fluffyflea

[

I,m not trying anymore.




QUOTE=choublak;3779321]It's their way of communicating that they don't want to talk to you. They've communicated it; why keep trying?[/QUOTE]

fluffyflea

Right on all counts ZiggyB.

EternalQ

Yes, in my experience, it is abuse.
I have lived it.
The important thing is to not join IN with the abuse, by abusing yourself.
Please, take care of yourself, first.
You are totally worth being treated well! And that is the part YOU control.

PohsFriend

I think it is good to be cautious when you use the word abuse.

I would tend to label what Earthworm describes as neglect, the absence of any response. It's certainly a fact that addicts are unlikely to want to discuss what they've done wrong but that's also true of people and I hate to admit, especially men.

In Gottman's "Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work" book he spends a lot of time on the dynamics of a couple's communication. Actually, he rewrote what we think we know about it. The back story on the book is that after many years as marriage counselors, Gottman and his wife decided they were pretty much frauds - the conventional wisdom was a pile of crap.

They set up a laboratory - an apartment wired for sound and video (except bathroom of course and the electronics were shut off at 10PM). They brought in couples for the weekend and observed how they talked. They were told to make themselves at home, do what they normally did on a weekend at home - bring the dog, drink if you drink, etcetera. They wore heart rate monitors too.

Stonewalling, what Earthworm describes, is covered early on under the broader topic of major warning signs in a relationship. He calls it one of the "Four Horsemen of the Apocolypse": Criticism, Contempt, Defensiveness, Stonewalling.

Gottman's work led, over time, to where they got incredibly effective prediction of whether a couple would stay married or not. For me, it was the best book I ever read regarding relationships.

Here's a scanrio to consider...
Gottman realized quickly that women and men respond different at a physiological level to stress during an argument. Once the fight/flight response kicks in you may as well quit, that conversation isn't turning around. Stonewalling very often is a response to someone feeling overwhelmed, or flooded. 85% of the time it is the man who does this.

What leads to it? Usually, not always, because men are actually more easily overwhelmed by the emotional stress of marital conflict and seek to stop it by withdrawing or stonewalling. I've done this one and the thoughts in my head at the time ranged from "Why talk, I'm tired of getting beat up and bitched at for every f---ing thing I do and there is no reasonig with you" to "You reallllllly want to know what I think? If I open my mouth right now I am going to say things I will regret so I just need to calm down first".

So... what preceded this? Is what you wanted to talk about one of his faults? How did the conversation start? Were you critical? Contemptuous? I'm not blaming you for it but stonewalling is usually a reaction, not an action. I didn't see it until I read Gottman's book.

Nobody likes to hear how much they suck, that's the most common path to stonewalling.

We all draw the line of where abuse and control start based on our own experiences. In mine, stonewalling is rude but not abusive. It can quickly turn to abuse and control if the person starts gaslighting or blameshifting or simply verbally beating you into submission because you dared to express a complaint or a need.

There are things that can get to all of us here. I know what Lexie does for a living and it makes good sense that she would set the bar for abuse where she does and she's an expert on the topic. There's nothing dangerous about that. I got my neck hairs up a little when KatieKate said "alcoholics do..." because not all do but Katie is a friend here and I totally get that her responses and mine are different because we have different experiences that we draw from.

Take a breath guys... whether it is abuse and control or just ****** communication patterns it is frustrating and upsetting and nobody disagrees with that.

To Earthworm - If you have a chance, the first couple chapters of Gottman's book were revolutionary for me. He talks about how a conversation that is kicked off with a harsh startup and criticism/contempt lead right into defensiveness and stonewalling and in MY unique experience he nailed it.

The difference between a complaint, criticism and contempt are crucial too.
Complaint: You were late getting home sp I had to watch the kids and missed my meeting
Criticism: I missed my meeting because you are too inconsiderate to get home on time
Contermpt: I missed my meeting again because as usual, you can't bother to be responsible and do what you are supposed to do, like that's a surprise...

Or more simply:
Complaint: You did a bad thing and I am unhappy
Criticism: You did a bad thing because you are a bad person
Contempt: You did a bad thing and by the way, you effing suck... seriously you suck.

Contempt is the real killer in that list and Gottman suggests that left unchecked usually leads to divorce. Now here's the one that got me between the eyes... Sarcasm is contempt.

Yeah - ouch.

fluffyflea

PohsFriend Sarcasm is tearing of the flesh.

Thanx for your post. It explains so much.

PohsFriend

Happy that some of it made sense to you.....

Recovery is not an ideal term but it's catchier than "Figurin **** out"

Try Gottman's book, many of the things we discuss here have little to do with alcoholism and are more basic problems associated with the maddening conundrum of sharing space with another human being - especially one of the opposite sex ;-)

I was joking about that with Poh one time and she expressed confidence that I'd keep trying to figure it out.... I asked how she knew and she just looked down and said "you don't have your own pair of these".

