta View Post
I wouldn't get too comfortable with the "new him".

You were let go from marriage counseling in a nice way - the guy must be good. The sessions pointless - no one changing. Waste of time, save your money.

Nothing changes if nothing changes.
Well, I was changing and I was searching for change. I did what was asked of me, I made the efforts. AH did not. Yep, waste of my time and money.
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Old 01-30-2013, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by lizatola View Post
Well, I was changing and I was searching for change. I did what was asked of me, I made the efforts. AH did not. Yep, waste of my time and money.
I think that at this point it is insane to think that your husband is going to change. You must be getting something out of this situation or otherwise you would not be doing it.
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Old 01-30-2013, 08:01 AM
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I remember the counselor called me out on my behavior. He said I was living a lie. And he was right. My exah lied to me. And I lied to myself. - Posted by Outonalimb -

Well said. I was living the lie and it hurts to really LOOK at it for what it is/was.
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Old 01-30-2013, 08:39 AM
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I have to laugh here. He didn't lie about the device, he just never tells me anything so this way I can't accuse him of lying. It's his convenient way of controlling the situation. He told my son about the extra 6 months and my son told me after dad told him: Don't tell your mother. Our son also witnessed AH blasting a landscaper at our club and the guy claimed AH was being hostile. After that incident my AH says, "Don't tell your mother." My son tells me everything still, AH just doesn't get it.
They're called lies of omission and they are just as deceptive, manipulative and damaging as spoken lies.
My exah was the king of omissions. He justified hiding things from me (things that had a direct impact on my well-being) by saying that he didn't want to upset me.

It's still manipulation at its finest.
It's still deception.

And he has now enlisted your son in the deception.
What is your son learning from all of this?

Just something to think about....
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Old 01-30-2013, 10:10 AM
  # 30 (permalink)  
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So your son is witness to your AH's behavior, and then understands from his Dad that he is expected to keep the truth from you. Think about what he is learning as he grows up. Even if he does tell you, he is being played in the middle. He is learning manipulation first hand. Your AH doesn't lie, he just omits the truth? That IS lying. And this is all recent!

Follow your gut. It's telling you not to trust yet. So often we have a tendency to not listen to our guts, but it's a mistake.
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Old 01-30-2013, 10:31 AM
  # 31 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by lizatola View Post
He didn't lie about the device, he just never tells me anything so this way I can't accuse him of lying.
Right. *rolls eyes*

Reminds me of when my dad had my mom arrested and taken to jail overnight, and then later on was like, "I didn't have her put in jail! The police did!"
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Old 01-30-2013, 12:15 PM
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There are two ways to lie, omission and comission, either way it is a lie. I believe that your comment about you and your sister living in La,La Land may have some validity. Have you considered one to one therapy to address this issue and others?

I too would give some serious consideration to how your husbands manipulation is having an adverse effect on your son, he learning that manipulation and lieing is acceptable, your son is being used a pawn between you and your husband. And, you find humor in it, must be me, I don't see any humor in this game.

All that aside, I do wish you the best, hopefully you will get the help that you need.
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Old 01-30-2013, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by dollydo View Post
There are two ways to lie, omission and comission, either way it is a lie. I believe that your comment about you and your sister living in La,La Land may have some validity. Have you considered one to one therapy to address this issue and others?

I too would give some serious consideration to how your husbands manipulation is having an adverse effect on your son, he learning that manipulation and lieing is acceptable, your son is being used a pawn between you and your husband. And, you find humor in it, must be me, I don't see any humor in this game.

