MrsDragon

Don't know exactly how to ask this question. Our son has always drank responsibly, but when he was faced with severe grief he chose to numb himself with alcohol. Did this for about 3 months (plus cocaine), got very sick emotionally, was hospitalized, did some work with a Dr. for a few months, seemed much better, started working again, found out a few months ago he was drinking and using cocaine again. My husband made him take a leave of absence from work to sort himself out. We offered to help with rehab, support private counseling again, whatever be felt he needed. He felt he needed vacation time and continued his behavior to some extent.

He says he is neither an alcoholic, or a drug addict and he chooses when he wants to drink, use drugs, bring these same types people into his life.

At first we doubted this, but it almost seems true. He is always sober around us, he has been spending more time around us voluntarily, he will sometimes have a glass of wine at dinner, or a drink after dinner with his dad. But he always stops at one or two. He went on vacation with a non-using girlfriend and she came back saying he did no drugs, did not drink too much, he has been complaining of being bored and asked his dad if he could do some work for him; unpaid, no credit, just to keep him busy. My son and husband are both attorneys. So he has worked from our house for almost 3 weeks now as my husband doesnt want him at the office yet. All has been fine. He has been drinking coffee, soda, even juice during the day. He again has never appeared under the influence of anything including cocaine.

One of the things Ive been watching since reading here on SR is to watch his actions and his attitude. He does not seem to have the characteristics of a drug addict from what I can see. Not sure about the drinking aspects, but like I said he always appears sober, he does not ask us for things, he is thoughtful and will bring something over often when he comes, some might say it is trivial but he will pick up something from the bakery, bring an extra coffee if he stops at Starbucks on his way over, sometimes he brings me flowers before Sunday dinner which he almost always comes to. He asks about me and my husband and conversations are not all about him. In fact he rarely will complain to us about problems in his life. He genuinely seems interested in our lives. He has shown some anger towards his dad for making him take off work, but he also accepts responsibility, and has had some long talks with husband about his behavior at work.

He says he learned his lesson this time, that he has things to work out in his own head, but knows be can't indulge in drinking, or do drugs because life won't get better. (also think he was shaken up because one of his using/drinking girlfriends got drunk stole his credit card, other possessions, ran up thousands of online charges, and cut him with broken glass). Maybe it did help him see things were getting out of hand?

He says he is lonely, but realizes he has to get himself together before he can be in a good relationship. He has been "dating" a lot, but is for the most part emotionless about any of them. He's using them, which as a woman I find disturbing my son is "that type of man" but for now he is, I do at least understand why. He says he wants more and to have a relationship of substance.

My husband is thinking about letting him come back to work after the New Year if he continues to do well through the holidays.

I guess I'm wondering from your experiences, what does this sound like? Is he only fooling himself (and us) because he wants to go back to work, and then will fall back into these patterns that he "chooses"? My husbands only concern is having him come back and then making him leave again (and he will if he feels the need). Husband really does not want to drug test him, doesn't want any drug use records within the HR dept either. Can't really test for alcohol anyway, and think this may be what he would turn to first again before the drugs.

If you have similar experiences, or can say what your loved one has done to prove to employers they are ok to work?

Husband and I have had some counseling ourselves with a dr that specializes in addictions and has been very helpful. He thinks mainly our son has unresolved grief, and uses substances for escape. We have seen some signs of his working on grief issues these past few months, but without professional help. Know he has further to go but take this as a hopeful sign.

Thank you for your insight.

catlovermi

My experience is that, at a place of employment, IF the employee is given a second chance, it is usually after a period of professional help, after which the business takes them back ONCE with an absolute zero tolerance policy. Any more signs of the previous issue, and they are fired on the spot, and escorted out, no more chances, period.

This does not provide much assurance to the employer that the professional treatment has "worked" but does limit their liability if the issue arises again, in a clear-cut manner.

CLMI

doggonecarl

Why does he have to come back and work for his dad? It puts both of them in a difficult situation because of the various dynamics involved.

It's a big wide world out there. He's man. Let him find work elsewhere.

"...he chooses when he wants to drink, use drugs"

That's how I justified my drug use for years and years.

LoveMeNow

MrsDragon -

I am curious did your husband ever rehire the man who actually went to rehab and sought out professional help? IIRC, he has not being rehired because your husband wanted him to continue to work on himself.

Has your son sought any kind of help?? In recent months, he was asked to leave the firm for an impropriety that should have resulted in legal action, however your husband chose not press charges.

He poured red dye in your pool, leaving a "bloody" looking towel and a gun on the deck, as a sick prank. Then had sex with a girl in the bloody looking pool, all while knowing you were having a party that weekend and that you had cameras to view the "show."

Your husband discovered a hand gun and a large amount of cocaine in his apartment, not in his underwear draw though because that would just be so "ewww" to look in.

The list can go on and on, I am sure.

