I'm tired of obsessing.

Old 01-17-2013, 05:49 PM
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I tend to think most alcoholics display narcissistic traits. That's part of the disease for most of us--we are pretty self-centered and tend not to let other people's pain get in the way of our addictions. That doesn't necessarily mean we are INNATELY that way. We are more narcissistic the way young children are, before they have learned to share, to treat other people the way they want to be treated, to think about how their actions affect others.

Not very attractive in adults, but when it is attributable to alcoholism, the growing-up and awareness of others' feelings, can finally develop if we get sober. It takes work, though--and it's a big part of what the 12 Steps are intended to address.
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Old 01-17-2013, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by LexieCat View Post
I tend to think most alcoholics display narcissistic traits. That's part of the disease for most of us--we are pretty self-centered and tend not to let other people's pain get in the way of our addictions. That doesn't necessarily mean we are INNATELY that way. We are more narcissistic the way young children are, before they have learned to share, to treat other people the way they want to be treated, to think about how their actions affect others.

Not very attractive in adults, but when it is attributable to alcoholism, the growing-up and awareness of others' feelings, can finally develop if we get sober. It takes work, though--and it's a big part of what the 12 Steps are intended to address.
Thanks for articulating that so perfectly. There is a huge difference between narcissistic behavior in the sense many people mean it and Narcissistic the way those who've experienced the special joy of life beneath the heel of a clinically narcissistic person.

Addicts often behave poorly - lies, manipulation, lack if consideration - when the addictive voice is driving the bus. Anything between them and that drink or pill or needle is an obstacle or source of fear. That's very, very, very different.

Someone with NPD, if forced to endure an hour on this site, would scoff at the 12 steps. When challenged they would read through your history not to understand your perspective but to find your obvious fears and insecurities so they could guess, probably very accurately, to find the exact response they needed to make you feel completely worthless, embarrassed, pathetic and ashamed. If you then said "hey - that really hurt, I didn't mean to offend you" they'd see the faint reflection of a contented smile on their face as they saw that they'd hit the mark.... Then they'd go one level deeper, just for satisfaction... Not fun, they are incapable of joy as we understand it.

It's conceivable that I'm not entirely my usual warm fuzzy self when this topic comes up.
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Old 01-17-2013, 07:49 PM
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Understandably. I've seen some of the crueler abusers I've dealt with, when we happen to have a psych evaluation to look at (which we often don't have) diagnosed with NPD.
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Old 01-17-2013, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by PohsFriend View Post

Someone with NPD, if forced to endure an hour on this site, would scoff at the 12 steps. When challenged they would read through your history not to understand your perspective but to find your obvious fears and insecurities so they could guess, probably very accurately, to find the exact response they needed to make you feel completely worthless, embarrassed, pathetic and ashamed. If you then said "hey - that really hurt, I didn't mean to offend you" they'd see the faint reflection of a contented smile on their face as they saw that they'd hit the mark.... Then they'd go one level deeper, just for satisfaction... Not fun, they are incapable of joy as we understand it.

It's conceivable that I'm not entirely my usual warm fuzzy self when this topic comes up.
Hey you must know my ex-boyfriend! :-P
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Old 01-17-2013, 08:47 PM
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I completely agree Lexie. STBXAH is an alcoholic, and by the very nature of addiction, displays narcissistic tendencies. His lack of empathy worsened over time. Last spring was the true "high point" where I could be bawling and pleading for him to not leave me and he could sit there, completely stone faced with no reaction whatsoever, dead zombie eyes boring holes through me. Remembering that look on his face still haunts me.

STBXAH couldn't acknowledge how his actions affected others (namely, ME). It was really one of the core issues and what made me so miserable in my marriage; he would consistently do things that were disrespectful to me, and any argument from me, he treated me with disdain. I learned that talking about my feelings was a big no-no.

Originally Posted by LexieCat View Post
I tend to think most alcoholics display narcissistic traits. That's part of the disease for most of us--we are pretty self-centered and tend not to let other people's pain get in the way of our addictions. That doesn't necessarily mean we are INNATELY that way. We are more narcissistic the way young children are, before they have learned to share, to treat other people the way they want to be treated, to think about how their actions affect others.
"It kinda kicked me a few months back when I read someone say that there therapist had said they did not wind up with an alcoholic by accident and that quite often an alcoholic's partner is 'sicker' than the alcoholic in some ways."