All that aside, I do wish you the best, hopefully you will get the help that you need.
I don't find humor in it. My comment about laughing was at myself not realizing that 'not telling me something of importance' is considered a lie. Seriously, I would not see that as a lie. That's how I perceive things, I am extremely trusting and have had issues with being naive and believing everything I've been told throughout my life. I honestly had to look up 'lies of omission'. My own skills at handling life have been so hampered by living with insanity all my life so I find some of this new to me as my eyes keep opening up to what I must face. It's not easy, and I don't find it funny. It's more like a funny sad kind of thing where, if I don't laugh at myself, I'd have to be put in a looney bin.
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Old 01-30-2013, 02:07 PM
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Dear Liz, it seems (to me), as I follow your progress, that your entire sense of identity and security is wrapped-up in your marriage. You seem too afraid to step away because it would feel like giving up your self and all of your security.

Am I right? Or off-base?

I hope you are continuing to stick with alanon and individual therapy. I believe that we are all capable of change.

It only takes one person to screw in a lightbulb (JOKE).

sincerely, dandylion
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Old 01-30-2013, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by dandylion View Post
Dear Liz, it seems (to me), as I follow your progress, that your entire sense of identity and security is wrapped-up in your marriage. You seem too afraid to step away because it would feel like giving up your self and all of your security.

Am I right? Or off-base?

I hope you are continuing to stick with alanon and individual therapy. I believe that we are all capable of change.

It only takes one person to screw in a lightbulb (JOKE).

sincerely, dandylion
You're probably right on target. Honestly, when my AH proposed to me I was 25 and I felt that I was already an old hag and that I better accept the proposal because I doubted I'd be worthy in the future of any proposal. My self esteem has always been an issue for me, mostly because of the beat downs from my father. Nothing like hearing you should have been aborted over and over again by your own dad. I didn't know to blame alcoholism for his words, I didn't know they weren't true.

I really need to get over the 'labeling myself a failure' if my marriage fails thing. It seriously haunts me and I don't know why. My mom is divorced and happily remarried. My aunt divorced her abusive cheating husband, too, and no one in our family looked down on either one of them. It's something in ME that has created this way of thinking and I obviously have a lot of work to do to fix it.

I've screwed in plenty of lightbulbs on my own, too, LOL!
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Old 01-30-2013, 05:27 PM
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Wow I am really sorry for the verbal abuse you received from your father - its too bad parents don't have to get licensed before having children.

Liz I don't know anyone that has gone through a divorce that didn't feel (at some points) like a failure, even when they want out that failure feeling is still there.

Your posts really touch me - I keep waiting for the day that you have had enough. Its not a judgment that your situation is any worse or better than others I have kept up with - there is something about your husband's manipulation that I find particularly irritating and disrespectful. I don't get him, why in the world would he confide in your child that his breathalyzer had been extended and "don't tell mom"? He seems to walk through this life shrugging his shoulders toward the feelings of others in particular you and your child. I know we tend to attribute poor behavior and character flaws to the addiction - I personally feel aside from the alcoholism people can just be real jerks.

Anyway - I am pulling for you girl......you deserve to be happy and without the baggage and roller coaster ride that you are on with him.
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Old 01-30-2013, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by redatlanta View Post
Wow I am really sorry for the verbal abuse you received from your father - its too bad parents don't have to get licensed before having children.

Liz I don't know anyone that has gone through a divorce that didn't feel (at some points) like a failure, even when they want out that failure feeling is still there.

Your posts really touch me - I keep waiting for the day that you have had enough. Its not a judgment that your situation is any worse or better than others I have kept up with - there is something about your husband's manipulation that I find particularly irritating and disrespectful. I don't get him, why in the world would he confide in your child that his breathalyzer had been extended and "don't tell mom"? He seems to walk through this life shrugging his shoulders toward the feelings of others in particular you and your child. I know we tend to attribute poor behavior and character flaws to the addiction - I personally feel aside from the alcoholism people can just be real jerks.

Anyway - I am pulling for you girl......you deserve to be happy and without the baggage and roller coaster ride that you are on with him.
You're very sweet and I so much appreciate your kind words. I have been wondering the same thing about the breathalyzer. What's the motivation there?

