seek

This is going to sound extremely obvious, but I just realized my values are incompatible with those of alcoholics.

The bottom line is that alcoholics can stop drinking when they are ready (if they ever decide they want to) . . .so working back from that thought then all of their other actions are their decisions.

It would be one thing if they "accidentally" got drunk and then were told how they had said and done terrible things and they were mortified by that - but I personally have never heard of that happening. That would be the kind of reaction I would expect from someone who was otherwise a decent person but "allergic" to alcohol.

I realized that me trying to cope with alcoholics is a problem because our values are so glaringly different.

I will never be able to wrap my mind around the values of people who simply do not care if they hurt themselves or others. That's the bottom line. I can twist myself into a pretzel, pray to every deity in the universe, and still, I cannot fathom that one character trait.

I admire the alcoholics who seek sobriety and I have never gotten a sincere apology for any shenanigans and worse that I have been put through.

I have been operating as if the people had made errors and must be truly sorry at some level, but I don't see this (not saying there are not those who are truly remorseful and insightful - I have just never met them).

So, for me, having relationships with people who are alcoholics is like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. I also think going to Alanon is trying to jam that square peg into a round hole by telling yourself you are "powerless" and somehow sick, when really you just need to live a life free from the crazyness of alcoholism and alcoholics.

Unfortunately, the alcoholic in my life is a much loved relative - there are also many other alcoholics in my life who I am not so fond of and those people are much easier to "let go" of.

But the problem is one of incompatibility . . .different values, priorities, beliefs.

I honestly just don't understand how people can destroy themselves and others so easily . . .

soberlicious

I would agree.
Reminds me of this quote:
"Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounded by a$$holes." William Gibson

When I was actively addicted, my actions were not congruent with my values. I now know it is morally wrong for me to drink, given that I will not give 2 sh*ts about anyone else if I do.

dandylion

Dear seek---I have always felt that no one can hurt us as deeply (with alcoholism behaviors) as those that we are related to. The bonds go so very deep.

I am in your same situation with this.

very sincerely, dandylion

Hopeworks

A poster on here used to post that "you can wring the alcohol out of an asshat and all you have left is a sober asshat". AA has another saying that "you can get a horse thief sober and all you have left is a sober horse thief".

And those sayings tie into what you are realizing is that sometimes the character defects in an alcoholic were already there and the A has zero interest in stopping drinking or taking action on the character defects.

The 12 steps are an approach to dealing with alcoholism by dealing with the core values and character issues while also dealing with the alcohol or substance abuse. Because this approach to developing a new way to deal with life on a moral and high character basis that does include true remorse, regret and even amends for hurting others it is used by at least 200 other groups as well as individuals worldwide.

Alanon also uses the 12 steps because it helps those who have loved ones find their own serenity and peace with or without the alcoholic. Not everyone who goes to Alanon is "sick" but I was soul sick and in my own denial. I suffered from the disease of alcoholism from my family of origin but alcohol never gave me any relief from my emotional issues and instead drove me to collect alcoholics to love and control.

This doesn't necessarily apply to everyone but I learned that alanon helped me to let go instead of being dragged... even if I wanted to actually drag the alcoholic!

I learned that I am powerless over the alcoholic even though I was homicidal at times and could frighten him into temporary sobriety. (Yes.. this is sick but I never did pull the trigger!).

And I finally got serious with my own recovery and am getting well... really, really well. Emotionally, spirtually and even physically! And my XA got well because he HAD TO or die... I stopped enabling and went NC.

And both my XA and I are growing everyday and very, very active in recovery even though we are 3000 miles apart and have no plans to reconcile. Our individual recoveries are more important than anything else... whatever it takes!

But.. the A must want it more than life itself. Like starving for oxygen and struggling to the surface and being close to drowning... that kind of desperation for true authentic recovery which is becoming a person of high character who is completely honest and trustworthy to himself and others.

And most A's simply do not want to do that kind of hard, hard work or dedication to changing themselves... their entire being and lifestyle.

I hope my own experience helps you see that it can work if the alcoholic want to change...and alanon can be a huge help especially for ACOA's like myself but can help anyone.

Tellmenolies

I must say I agree with what you are saying and thanks !!

PohsFriend

Part if the addicts misery is knowing that they are behaving in a manner that is not consistent with their values.

I need to reason things out for myself and explain them before I can let go of them sometimes.

I've been thinking about rock bottom...

I think it is pretty much like a scale. The addict adds alcohol to balance out the pain in their life. Eventually, the alcohol induced misery is greater than the other pain - only then does the addict say "I grave to stop"

I don't see addiction as a character flaw. Before I understood alcoholism I was a heavy drinker. A double bourbon before dinner, half bottle of wine with dinner then maybe another bourbon 3-4 times per week. I scaled that back after a few times where I got really drunk. When my wife asked me to quit for her sobriety's sake I did and hid the one bottle I had... She found it and drank it, I did not know until ten weeks later because I didn't need alcohol, I just like alcohol. Do I have more character because I chose to stop? No.


Let's be careful when talking values with a broad brush. An addicts actions might also be in conflict with their own values. They are responsible for what they do and should face the consequences that result. ...but the presence of addiction doesn't preclude the presence of morality. It's bad enough getting over the ****** things we all do, we don't have to tack on "oh yeah, and you're a bad person too"... Do we?

soberlicious

No, but the presence of addiction certainly erodes morality to the point of being unrecognizable.

