amooseoncebitmysister

I could have written your post! I got really adept at making lists in my head a la: Him: "You're so...character flaw character flaw ad nauseum" Me (in my head): Origen, nylabones, toothpaste, chocolate ice cream (etc)" but nonetheless it still got to me. How terribly unhealthy!

Since I moved out (and I do have contact with my AH), this hasn't happened. In darker moments I wonder how the he** I put up with that unproductive toxic QUACK.

Seems to be a commonality with alcoholics!

ZiggyB

It is so amazing that I had to come here to find out exactly how common it is! Finally I don't feel confused. lol!

And of course it gets to you, it's character assassination, leaves you wondering WTF is wrong with you while they do the most incredibly crazy things.

kale

Thanks to everyone for their astute replies!

I think "insufferable" is the word. These discussions are so painful and ridiculous, like fault-finding missions. Boy, he wants to hold my feet to the fire, doesn't he?

During one part of our most recent arguments, I compared his behavior to my father's (who is also not a a nice man). And rightly so! He wanted to make the next endless section of the argument about an exhaustive dissection of how *exactly* he does and does not resemble my father. This minute exploration was supposed to reveal that he is in fact nothing like my father. (Refuse.)

As he has progressed down his alcoholic pathway, I have explored what I bring and how I find my place in the world. And guess what? I am a happy, nifty, optimistic person. I think it is likely some other normal person might fall in love with me and communicate with me and love me in a simple, straightforward fashion.

My options:

1.Divorce him. This is what I want to do a lot of the time.

2.Help stage an intervention using an ARISE intervention counselor, where the intervention is by invitation rather than surprise. I would be prepared for him to flip out and demand a divorce from me in this scenario.

He family doesn't know that he's a d*mn alcoholic! I want to give them this information so that 1) they can keep him from drinking himself to death in my possible absence. 2. They are good people who love him and may possibly have a beneficial influence on him.

I am also sick and tired of being the only one in our daily lives who knows he's a drunk. I've been going over to his family's house on a weekly basis for a couple of years now pretending everything's super.

Any opinions on the intervention angle?

Linkmeister

I called them "circular conversations" because they never ended. Nothing changed, nothing was ever resolved.Same old topic-I was at fault, I didn't understand, wash, rinse repeat.

Easy way to stop this behaviour: Don't respond, don't engage. It's hard for one person to continue a discussion or argument.

Audrey1

Yep, I hear that. And I don't think it even matters whether or not they are drinking at the time. My partner is becoming better at sticking to the original point now (with a lot of nudging him back to it on my part), but still loves to go cross-country on me every now and then. Once you realise that this is what's going on, and can detatch and avoid getting angry (tricky), it can be quite funny to observe just how shamelessly far off track they actually go.

In my case, RABF rarely starts arguments, but will be set off by something I say, which is usually just a very reasonable request to talk about something calmly.

Example - Last night, he was home late... again. What started out as being "Six or seven... Absolute latest 8pm. I promise" ended up being 10pm. He was definitely not drinking and was driving home from work. Now, this wouldn't be an issue, except that we have quite a lot of important paperwork we need to work on together that has been put off and put off and put off for weeks. It's now crunch time to get it done, and I've already gone through the bulk of it myself, but refuse to do any more until I have some kind of token contribution from him. We both work the same number of hours now, which are long, but we just have to make the time. Lateness is an everyday thing for my partner, and something I have started to become used to, but it is the breaking of his word which upsets me, largely because of the endless run of broken promises WHILE he drank, and what will happen if he breaks his word on not drinking while he's sober.

So, I had become tired of this work being put off and put off and put off, as well as the much needed weekend away we have been supposed to have being put off and put off and put off, among other things. I am also becoming increasingly upset when he promises his ageing grandmother that he will visit her on a particular day, and never shows up. Obviously she gets very upset. So it's not just me on the receiving end.

But in the grand scheme of things, this doesn't warrant a fight. I simply asked him when he got home last night (the dinner gone cold) if he could only promise something to me (and his grandmother) if he was sure it was going to happen. That's it. Very calm. Very fair, I think. No need for more discussion.