As for my dad, yeah he really made my life suck at times. He took a real nosedive with the drinking after my grandparents were hit by a car walking home from church. My grandmother died instantly and my grandfather survived(he died 10 months later) but his recovery was awful and quite a struggle and it dragged my dad down to the lowest he'd ever been. He chose me as his target. Told me that his life would have been so different if they hadn't gotten pregnant with me and that I ruined his life. What pisses me off the most is that I was mourning the loss of my grandparents just as much as he was and suffering my own guilt. I didn't need his alcoholic crap thrown at me, too.

I made peace with my dad in my own ways over the years. I forgave him, but I never trusted him and I see that that's how I feel about my AH these days. I can forgive, but trust is not there and that doesn't make for much of a relationship.
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Old 01-30-2013, 07:24 PM
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Liz, having followed your story since I joined SR in June, or whenever you first posted, I think you're making incredible progress. You've gone from outright defense of your AH and irritation with those who suggested he might be at fault, to less defense of him and more just denial, to perceiving the chinks in that armor.

Now you are really looking at yourself as an individual, not just "in the context" of what your AH thinks. And as you open up about the terrible childhood abuse you suffered, you are making the linkages to how that abuse shaped your sense of self, and how that made your AH's bad treatment of you seem so familiar that it seemed appropriate and usual.

I think your progress is nothing less than marvelous, and you should be very very proud of yourself.

You had a career, as I remember, as a stockbroker, so you have lots of marketable knowledge and skills, and when you are ready emotionally, I think you'll be able to put the whole package together in a new exciting and very fulfilling way. Keep on digging, I think you're hitting paydirt!

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Old 01-31-2013, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by ShootingStar1 View Post
Liz, having followed your story since I joined SR in June, or whenever you first posted, I think you're making incredible progress. You've gone from outright defense of your AH and irritation with those who suggested he might be at fault, to less defense of him and more just denial, to perceiving the chinks in that armor.

Now you are really looking at yourself as an individual, not just "in the context" of what your AH thinks. And as you open up about the terrible childhood abuse you suffered, you are making the linkages to how that abuse shaped your sense of self, and how that made your AH's bad treatment of you seem so familiar that it seemed appropriate and usual.

I think your progress is nothing less than marvelous, and you should be very very proud of yourself.

You had a career, as I remember, as a stockbroker, so you have lots of marketable knowledge and skills, and when you are ready emotionally, I think you'll be able to put the whole package together in a new exciting and very fulfilling way. Keep on digging, I think you're hitting paydirt!

ShootingStar1
Can I give you a virtual hug? Thanks so much, ((ShootingStar))!
Yes, I was a broker and worked in financial services and I then worked part time teaching aerobics and eventually yoga while homeschooling during the day.

I am almost at the point where I wish AH would just do something SO bad that I have no choice to walk away. It's the constant up and down and positive then negative that gets me. He always seemed so willing to change using his words and attitude, I soooo much wanted to believe him. I guess I'm finally tired of believing him. I'm really praying that I'm ready to hold some boundaries and to ask him to earn his way back into my trust circle(for lack of a better term).
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Old 01-31-2013, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by lizatola View Post
I'm really praying that I'm ready to hold some boundaries and to ask him to earn his way back into my trust circle(for lack of a better term).
See, in my experience, it's this kind of thinking that perpetuates the cycle. So you say to him, you have to earn back my trust. And he says, what do you want me to do? And you give him a "list" of all the stuff he has to do to earn his way back. Then, he does all the things on your "list." But, you still don't trust him because he is just going through the motions, checking things off the list, trying to get you off his back. Then he says, you're impossible to please, I did all the things you asked me to and you still don't trust me. Then he blames you for moving the goal post and takes no responsibility for his actions or lack of. And around and around it goes.

Instead of asking him to do anything. Telling him what he's "doing wrong." Why not just observe how he behaves when there are no mandates to follow? Is he trustworthy? Does he make a good partner? Is he willing to do the right thing even without you telling him what that is?

L
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