Acknowledging the things I've done is important for me. The last incident impacted my children greatly and there was a real threat I would lose them. I am fully responsible for my actions and for doing better. I can look at my own wrongdoings without tacking on the "you're a bad person too" part...and I will go as far as to add this: Now that I know better, I must do better. If I don't, well then yes, that makes me "a bad person". My .02.

WastedTimes

Based on my own experiences, I've always thought of addiction as somewhat analogous with other every day human needs; for instance, you need to eat. You get hungry, the urge overtakes you and you eat. Look at how many people try to lose weight and fail. They just can't help themselves from eating that extra piece of cake. Fortunately for them, that cake doesn't lower their inhibitions, alter their reasoning and affect their own moral code. The alcoholic doesn't start out addicted, but once the body needs the alcohol I think the urge might be quite similar. And not giving in just as hard. Add to this that eating the "cake" takes away the pain, and gives instant euphoria, and the whole situation gets even more complicated. Yes, the "alcoholic can stop drinking when they want to". But depending on the severity of their alcoholism this might be the mental/emotional equivalent of asking them to starve. They don't want to hurt themselves or others. They are just overcome by their body screaming to drink because it thinks that it needs to to survive.

seek

If the above scenario was accurate, no one would ever get sober.

The truth is that we all have choice.

seek

I wrote this thread not to denigrate the alcoholic but to clarify that there is a problem with incompatibility of values. It helps me to understand that the alcoholic is choosing their path - whether I like it or not.

hamabi

Yes, I understand that you can't/don't understand alcoholism.

seek

I have thought about this for a long time. If it helps you to think I am just ignorant, that's great.

I wrote the thread to remind myself of a key truth - I had been struggling thinking the alcoholics had made errors in their thinking/behavior and would correct their courses.

Now I see that there is a basic difference in values.

If no one ever COULD get sober, my perspective would be incorrect. But as we all know, it is up to the alcoholic and when or if they "hit bottom" they can and do get sober . . . it's strictly up to them, as we know - no one else.

WastedTimes

Seek, this is just an analogy to try and help those that do not understand the "urge" to drink when someone if physically addicted to alcohol. Once someone is physically dependent upon alcohol the body thinks it "needs" it; even though it doesn't. That is why it is so hard for some to get sober, because the "urge" is so strong. But since the body doesn't actually need it, yes, it is possible to get sober. Just hard sometimes.

seek

While that is no doubt true, regardless, it is up to the alcoholic at any point to get help or not. Some do and some don't. Whether it is difficult or not is not really the issue.

ZiggyB

I would tend to agree with you. Although I know alcoholism is a disease most of the time axbf would deny the fact that he had a drinking problem and say he was more outgoing and sociable than I was (and that's why he had to be at bars all the time).

He had some definite psychological problems and never sought help for those or the drinking, he would claim he was out of money but always had money for booze, cigars or new clothing. He would deal with his problems by venting his anger on me. I just don't think he cared that much about acting like an adult and that's the end of the story.

thislonelygirl

Haha ziggyb-
Yes I would think those using do not want nor do act like adults.
Heres an interesting drunken qoute by my ah when our 2 yr old cried one night and I
Said to him she is 2 she will outgrow it and he replied
"On that note I am just drunk eventually I will grow up"

Woooowwwww! Lol

Thumper

We are all responsible for what we do to. As a co-dependent loved one I spent a lot of time trying to get in my a's head. Trying to look past his actions in the name of compassion, obligation, love, duty, tenacity, hard work. Those are all values of mine too but it makes me sick to think about it now. I sacrificed or twisted a lot of other values I hold dear to stand there and analyze his actions away. Alcoholism chewed up two sets of values and spit out wreckless toxic crap.

So now my motto is if xyz doesn't mesh with my values - I will kick my own ass if I spend two seconds wondering why instead of figureing out how to uphold them.

Even more reason to get out of their way and leave them to it. We are POWERLESS. No reason or point in getting run over by that train.

lillamy

I think I tend to agree with PohsFriend here.
I don't know a single alcoholic who says "I'm an alcoholic and I like waking up in my own puke and denigrating my family and ruining my own life." I think it's more an issue of lying to themselves about living up to their own values than having "immoral" values.

My ex donates to causes for abused women. He is appalled at the suggestion that he's an abuser. He despises drug addicts but drinks every day. He thinks deadbeat dads are the lowest of the low, yet doesn't pay child support. His values are intact. It's just his way of spinning what HE does to be able to believe he still lives according to them, that's where something is broken.

LifeRecovery

Slightly different struggle for me and my addiction.

However at my lowest this is what hurt me the most. I was not living up to my belief system of how to be a healthy, well adjusted person.

The guilt from that was extreme and overpowering that I could not live up to my own ideals and values.

For me this kept me in the cycle a long time. It was a viscous one, and I named it, and started working on it at 17 and got serious about it at 23.

I don't think my values were the issue....I think my way of coping with them was.

Not living up to others expectations is really hard, not living up to my own was untenable...and it created a desire to numb out.

The above was about my eating disorder, but as I wrote it I realized that I created a similar pattern with codependent behavior....trying to make it all okay, when it was not okay, trying harder etc. The same pattern but a slightly different snowball that turned into an avalanche.

ru12

Seek, I think your first post is a fair approximation. I wish you peace in the new year.