But no. An argument ensued about the conditions on the road... followed by excuse after excuse, after excuse. He sat there raging off on wild tangents about how he took the job because I wanted him to work (err... he didn't feel he needed to after about a year of drunken unemployment before?), and that if I didn't I should just tell him. Then it was carry on about how he thinks about me all day and does everything he can to get home to me. I tried to remind him of my original reasonable request to promise only those things he is certain of, but this just sparked more ramblings off into the wilderness, so I just stood in the kitchen quietly, ladelling his reheated soup into a bowl as he continued to pull strange arguments out of thin air.

My not reacting eventually resulted in his own quietness and we "enjoyed" our dinner in silence before going to bed. This morning, his recollection of the conversation is that I was yelling and screaming... before mentioning the fact I am on my period and laughing as if our whole night was spoiled on account of my out of control hormones. Silly Audrey.

If there was a smilie which shook its head woefully, I'd insert it here.

Fathom

After a year of not having conversations like that anymore, I still react badly to even the thought of them. Hmm. I think I might have some more anger issues to work through...

Hugs,
Fathom

LexieCat

I dunno about the intervention. His family isn't even aware of it. Part of the premise of an intervention is for people to make the alcoholic see what he is doing to the people he loves. Would they even believe you? Would they believe him when he tells them you have gone off the rails and are falsely accusing him?

It kind of looks to me as if your wanting to inform his family is get the burden of him off you and onto them.

If you want to divorce him, do that. If his family asks you why, you can tell them.

Just be careful about your motives. It doesn't look like he is anywhere near seeing his drinking as a problem, so I'm doubting the intervention will do him any good.

lizatola

To answer the original question in this thread, I wanted to come on here and give a resounding YES. He was a dry drunk for 15 years so I never accounted any of this to a drinking issue, it was a thinking issue really. I would go to him and tell him that something he said hurt my feelings or that I am sad about something(even something unrelated to our marriage) and somehow in about 3-5 minutes the conversation would turn and he'd be talking about his awful childhood or how terrible work is and how put upon he is, ad nauseum.

My AH is a master at changing the subject or turning the talk around so that it reflects badly on me or at least he tries. When we're in marriage counseling, the counselor and myself will be trying to get AH to talk about the marriage and somehow we'll wind up listening to him talk about taxes, the plight of the white American male and how bad they have it, or about how women are all a bunch of pathetic money grubbing ho's(is that the right spelling, LOL).

As to Kale's question about telling the family, I have to say 'check your motives'. I, too, thought that I should tell his mother or brother about what we've been going through. AH got a DUI and is now on a restricted license, he is back home in MD driving his mother's car while they prepare for her funeral this weekend. I have no intention of telling his brother or sister even though I know that AH is breaking the law(he is only allowed to drive a car if it has an ignition interlock device). I guess I know that deep down I'd be trying to play God and that's not where I want to be in my own recovery. Whenever I feel the quest to intervene, I ask myself if I'm doing it for me or am I doing it for some other ulterior motive. Now, what I am doing is renting my OWN CAR when I fly out tomorrow for the funeral. I will not let AH drive me around illegally, but I can protect myself and do what's right for me and my son.

I, too, am questioning whether I should separate or divorce. There is so much hurt from the things he's said and done and I wonder if I really will ever get over it. I find forgiveness easy, but the sting and mistrust of the things that come out of his mouth hurt and I know I need to protect myself emotionally, too. We truly can't tell you what to do here on SR, but I know I can say that I understand where you're coming from and I encourage you to find your motive, pray about what you want for you, and read a few books on relationships to maybe assist you in figuring out what step you want to take next. I have read, "Should I Stay or Should I Go?" by Lundy Bancroft and I have found the exercises in the book really helpful in guiding me to see just how I really feel about us and about what I feel I deserve, etc.

kale

I have had so many little periods of forgiveness and hope (I'm prone to hope!) that he would meet me in the middle like a partner and act like he loved me, but I haven't really had love for years. Just withdrawal, weird torturous fights, and periods of pretending things are ok but with no real intimacy.