This caused a lump in my throat. Definitely something for me to think about. I mean, I know I am "sick" because I continue to choose addicts as partners. The difference between AH and me, however, is that I am no longer choosing to ignore my "sickness" and working on getting well.
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Old 01-17-2013, 09:03 PM
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h00ped,

This is so insightful, thank you for taking the time to remind me about this important function of our brains. Positive thinking, I am working on it. I'm also working on deflecting thoughts of STBXAH. I like how you put that, it is so accurate. How many times do I really need to re-live the same conversation, or beat myself up over what I did/didn't do or say? Ok, well apparently it is MANY MANY times But to do so is unproductive and keeps me stuck.

I do feel like I'm coming out of a mental fog somewhat. After I moved out of our marital home and into my new place in November, and with the holidays, I just wasn't functioning very well. Just kind of going through the motions. I still have a long way to go for clarity and peace of mind. Lately, I feel proactive in a way and more focused, despite my obsessive thinking about STBXAH. I need to start obsessing about myself.

Originally Posted by h00ped View Post
An interesting field of science is neuroplasticity. Think of our neural pathways as cords of string or bands of muscle. When your thoughts continually go down a certain path, your brain pathways actually get thicker and thicker.

Same with our thinking patterns. In the beginning, you'll have to very actively think in new ways, and keep doing it daily over and over to strengthen the new paths, and let the other ones unravel.

It will take work, conscious work, but if you keep at it and use the mental tools, you can break out of the obsessive rut. Read and go over and over again any time of positive affirmation, truth, joyful thought, hopeful thought, and let your brain remap itself into a new thought life! Practice deflecting thoughts of STBAXH. And, science is also showing that this will bring more health and wellbeing to your body. Every thought carries a specific chemical messenger that our cells receive, and over time can become addicted to. Ever start craving fight or flight chemicals after you leave your A and the drama dies down?? That's your body talking. In a way we have to detox our bodies from craving the junk food of negative thought chemical messengers. Better immune system, better sleep, etc. awaits.
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Old 01-17-2013, 10:48 PM
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"It kinda kicked me a few months back when I read someone say that there therapist had said they did not wind up with an alcoholic by accident and that quite often an alcoholic's partner is 'sicker' than the alcoholic in some ways."

This caused a lump in my throat. Definitely something for me to think about. I mean, I know I am "sick" because I continue to choose addicts as partners. The difference between AH and me, however, is that I am no longer choosing to ignore my "sickness" and working on getting well.
And that there is the ball game. I never thought I would 'win' at anything on ability or talent but I'm firmly convinced I've got the determination to change, get better than I was and do better next time.... One of my best friends pointed out that I took some criticism from him, swallowed hard, changed and did better and it impressed him. That made me feel better than hearing something good to begin with.

We have a running joke around here - we tell the other one they can't do something if we want to see it done.

I better not over think this... Fine line between too determined to fail and too stupid to know when to quit
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Old 01-18-2013, 07:49 AM
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I have a history and a problem with obsessing... obsessing, going over every last detail, rehearsing things I would/could/should say... it was really driving me crazy. I started yelling my head to "STOP" and also pray to God every night to help me get through these obsessive thoughts, to take these thoughts away. I am also on antidepressants and it seems to have helped. Telling myself to STOP and praying have eased the obsessive thinking. Thats all I got
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Old 01-18-2013, 08:19 AM
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"Understandably. I've seen some of the crueler abusers I've dealt with, when we happen to have a psych evaluation to look at (which we often don't have) diagnosed with NPD."

