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AH thinks he should be allowed to occasionally drink like a regular person. ugh!



AH thinks he should be allowed to occasionally drink like a regular person. ugh!

Old 12-27-2012, 09:50 AM
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You obviously haven't read any of my posts too closely. I have a masters degree in bad typing and any skills I had in spelling have long since vanished due to spell checkers.



Your friend,
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:18 AM
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Yo. Chill, m1k3---cause typin skill an speling skill aint any requirement for admission to this here board!!!

You are a great asset.

Sincerely, dandylion
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Old 12-27-2012, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by BrokenHeartWife View Post
I don't agree that a person can't have a reasonable discussion with an A when they are sober and calm. If that weren't true, then a sponsor could never have a reasonable discussion with his sponsee.
I had many reasonable discussions with my ah. Some were before he started drinking, some after. Our discussions were almost always extremely reasonable. However - the follow through was just not there. It was never ever there. That alcoholism came first, no matter how unreasonable it was.

Originally Posted by BrokenHeartWife View Post
I think one problem that spouses have is that with any other disease, we would be "involved" with the recovery. But with alcoholism, we're supposed to be almost disinterested partners...praying and hoping from afar. It's counter-intuitive for some of us.
It is counter-intuitive. The difference is that the alcoholic has the voice of addiction inside their head and they follow that voice no matter what we say or do. We can't compete with it, that is the nature of addiciton. That voice is what separates the alcoholic from the non-alcoholic and the disease of addiction from the disease of diabetes. A diabetic is still able to 'hear' us and to consider us. A daibetic is still able to make a spousal relationship a priority. An alcoholic does not hear us - he hears the addiction. It calls him and it makes us the enemy. The voice of addiction takes them in the opposite direction. If they follow that voice, like an active addict does, it is the primary relationship. The spouse, the job, the kids, the home, all of it gets left behind. We have no control over that voice.
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Old 12-27-2012, 12:40 PM
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Every smoker knows how harmful it is. All smokers are well aware of the risks of lung cancer, emphysema. kidney cancer, throat cancer, etc. No amount of logic or discussions will make a smoker stop. A smoker will not stop until he/she is ready. Thats just how addiction works.

P.S. As I type this, I am lighting a cigarette after quitting for 2 yrs, then 8 weeks then 6weeks. All while knowing my favorite Aunt is battling lung cancer. ughhhhh
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Old 12-28-2012, 08:41 AM
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I read that you plan to stay with this person, who is not prepared -definitely not now, and only God knows if he will ever be- to be honest with himself and recover from his addictions.

Is this the life you imagined for yourself? is this why you think God (HP) put you on Earth.. to worry about someone who is NOT worried about himself? someone who is NOT caring about you either (for reasons only he knows...)?

I do not mean to sound blunt, but I have learned addictions are like an abyss, consuming everything around them. We F&F have to realize we matter, too, we have to take care of ourselves, we have to define how taking care of ourselves looks like.

No, this is not the life that I had imagined. For about the first 20 years of our marriage, AH rarely drank. His PD would occasionally flare up, but not nearly as often as it will with alcohol involved. When his depression/anxiety issues began really flaring (because of work and an ill/dying father issue) and he turned to alcohol at night to help him fall asleep.

AH has LOTS of unresolved issues with his dead father, so before and after his death, AH really came "unglued". FIL died over 7 years ago. I've lost both of my beloved parents in the last 24 months, so I know how painful that can be, but AH's "grieving process" is like nothing I've ever witnessed before. Anger, anger, anger at his relatives for VERY poorly managing the last few years of his dad's life. and, of course, AH struggles with lots of unresolved issues with his dad because FIL was a total control freak and self-absorbed "my way or the highway" kind of person.

I came from a very normal family...parents married over 50 years, no drugs, no alcohol, stable income, lots of siblings, no mental illnesses. H came from a somewhat similar family, but both of his parents were non-drinking Adult Children of Alcoholics. In hindsight, his family does have depression and anxiety issues, and his dad likely also had a personality disorder (he would "split" also.)