I do sincerely care about him. I love him. Underneath all this frustration is profound sadness. I don't want him to get alcohol poisoning during a period of upset. I wish for him to be the person he might have been without alcohol addiction. I want his parents to know what is going on so that they might intervene to save his life one day. Wouldn't they want to know rather than find him dead with no inkling?

kale

Maybe the intervention should just be me.

Katiekate

Hi, I just want to say that you need to do what you feel you need to do.

I just don't think putting yourself, right in the line of fire alone is wise.

But whatever you decide, we will support you.

take care!

ZiggyB

Kale,
I don't know about the intervention angle, I never had any luck with those tactics myself.

If they are in denial, they will drink and insist it isn't a problem. I can understand your feelings of worry and concern but you are probably wasting your time trying to get him to do anything.

I remember the time he told me "You are so much more important to me than alcohol" - that didn't last for very long.

Have you read "Codependent No More?"

ODAT63

Step 1. we are powerless over people, places and things, specially the alcoholic, it seems that you are having problems accepting Step 1. I am struggling with it myself right now. It really sucks, all I want is the world to be "happy" my way.

AtATotalLoss

Just have to say - I laugh heartily at this!! Not in a mean way but just because I SOOO get it. Read this to my fiance last night and was crying laughing. Because having someone else write it all out and being able to take a step back, it just sounds so ridiculous. Has strengthened my resolve to not engage in arguments with my A anymore... Thanks for posting this - it is awesome!!

kale

Haha! I'm glad you thought it was funny. I kind of meant to emphasize the ridiculous merry-go-round aspect of it.

So, step one. I am powerless. This is what the intervention looks like:
1) I read the book "Love First" to gather some info on addicts and interventions.
2) I summarize in a letter (as people do in this book) from my experiences with his addiction and try to emphasize that I love him and not the addiction.
3) Honestly my gut says to tell him I want to split up, even if he says he'll change (which I know is not that likely an outcome). I will be prepared to leave the house immediately if he gets scary.
4) I don't want him to die, even if I don't want to be with him. I do love the AH. I think I always will. I will get message to his parents that they need to be on watch for a while. He will probably go live with them for a while, as he has before. He told me once that when his last girlfriend broke up with him he stayed extremely drunk every day for 6 months. I have seen him get dangerously drunk over losses in his life since I have been with him.

I don't consider it codependent to keep someone from dying. No takesies backsies with death. It's game over. Tragedy all around.

kale

Or am I over-estimating the danger and over-worrying and being codependent that way? One other factor is that he is extremely secretive and would hide his drinking. But his family disapproves of drinking generally (and smoking) and he has never smoked around them or even spoken of drinking normally around them, let alone been drunk around them, that I've seen. He could stay alone in the guest house though.

Is all of it just not my problem or am I obligated to let them know so they can look out for his safety.

This non-codependent stuff is complicated.

LexieCat

If you feel obligated to let his family know, you can tell them. Just be prepared for the possibility that they will ALL gang up on you.

The one other thing about interventions is that I have always heard that they can actually be counterproductive if they are not facilitated by an expert. I assume you have stated repeatedly how much you are concerned about his drinking. Will one more time really make a difference?

I think leaving someone, filing for divorce, and in response to the question, "Why?" stating that you cannot live with the drinking any more (or choose not to) adequately conveys the message.

Unless you've got a few months for another one of those conversations...

Carol Star

2 Alanon answers- 1. sorry you feel that way and 2. OH ????????

4MyBoys

I was shying away from answering this.

For me, this is still the most painfull part of my relationship dying when I look back at it. The arguments would start just like you pointed out and just keep going for hours whether I said anything or not. I usually just agreed with him to try to make it stop. He used to start with something mundane and then just move on to criticizing every aspect of my being from how the laundry was done to what a bad mom I was, everything. For literally hours.

I dont wish this on anyone. I remember telling him the next day, after one of these instances, that I wish he would just hit me to make it end and have it be the end of it. It would be so much less painful.

I cannot believe I ever put up with it. I am tearing up for any of you out there still dealing with this......

4MyBoys

kale

carol starr- I am unsure about the meaning of your message.