So embarrassing, but I read his psych evaulation from when he and exwife #1 were fighting over the children. It said he was highly manipulative, was unable to feel empathy and the psychiatrist said he was a narcissist. I kid you NOT! My dumb ass thought his exwife had to have manipulated the psychiatrist; because I KNEW him SO well and he was nothing like that. Shaking my head and laughing. At least I can laugh about it now. Jeesh.
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Old 01-18-2013, 11:01 AM
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I went through that a while ago and it was torture, like a swarm of bees living in my head. Even though I knew I didn't like, trust or respect him, he still lived rent-free in my head. My Alanon sponsor suggested I get busy and physically active. Even ten minutes of fast walking clears the mind beautifully. I saw my mind as a kind of primative computer: garbage in, garbage out, and thought of ways to change the programming. What I also realized was that obsessing about him was a way of hanging on to him, an antidote to the fear that had always been in side.
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Old 01-18-2013, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by NYCDoglvr View Post
What I also realized was that obsessing about him was a way of hanging on to him, an antidote to the fear that had always been in side.
very true...
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Old 01-18-2013, 11:23 AM
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I think I have some very serious issues were obessing is concerned as far as my XABF. It really slapped me in the face the other day too or backfired whichever you'd like to call it! I don't have the time to get into that at the moment but do intend to crawl under the table and tell my patheic story soon! Lol I try to laugh at it but I don't really think it's funny. I have a long way to go but I have also come along way! You have to ask yourself, Why would anyone give someone any attention that has been so emotionally and verbally abusive? Just goes to show you how things get so out of hand and ill one can become. However, There is a way out!
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Old 01-18-2013, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Sassydog View Post
I think I have some very serious issues were obessing is concerned as far as my XABF. It really slapped me in the face the other day too or backfired whichever you'd like to call it! I don't have the time to get into that at the moment but do intend to crawl under the table and tell my patheic story soon! Lol I try to laugh at it but I don't really think it's funny. I have a long way to go but I have also come along way! You have to ask yourself, Why would anyone give someone any attention that has been so emotionally and verbally abusive? Just goes to show you how things get so out of hand and ill one can become. However, There is a way out!
I totally agree...
I have been incredibly guilty of obsessing and it's been 6 months now. What will it take for me to move on? I think sometimes we get equally obsessed with all of the awful treatment as we do with the good times. oh well.
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Old 01-18-2013, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by redatlanta View Post
I obsessed this way over my last relationship. He ended it - and I should have. It was a very, very destructive sick relationship not having a thing to do with alcoholism or drugs.

I obsessed for 10 months. Everyday just like you and certainly over those ten months it waned then morphed from extreme anger to sadness and hopelessness that I would never get over. The obsession became and obsession - why can't I stop thinking about the a**hole?????

On to a therapist. She nailed it (for me) in the first session. My problem was not him rather my inability to forgive myself for allowing someone to hurt me so terribly and staying for more. Self flagellation is the way I think about it.

Pointed questions from her like why did you stay, why did you put up with this, why why why - and forcing me to answer was what got me over it. I went to the therapist not for myself really but to describe him and his actions and for her to analyze him and tell me what was wrong with him - I felt that would help me get over it. Btw her analyzes of him was three words 'he's and *******".

It didn't take long once I started seeing her. One day it clicked. It is what it is, I f****d up. Move on.

Been ok ever since.
Thank you for this!

I keep thinking that I stayed and got involved because he was so wonderful but maybe that's not really why. Maybe the why has to do more with ME than him.
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Old 01-18-2013, 05:10 PM
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That is part of my problem right there!

Originally Posted by redatlanta View Post

I obsessed for 10 months. Everyday just like you and certainly over those ten months it waned then morphed from extreme anger to sadness and hopelessness that I would never get over. [B]The obsession became and obsession - why can't I stop thinking about the a**hole?????[B]
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Old 01-18-2013, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by LadySage View Post
Thank you for this!

I keep thinking that I stayed and got involved because he was so wonderful but maybe that's not really why. Maybe the why has to do more with ME than him.
Well, there were no doubt wonderful parts but I can say for myself, that I kept trying to break up with him and kept coming back telling me how much he loved me and wanted to work things out. I guess I am gullible... now it's my really my anger keeping me obsessed I think.
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Old 01-18-2013, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by mmk11 View Post
I constantly think about my STBXAH - we are barely in contact but I think about him all the time. Some of the things are good - how we could laugh with each other. But mostly it is the bad things: the mental and emotional abuse, the blaming and guilt tripping, lying, and lack of empathy. His disrespectful, undignified, and apathetic way he treated me. Kindness one day, utter indifference the next day. My god. I replay scenes in my mind over and over again. How he acted; how I reacted; what I could've done differently to stand up for myself; why was I more concerned about his feelings instead of my own.

I wonder what he is doing, if he is seeing anyone, will I run into him just about anywhere I go. Ridiculous. I am trying to focus on me, so when I think about him I try to steer my thoughts to ME and what I need to do in that moment. It is helping, but requires a lot of mental energy; I'm still not very good at it. But dammit, it seems like sometimes I forget to think about him so then I remember and he consumes my thoughts.

Sometimes when he emails me about home affairs, I respond politely. Then I remember I want "reject" him somehow with a curt response but don't want to appear petty. I want him to give me an opening, per se, so I can unleash on him what I really think/thought about our marriage and separation. He already knows I think his alcoholism was at the root of most, if not all, of our marital problems.

I'm so frustrated that he is on my mind. How am I really moving on when I think so much about him and our past? My final divorce decree is imminent, perhaps that will get me over the mental hump and I'll think about him less and less. I have so much to let go of, I just don't know how.