Anyway.... I never expected to have these issues invade our homelife. It breaks my heart that AH thinks that he could handle a drink or two (which is another joke...as most alkies do, my H thinks that ONE glass of wine is a BIG goblet filled to the top...lol...which we all know is really 2-3 glasses of wine.)

His depression is really hitting him hard these days. He's anxious over having to call his brother to tell him that we're not getting divorced. As I've mentioned earlier, his brother (and other relatives) blame me for everything (his alcoholism, depression, anger) so they naturally think that divorce is best. They have never been a part of our lives, so their advice is based on Alkie lies that my AH has told them. So, for the past week, AH has been fretting over talking to them on the phone. He knows that he's going to sound like an idiot saying that he's staying with the same wife that he's been claiming is the world's worst person on the planet. lol

We are back home today (we were at our vacation home over Christmas) so hopefully he'll resume his AA meetings AND find a sponsor! I can only hope and pray.
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Old 12-28-2012, 04:04 PM
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IDK, if my husband bad mouthed me with lies to his family, then didn't have the personal integrity to take ownership of the lies, drinking again would be the final straw for me. He would be packed and sent back to his family.

Trust me, my husband was no saint, in fact he was a jerk on many occasions. But if he wasn't trying to make amends every day in his actions, we would not be together.
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Old 12-28-2012, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by LoveMeNow View Post
IDK, if my husband bad mouthed me with lies to his family, then didn't have the personal integrity to take ownership of the lies, drinking again would be the final straw for me. He would be packed and sent back to his family.

Trust me, my husband was no saint, in fact he was a jerk on many occasions. But if he wasn't trying to make amends every day in his actions, we would not be together.

I totally understand that thinking.

I do think that eventually AH will come to terms with that. He's slowly coming to that. He used the term "garbage in, garbage out" in reference to family...meaning that they were told garbage so they believe garbage.

The problem is that he's not to the point of saying that the things he said were "lies" because the word "lie" is very sensitive to him. He "flips out" if anyone every accuses him of lying because he thinks he's the most honest person in the world. But he has a PD, so his perception is often far from reality.

To give you an example. Before we left our vacation home, we (mostly ME) spent the day cleaning it up before we left. The few things AH did (empty the dishwasher, sweep the patio, and vacuum) were done very well and I thanked him for those things.

At one point he was rearranging some bags I had arranged in two locations ....one set of bags was going home with us, and the other set was going into the storage closet. AH began mixing the bags up. I stopped him and told him that the items in each pile were there for a reason and to leave them alone.

Later on that evening AH complained that I had been "correcting him all day long." When I asked him for specific examples (because I knew that I had only corrected him one time), he was at a loss for words. Again, I asked him for examples, and he (finally) came up with the packages issue. When I pointed out that that was only ONE incident and that I had complimented him and thanked him for the other chores that he had done, he wasn't satisfied. That's the personality disorder coming out. Those with PDs often use words like "always" and "never" when complaining about others. "XXXXX always does this"...or "XXXXX never does that."

So, that's very likely what went on when talking to his family. He likely uses "Always" and "Never" phrases about me (she always criticizes me....she's always telling me what to do....she always has to have her own way.....she's a control freak....she never compliments me....she never does anything for me....she spends all our money....she always says terrible things about my relatives, etc, etc. ) So, it's going to be hard to get him to think back at those things and consider them as "lies"....even tho they really are.

As for accusing me of having an affair. He insists that he later told them that I didn't. However, I've never really trusted if/how he ever cleared that up with them.