Try Gottman ;-)

NYCDoglvr

It is a sign of contempt, of saying another person's ideas and feelings don't matter. The more they drink, the more self-centered, self-involved and selfish alcoholics get; they care nothing about other people.

Taking5

You are totally allowed allowed to talk about your feelings, just not with the person you want to. I wouldn't call it abuse. It is a form of control - that person is not engaging you in the conversation. You need to figure out why this lack of comminucation is happening, or resign yourself to it not happening, at least not in the way or the timing you would like.

fluffyflea

Part of the reason I get so upset about it besides the fact it,s controlling,manipulative and disrespectful is because it triggers up so much stuff from childhood when we were not allowed to express our feelings because it might upset an out of control parent.

cr995

Earthworm - it is abusive.

Describes my STBXAH's behaviour exactly! It is the silent treatment and it is the one thing that I would say is the cruelest of the alcoholics arsenal.

I found this online and it made me realise I was not imagining things or over-reacting.

The silent treatment is a method the abuser uses to 'kill' you for something you have done. In a sense, you have been psychologically 'murdered' by them, but your physical life goes on.

I believe the silent treatment (feigned apathy; cold-shoulder; silence; distance, and ignoring you) is the worst form of emotional abuse. It is a punishment used by abusers to make you feel unimportant, not valued, not cared about and completely absent from the abuser's thoughts. It is used as a form of non-physical punishment and control because the abuser mistakenly thinks that if they don't physically harm you then they are not abusers. The truth is, they are far worse at doling out abuse than the physical abuser.

Silent treatment is a form of banishing someone from the abuser's existence without the benefit of closure or a good bye or a chance at reconciliation. In a word..it's meant to torture someone you profess to love. Should I meet someone again who uses this tactic just once he will not get another chance. Because the silent treatment is something that the abuser repeats over and over again. The silent treatment is CONTROL, and a safe means for them to avoid any 'uncomfortable' topics, issues in the relationship, or issues within himself (or herself).

It's all very well saying then don't have a conversation with this person, but if this is a person who is close to you and who you have already invested your time and love in - then it's a big problem. The closer they are to you - the more it will hurt. It is designed to!Yes the best thing for you to do is get away from the person forever - but the hurt is already there and you have already felt the pain.

LifeRecovery

This is what I am learning also.

I spent my therapy appointment on Friday talking about how my relationship was so similar to the one i grew up in (and it was not even about the alcohol).

It was about what I lived with, and did not say anything about for years. It was not abuse, it was just stuffing down of feelings and emotions. I did the same thing in my marriage.

When neither of those situations got better I blamed it on myself.

I am sorry you are feeling so stuck right now. I hope that it is the start of some healing for you as you are worth it.

fluffyflea

[

I'll be talking about all that on Tuesday in Therapy.

QUOTE=LifeRecovery;3781581]This is what I am learning also.

I spent my therapy appointment on Friday talking about how my relationship was so similar to the one i grew up in (and it was not even about the alcohol).

It was about what I lived with, and did not say anything about for years. It was not abuse, it was just stuffing down of feelings and emotions. I did the same thing in my marriage.

When neither of those situations got better I blamed it on myself.

I am sorry you are feeling so stuck right now. I hope that it is the start of some healing for you as you are worth it.[/QUOTE]

Argnotthisagain

Sure sounds like it to me.

And I really feel strongly that it IS ABUSE. And that control of this sort is included in the definition of abuse.

Especially because your post makes it VERY clear that you are NOT going through this, and having these confused painful doubts, for the first time.

In fact, it looks like you've been putting up with it for a while. This looks like it's more like the gazillionth time.

I think it's okay to take some time to digest this. I know it SURE took me some time to be able to think about what I needed to do for myself to protect myself.

I know what *that* feels like. . Yecch. Beeeen Therrrrrrrrrrrre.

fluffyflea

Well no not the first time, grew up with the silent treatment. Wasn't talked to for a week once by my mother because I refused to get her a milkshake because she wanted to lie in bed and eat and get sicker.

Mightyqueen801

Yes, sometimes we learn at home how to stifle/deny our emotions later in relationships. My mother didn't like me to cry when I was little and would mock my crying to other adults, so I learned to prevent myself from crying by the time I was six or so. Didn't work out so well over the long haul.

Then, married to the alcoholic husband and desperately trying to get him to "hear" me, he would mock me and say, "Oh BOO HOO HOOOOOOOOOO, you just have it so baaaaaaaaad, don't you." I remember feeling ashamed for feeling like crying--in my thirties--just as I did when I was five years old.

My alkie husband was abusive. My mother was not--but I can still draw parallels between the two and how I reacted to them the same emotionally.

PohsFriend

I want to tread carefully here as this is obviously a topic that inspires great passion.