I continue to read Al-Anon lit, Codependent No More, and about addiction. I'm attending a DivorceCare support group. I see a counselor. I'm on anti-depressents for depression and anxiety. I journal. I read and write here. (seeing all this in writing makes me laugh) I wonder if I'm distracting myself too much and not really focusing on healing emotionally.

I feel like my recovery, healing, and moving on looks good on paper only: I have a new house; I am working out; I stay busy with two jobs. I still have much joy with my friends, family, and felines; I really enjoy being alone in a peaceful, anxiety- and alcoholism-free home.

So why can't I stop thinking about him?

How have you all gotten to a place where you don't think about your XA?

Sorry for the rant :/

I am in almost the same situation as you. And while my ex have very very limited contact. It's a crapshoot as to how I will react. One email I will be, sure, no problem, next email I will be all: why hasn't a nuclear bomb dropped on you yet! I am about 6 months out, and I do want the divorce to be done with already, I still miss aspects about him. The aspects I married. That never were true.

Your emotions are going to be up and down for a long time. A marriage isn't something that was minor. You pledged your life to this man. Expect it, and work through it.


I am closing on a house this week, so I have been trying to be nice to my stbxah, because I want him to sign off on it, in terms that he will not try to get it when our divorce actually happens. And he's being very accomodating. So, now I feel like a complete bitch for hating him for being rational.

It's a touch thing, give yourself a break. You're human. You are going to have good days and shiitty days. It is what it is. Just keep on being you, because you took a stand, for you. That's what eventually matters, not the stuff in-between you getting you back.
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Old 01-19-2013, 05:18 AM
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Originally Posted by mmk11 View Post
I constantly think about my STBXAH - we are barely in contact but I think about him all the time. Some of the things are good - how we could laugh with each other. But mostly it is the bad things: the mental and emotional abuse, the blaming and guilt tripping, lying, and lack of empathy. His disrespectful, undignified, and apathetic way he treated me. Kindness one day, utter indifference the next day. My god. I replay scenes in my mind over and over again. How he acted; how I reacted; what I could've done differently to stand up for myself; why was I more concerned about his feelings instead of my own.

I wonder what he is doing, if he is seeing anyone, will I run into him just about anywhere I go. Ridiculous. I am trying to focus on me, so when I think about him I try to steer my thoughts to ME and what I need to do in that moment. It is helping, but requires a lot of mental energy; I'm still not very good at it. But dammit, it seems like sometimes I forget to think about him so then I remember and he consumes my thoughts.

Sometimes when he emails me about home affairs, I respond politely. Then I remember I want "reject" him somehow with a curt response but don't want to appear petty. I want him to give me an opening, per se, so I can unleash on him what I really think/thought about our marriage and separation. He already knows I think his alcoholism was at the root of most, if not all, of our marital problems.

I'm so frustrated that he is on my mind. How am I really moving on when I think so much about him and our past? My final divorce decree is imminent, perhaps that will get me over the mental hump and I'll think about him less and less. I have so much to let go of, I just don't know how.

I continue to read Al-Anon lit, Codependent No More, and about addiction. I'm attending a DivorceCare support group. I see a counselor. I'm on anti-depressents for depression and anxiety. I journal. I read and write here. (seeing all this in writing makes me laugh) I wonder if I'm distracting myself too much and not really focusing on healing emotionally.

I feel like my recovery, healing, and moving on looks good on paper only: I have a new house; I am working out; I stay busy with two jobs. I still have much joy with my friends, family, and felines; I really enjoy being alone in a peaceful, anxiety- and alcoholism-free home.

So why can't I stop thinking about him?

How have you all gotten to a place where you don't think about your XA?

Sorry for the rant :/
I have been reading this post over and over again - as it describes EXACTLY how I feel. the fact that I can see somebody has been able to put everything in to words - I find comforting because it makes me feel like I am not alone.

I also feel so hurt that after the decades of c**p I put up with - it is STBXAH who filed for a divorce and seems to be gagging for it. Somehow it is going to fix his life and get rid of the cause of all his misery - ie ME! I was on the Newcomers site and saw someone comparing giving up their addiction in the same way as coping with a death. I guess its the same for us - we are also dealing with the loss of our addiction - ie the alcoholic.