After all, if your brother told you that his wife had an affair, and then later he told you that she didn't, you would want more details, such as: Why did you think she had? What makes you now say that you didn't? Well, AH wouldn't likely tell them the true story behind the accusation since it would be so lame. I was in my hometown and went to football game with my sister. We ran into some old high school classmates. We all sat together during the game, cheering our old team. It was VERY cold and I had gloves on (so my ring was covered). When the game ended, one of the men asked me out for a drink. I politely declined, mentioned that I was married, and went home with my sister. Later, I called my H and told him about it...thinking it was "no big deal." After all, the guy probably assumed I was single since it was a Friday night and I wasn't with a man at the game. Well, AH flipped out after hearing the story (which shocked me). He FIRST accused me of flirting and "leading the guy on". Then, the next day he progressed to: "I bet you went out with him. I bet you had an affair." Then he called his mom and told her that I had cheated on him. His mom then proceeded to tell everyone else. Supposedly, later, AH told them that I hadn't cheated on him, but I doubt he told the real story since he'd look like an idiot. More likely he altered the story a bit to make it sound like I had "spent time" with this guy but didn't go "too far." That's just my guess, because I don't think he'd tell the total truth because everyone would wonder why he assumed that I had cheated. This happened about 6 years ago. Since I don't have contact with these people, I've never been able to ask what they were told. Anyway...ever since that crazy story was told to them, they have believed that AH should divorce me. (so obviously they weren't really told the truth.)
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Old 12-28-2012, 05:43 PM
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BHW - What is in this relationship for you? It sounds like you must walk on eggshells all the time having to be careful what you say - at the same time personified by your husband in a negative and untruthful way to his family.
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Old 12-28-2012, 05:57 PM
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Just a word of caution. Many rehabs and Dr's diagnosis way too early.

I have read and heard many people's horror stories about many misdiagnosis (bipolar, pd, schizo affective disorder, ADHD) when in early recovery.
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Old 12-28-2012, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by redatlanta View Post
BHW - What is in this relationship for you?
A very good question to ask yourself. Does this marriage enhance your life? Or does it drag you down?

When I asked myself those questions, I could not come up with a good reason to preserve the relationship. I found out that I was hanging on to it, mostly because I had already invested two decades of my life in it. But, was it worth investing two more? Life is short...

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Old 12-28-2012, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by LoveMeNow View Post
Just a word of caution. Many rehabs and Dr's diagnosis way too early.

I have read and heard many people's horror stories about many misdiagnosis (bipolar, pd, schizo affective disorder, ADHD) when in early recovery.

I can imagine that's so, but my H has been correctly diagnosed with a PD by 2 different therapists, none which knew of the prior diagnoses. My sister, also a therapist with over 20 years of experience, has concurred with the dx...and she's known him from the beginning of our relationship. H's PD is quite obvious to those who are "in the biz". To lay people like me, some of the behaviors just seemed a bit odd. I didn't know that they were big red flags for a PD.


BHW - What is in this relationship for you? It sounds like you must walk on eggshells all the time having to be careful what you say - at the same time personified by your husband in a negative and untruthful way to his family.

The relatives issue is annoying but since they aren't really in our lives it hasn't been a huge deal for me until they convinced him to file for divorce. (I haven't seen or spoken to any of them in 7 years...last time I saw them was for a few hours at FIL's memorial service). Yes, part of me would like to "set the record straight", but I have to be patient with that. I really think that time is on my side. When H was staying with them for 2 months during his day-patient rehab, they did get some glimpses of unreasonable behavior....so they are now more aware that he's no angel. He stayed with them during the Presidential Election and was very argumentative with them about the candidates, issues, etc.

When H was drinking, I did have to walk on eggshells all them time because the effects of alcohol made his PD much worse. Since he's not drinking now, his PD is much less of a problem. For instance, if he was drinking, we never could have had yesterday's discussion without it escalating into a big deal. Instead, the whole thing was like 2 minutes...and then we went and got something to eat.