In the original post, Earthworm's question is a little vague. Was this an incident? A pattern? Is there a conflict going on right now that became heated and resulted in people talking over one another? In later posts Earthworm describes what must have been brutal as a child - a parent withholding love or even acknowledgment for a week. THAT is brutal and awful and clearly psychological abuse by, I think, most everyone's standards.

But how can we say that what is in that first post is definitely abuse? Even emotional murder? That's extremely powerful verbiage that, I propose, requires more context. To question whether it is abuse or just rude, but typical, behavior when someone is frustrated or flooded and overwhelmed by an emotional conversation... To question that is dangerous? Another highly charged word that could intimidate someone into not daring to express their opinion perhaps?

EW - I had a bipolar NPD mom, I GET the trigger effect - XW would make unreasonable and controlling demands and instead of responding like I would to a stranger (how bout you STFU and get out of my face!?) I responded physically and emotionally like the terrified child of 3$0 years ago.... But my response was disproportionate, she knew how to hit my panic button. I am VERY sympathetic, not minimizing what you are feeling, just offering some food for thought.

I have a great counselor, he told me to google "ten cognitive distortions". One of the ten is minimizing/catastrophising. We as a group do a LOT of this.

Am I saying that what Earthworm experienced was not abuse, control and emotional murder? No. I'm suggesting that based on the information given it is one hell of a big leap to draw a conclusion.

Learning to deal with the situation in front of me today, objectively, cognizant of my own triggers and lens is a very big part of my own growth and healing. Am I reacting to fact or fear? Present or past? What cognitive distortions might be throwing me off? This helps me tell the difference between the merely icky and the holy crap issues.

I think there's a bit of a rush to attribute everything to alcoholism and the alcoholic as well. Healthy couples can have heated disagreements (OMG this one has been a beeeeyatch for me to get!). People get frustrated, people talk over one another and hang up phones sometimes. I think we need to understand a little more before drawing absolute conclusions based on a vague question without much context.

Lest anyone think that shows a lack of concern or respect for EW, my intent is just to offer the thought: let's take a breath, think this through a bit and make sure this is an emergency before hitting 911 because it is very easy for those who've been hurt to mistake a '5' for a '10' on the ohshitohshitohshit scale.

Last thought...
Awareness and intolerance of abuse is a very serious and important thing. For men, the suggestion that they are abusive is a hugely impactfull and powerful accusation. Men are taught that any display of anger is unacceptable. Shouting BACK is portrayed as battery in divorces. I'm thinking of incidents when I was very frustrated by an argument that was going nowhere and I've needed to withdraw and call timeout to avoid an angry response.
If an angry response is abusive and violent and withdrawing and refusing to engage in a conversation that is overwhelming is abusive and emotional murder...

Talk about a double bind!
Let your frustration and anger show - abusive
Walk away and ignore the person until you can control your emotions- abusive
Sit there meekly and listen to things you don't want to hear withoutbdefending yourself? Good doggie!

I mention it because accusing someone of abuse is not trivial, that's a big accusation that should be made when it's true but be sure before you shoot that bullet. Accusing someone of being abusive COULD easily be used to control and manipulate and cow them into compliance, couldn't it?

I don't know if this thread stemmed from a normal argument filtered through the painful memory of childhood abuse or if it's a daily pattern. I don't know what EW wanted to talk about. I don't know what these guys are arguing about.

...so I don't know enough to form an opinion on whether she's being abused and controlled or emotionally murdered. Does anyone but EW?

Considering possibilities other than the worst case is not minimizing or dismissing. I certainly winced when I read about a kid getting the silent treatment... Don't know if that's better or worse than the barrage I took at the same age for expressing an unapproved emotion but both suck, both impact that little kid later in life and both require that adult to work harder than most people on gauging whether they are responding proportionately to what's in front of them or whether the adrenaline kicked in because of what's behind them.

Maybe that makes sense, if not... Leave the rest applies.

EW - written words don't convey tone, mine is nothing but sympathetic and I hope that is abundantly clear.

fluffyflea

PohsFriend,

Hahaha first off I was halfway through your post before I realized what EW meant.

I like what you have said and I KNOW that part of my reaction is being filtered through past experiences.

I agree with the concept of stonewalling, i think that is real and also the reactions from the other party were partly out of frustration.

Tomorrow I have alot to talk about with my therapist and yes like other people I certainly have to work harder to sort out if MY reaction to something is NORMAL or off the beam.

I am going to read those ten cognitive distortions. Thanx!

PohsFriend

Progress, not perfection ;-)

...started calling you EW because I kinda felt like calling you a worm would be.... Abusive.

Oh come on... That was a little funny ;-)

fluffyflea

Those Ten Cognitive Distortions are right on.

The reason for Earthworm,some years back I was unfortunately followed around on the internet so when I came on here I wanted to be UNDERGROUND!

PohsFriend

Oh thank goodness, here I was thinking "ok, i thought I had self esteem issues.... Dammmmmmmmmmmn". Glad to know it wasn't self-description.