For the past few days I have not even bothered to get out of bed - so great has been my anxiety and depression. I am not sure if I have just become obsessed with SR and Alanon but things have been getting to a stage where I cannot find any comfort anywhere. I feel so hopeless and sad - it stays with me for hours - this feeling - then I get some respite when it goes - usually late at night. I wake up the next morning and usually its back again. The 2 things that I have to cling on to is the first reading in 'courage to change' on Responsibility pg 85 I think :-

"
I came to al-anon confused about what was and was not my responsibility. today, after lots of step work, i believe i am responsible for the following: to be loyal to my values; to please myself first; to keep an open mind; to detach with love; to rid myself of anger and resentment; to express my ideas and feelings instead of stuffing them;to attend al-anon meetings and keep in touch with friends in the fellowship; to be realistic in my expectations; to make healthy choices and to be grateful for my blessings.
i also have certain responsibilities to others: to extend a welcome to newcomers; to be of service; to recognize that others have a right to live their own lives; to listen, not just with my ears, but also with my heart; and to share my joy as well as my sorrow.
i am not responsible for my alcoholic loved one's drinking, sobriety, job, cleanliness, diet, dental hygiene, or other choices. it is my responsibility to treat this person with courtesy, gentleness, and love. in this way we both can grow.

today's reminder
today, if i am tempted to interfere with something that is none of my business, i can turn my attention instead to some way in which i can take care of myself.
"

And what I read on the newcomers site about giving up our addiction - ie for us - the alcoholic
:-
1. SHOCK & DENIAL-
You will probably react to learning of the loss with numbed disbelief. You may deny the reality of the loss at some level, in order to avoid the pain. Shock provides emotional protection from being overwhelmed all at once. This may last for weeks.

I relate this to while I was still drinking. Denying the reality, doing anything to avoid dealing with the fact that I have a addiction problem.

2. PAIN & GUILT-
As the shock wears off, it is replaced with the suffering of unbelievable pain. Although excruciating and almost unbearable, it is important that you experience the pain fully, and not hide it, avoid it or escape from it with alcohol or drugs.

You may have guilty feelings or remorse over things you did or didn't do with your loved one. Life feels chaotic and scary during this phase.

This is when the bad stuff starts happening due to drinking-the chaos, the guilt, the consequences of not dealing with it sooner.

3. ANGER & BARGAINING-
Frustration gives way to anger, and you may lash out and lay unwarranted blame for the death on someone else. Please try to control this, as permanent damage to your relationships may result. This is a time for the release of bottled up emotion.

You may rail against fate, questioning "Why me?" You may also try to bargain in vain with the powers that be for a way out of your despair ("I will never drink again if you just bring him back")

This is the stage where you try to moderate. I'll only drink on weekends. I'll only drink beer. I won't have more than one or two. You're bargaining with yourself to avoid dealing with the problem.

4. "DEPRESSION", REFLECTION, LONELINESS-
Just when your friends may think you should be getting on with your life, a long period of sad reflection will likely overtake you. This is a normal stage of grief, so do not be "talked out of it" by well-meaning outsiders. Encouragement from others is not helpful to you during this stage of grieving.

During this time, you finally realize the true magnitude of your loss, and it depresses you. You may isolate yourself on purpose, reflect on things you did with your lost one, and focus on memories of the past. You may sense feelings of emptiness or despair.

This is early on when I quit. It was isolating, a huge time of reflection, often depressing, and a lot of looking back at the effect drinking has had on my life.

7 Stages of Grief...

5. THE UPWARD TURN-
As you start to adjust to life without your dear one, your life becomes a little calmer and more organized. Your physical symptoms lessen, and your "depression" begins to lift slightly.

This was after about 2 months. I started getting more productive, cravings were lessened, better mood.

6. RECONSTRUCTION & WORKING THROUGH-
As you become more functional, your mind starts working again, and you will find yourself seeking realistic solutions to problems posed by life without your loved one. You will start to work on practical and financial problems and reconstructing yourself and your life without him or her.

This is where I'm at now, I think. Adjusting to life without alcohol, problem solving, finances, etc.

7. ACCEPTANCE & HOPE-
During this, the last of the seven stages in this grief model, you learn to accept and deal with the reality of your situation. Acceptance does not necessarily mean instant happiness. Given the pain and turmoil you have experienced, you can never return to the carefree, untroubled is iYOU that existed before this tragedy. But you will find a way forward.

Not here quite yet, but getting better at dealing with the reality each day.

7 stages of grief...

You will start to look forward and actually plan things for the future. Eventually, you will be able to think about your lost loved one without pain; sadness, yes, but the wrenching pain will be gone. You will once again anticipate some good times to come, and yes, even find joy again in the experience of living.


After all this then I say to myself does any of this matter because I have to admit I still love the alcoholic - and that makes me feel trapped and really doomed.
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