On a slightly related note: I'm a little disappointed with one aspect of H's rehab. It seemed to have done little-to-nothing to help adjust back to the real world. H had a LOT of freedom during his rehab days. At first, he attended daily sessions Mon - Friday from 9am - 3pm (weekends off). But then sessions quickly were reduced to a few half-days a week and then down to one half-day a week. So the rest of his time was spent sleeping in, going to the gym, watching TV....essentially not doing anything productive. It was too much like a very long vacation. So, now it's been a little hard for H to adjust being back in the work world.
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Old 12-28-2012, 07:16 PM
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But BHW, that was his choice to nothing productive, not the rehabs. Is he getting any help now? Attending meetings? Seeing a psychiatrist? A therapist??
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Old 12-28-2012, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by LoveMeNow View Post
But BHW, that was his choice to nothing productive, not the rehabs. Is he getting any help now? Attending meetings? Seeing a psychiatrist? A therapist??
I agree. I just think the rehab should have been more pro-active. I think that he should have been kept so busy that going back to work would almost be a relief (lol). Surely they should have been able to predict that when addicts have too much free time that they won't like going back to the "rat race" of the real world.

We see this here on this forum. Addicts who aren't working and they're being couch potatoes all day. They've gotten "used" to having a very relaxed schedule of doing things only when THEY want to do them.

I WISH he was seeing a psychiatrist now. He was during rehab. He was also seeing a good therapist - a well-trained one who worked with the psychiatrist.

His therapist in our home-town is worthless. She's a cream puff. There are different kinds of therapists, and she's not trained to deal with PDs or really much of anything that is serious. H has been seeing her for about 2 years. She knew about his drinking, yet she never recommended AA because she believed his lies that he had it "under control" (what kind of therapist believes those lies??). She finally recommended Rehab after I texted her in August telling her that AH was (again) threatening suicide. I guess the first threat didn't concern her enough. :/

As for AA meetings... Once he returned from rehab, he had been attending AA meetings on a semi-regular basis (not often enough). He didn't go to any while we were out of town because the area really didn't offer many - mostly early in the morning, and AH is NOT a morning person. I hope that now that we're back home that he'll start going again. (Again, his cream puff therapist sure isn't pushing him to go! And, I know that I'm not supposed to push, so I won't.)

I am going to suggest that he find another therapist - one who is clinically trained to deal with PDs and addictions.
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Old 12-28-2012, 07:51 PM
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BrokenheartWife, as I read your posts in this thread I can feel my inner Codie rising to the surface and I want to give you all sorts of advice and try to help you avoid so much of the pain that I went through. Luckily for both of us I am strong enough in my recovery to skip that.

So, since I like to dabble in zen and a big part of zen is to look at try and look at things differently, to break out of old habits I will ask you a simple question.

If your best friend just told you all the things you have just told us, what advice would you honestly give to her?

Your friend,
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Old 12-28-2012, 08:09 PM
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BHW, my recovery is not as strong as Mikes, lol, so...... you remind me of me in the beginning and thats not a good thing.

"Everyone else is the problem."

His family, his therapist, his rehab, him, his income, etc, etc....Can you see any role you play in this at all?? I say this with love and respect - If you truly want to help your husband, help yourself first. Many of us play a role, we make excuses, we blame shift, we deflect, we deny, we manipulate, we play arm chair psychiatrists, (much like our qualifiers). Keep reading and keep posting, it will help!! Have you read anything about codependency?? There is no more shame in being codependent then there is being an addict. The shame is if you don't seek recovery for either.
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Old 12-28-2012, 08:19 PM
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LoveMeNow, you wouldn't believe how much of my post got deleted before I was done with it. The everyone else is the problem just jumped out at me as we'll but I couldn't think of a good way to say it. Thank goodness you did come up with the right words.

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Old 12-29-2012, 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by LoveMeNow View Post
BHW, my recovery is not as strong as Mikes, lol, so...... you remind me of me in the beginning and thats not a good thing.

"Everyone else is the problem."

His family, his therapist, his rehab, him, his income, etc, etc....Can you see any role you play in this at all?? I say this with love and respect - If you truly want to help your husband, help yourself first. Many of us play a role, we make excuses, we blame shift, we deflect, we deny, we manipulate, we play arm chair psychiatrists, (much like our qualifiers). Keep reading and keep posting, it will help!! Have you read anything about codependency?? There is no more shame in being codependent then there is being an addict. The shame is if you don't seek recovery for either.

I don't think everyone else is the problem. I think H is the common denominator. He has misled his family, he prefers a therapist who is "easy on him," he doesn't want to believe that alcoholics can't turn back the clock and become "normal drinkers," he hasn't made an effort to get a new sponsor in our home area, he doesn't take his meds correctly, he can often be incredibly lazy and self-centered, he doesn't take responsibility for his actions, he isn't honest with himself or others, etc.

Obviously, it's not his fault that he has a PD - that was likely inherited and the result of his early upbringing (very angry father and super-lenient and inattentive mother). It's not his fault that he has depression and anxiety issues - again, those are also likely inherited and the result of his early upbringing. However, it is his fault for not seeking proper treatment for these issues and preferring the "magic pill" of alcohol or meds to (ha ha) fix the problem. I also blame him for acting impulsively and not waiting til he's calm to make serious decisions.

That said, I do think that those who are accepting large amounts of money (his therapist and rehab) have some responsibility to do their job. His current therapist is no more than a "paid friend" who gladly takes our money and likely makes her monthly car payment with it. She's the type whose only response to whatever she's told is "and how do you feel about that?" Is that worth $500 a month? lol
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Old 12-29-2012, 05:46 AM
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I deal with a bit of your situation - BPII, anxiety, OCD, depression with RAH. I also agree that the anxiety, depression and OCD being the result of family dysfunction. "I can't help it" was a common comment in our home for a looooonnnggg time, too long. Certainly my heart strings were pulled and I am still sympathetic for the emotional abuse RAH still deals with but enough. I don't accept that lame excuse anymore at some point one has to accept it is what it is - and you don't get a free ride in life (to say, do, and not do) because of it.

There are good and bad doctors everywhere - these people have no more power to help your husband than you or I do. Someone who goes in with the attitude that they want changes are the people who succeed. Its easy to turn it back on the professionals and say they aren't doing their job - AH isn't doing HIS job. Those meds are worthless without taking them properly.

Based on everything you have written starting with that he thinks he can drink every once in while.........he isn't with the program he's just going through the motions.

Did you make some boundaries for yourself when he came back from rehab and are you sticking to them?
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Old 12-29-2012, 07:29 AM
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Good morning BHW.

There really isn't anything any of us can tell you to help you make your husband better. But, I will say they are a lot of things you can do to start making your life better regardless of the choices your husband makes about his getting better.

For me probably the most important was that I am allowed to take care of myself, not only that but I'm allowed to take care of myself first.

This was also a really hard lesson to learn because if I was taking care of me I felt like I was abandoning my wife to her troubles, that I was being selfish, a bad husband and besides I was sure my love was enough to save her.

Needless to say, I was wrong. By the time I hit my bottom, that point where it is impossible to continue to live the way I was living, I was in as bad, if not worse shape than she was. I had reached a point where I would lie in bed at night and fantasize about being dead. That is not a good place to be. It really scared me because the next step was pretty obvious that I would act on the fantasy.

Once I started to focus on me and my problems rather than my wife and her problems I could finally take those first steps to recovery. I also figured out that by focusing on her problems and issues I could avoid looking at mine and trust me I had a boat load of them.

What worked for me was posting and reading here a lot, Al-Anon, exercising and getting back into meditation again. I also dida lot of reading on mindfulness, Al-Anon literature, Buddhism and alcoholism.

In a lot of posts on this forum you will see people refer to their A as their DOC, or drug of choice. I can't speak for them but i know that it was true for me.

So, on this forum you will read things from lots of different points of view, from different recovery paths and from different places on the recovery path. Not everything you read will apply or work for you at this point in time. Al-Anonhas a good saying for this. Take what you want and leave the rest.

Your friend,
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Old 12-29-2012, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by BrokenHeartWife View Post
I don't think he meant it that way. He's not saying that I'm making the decision. I think he's saying that he's "not as bad as others, so he should give himself permission...."
And yet he's not making the connection that if he gives himself permission he will indeed get "as bad as the others"...
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