Allowing your son to go back to his job without any outside or in house counseling sounds like a very misguided idea, IMO. All he has done, based on own your posts is vacation with different woman and track a very expensive European car's for his pleasure. In addition, do you really think his girlfrienda are going to tell you, the mother, the truth if he is was using drugs while away? How are you she wasn't using as well?

P.S. I was dumb enough in my younger years to try cocaine and drink while in college. Thankfully, I didn't like it but no one could tell. I highly doubt I would know if someone was doing it either now. I would highly suggest you and your husband go see the movie Flight and continue seeing your counselor before making any decisions.

Also, Just an FYI - there are drug tests for alcohol not that I would never recommend them for a grown man.

Justfor1

The fact that he is has money makes it particularly dangerous. Of course, he is going to have drinking/using that are going to lie for him & be his friend. He has the money & probably funding the party. It also will make his bottom a bit harder to reach. Having money will give you options. The "wino' at the Salvation Army has less options & may have no other alternative than to get sober. Having read that he is a lawyer I hope he is well versed in criminal law. As having guns, large amounts of cocaine equal law enforcement sooner or later.

redatlanta

I read through your posts I remember reading about the issue with the young girl in the hotel room and your son getting cut - her calling you hysterical.

I too am curious about the employee who got caught at the same time as your son using cocaine as well. This employee was drug tested, which was put in his employee file. He was offered paid treatment and took it, your son refused it. Your husband didn't drug test your son because he didn't want him to have a record with HR. Your husband suspended him which you didn't want. The employee who went through treatment who was an excellent attorney wanted his job back but you felt "he had burned that bridge". In the meantime there was the unfortunate bloody pool/sex incident and the 21 year old incident. And the trip to Mustique as your son said instead of going to treatment he preferred to take vacation - plus the many women (it sounds like) that you say he uses because he is unable to have a good relationship.

I think he is QUACKING.

Accountability is a big part of recovery. I don't see any in fact what I see is your son has been taught that when he does the same illegal things that other people do he doesn't get the same punishment. He gets a trip to Mustique not a trip to rehab. And he gets his job back.

No way would I let him back at that job without treatment.

choublak

Who chooses when they want to use drugs? Casual cocaine users?

Justfor1

Drugs like cocaine/heroin are often hard to "use casually." At this point it is usually all or nothing.

fourmaggie

perhaps time to set some loving boundaries..?

Tuffgirl

I don't really think you'll know - since none of us can predict the future - until more is revealed. I have seen people use copious amounts of substances during times of acute stress, and then walk away from it one day and never look back.

I think its more of a question of whether or not you and your husband want to take another chance on him. I'd be hesitant too, especially regarding protecting other employees. It's a hard decision to make...especially when its our kid. Maybe give it some more time?

MrsDragon

Thanks everyone for your comments.

It does make things more complicated because my husband is both father/employer. The two of them have always had a close relationship, however my son has not always worked for his dad. I have talked to my husband regarding his feelings about this; he doesn’t feel obligated to supply him with employment, but truthfully he does enjoy their working relationship, and it appears son values this also because he has had other opportunities and passed on them.

I think the confusion we have is based on what we see. After my husband forced him to take the leave from work, he responded with his pool prank. I was fairly upset when I made that post, because it was a nasty sight, but in truth it was pool dye, and a water pistol. And yes the girl but we didn’t actually watch that once we realized what was going on. Certain that was all prompted by cocaine. After that we had a family meeting to discuss what we would not tolerate; and since then there have been no more issues. That is also confusing, because it backs up his being in control speak. Since my husband confronted him months ago with evidence of the drugs; he will talk openly about it now with us. The girlfriend that doesn’t use; I think this is true, plus she made the comments in front of him and he responded by telling all of us that just because he didn’t use, or drink too much for two weeks while on vacation, it didn’t mean he wouldn’t do it again. Also, his ex wife (who was before all this started & i know has no agenda to protect him) stayed with him a week at Thanksgiving, she said there wa no sign of drugs or him drinking too much, and they had some really good talks; he did seem to come off that week highly introspective. Again all confusing, and is this possible if he is really out of contol? its hard to for us to rationalize.

We want to promote healthy behaviors, and his desire to work again seems to be a positive. He has always enjoyed his career & the pressure and stress of work dont seem to affect him negatively. Husband has talked about requiring him to start counseling again. As parents it is something we have encouraged but not pushed because we feel he needs to make that decision on his own. His ex wife also encouraged this on her own because she has been doing it for herself and thought it would help him. However as an employer, it seems reasonable to make this request. He has no interest in rehab, no interest in meetings, or sharing with others. The counseling he has been on/off the fence about. My husband and I have been told that CBT therapy is most effective for his types of issues with substances and especailly the cocaine.

Maybe it is only that husband and I are afraid to take that leap and attempt to really force him - tie it to being a requirement for work? Its so hard because although I know he needs professional help, he seems stable now and I guess part of my problem is Im afraid to rock the boat. What if he says the (F) to both of us and work, and just goes back to his vacation? Would be proof all this change' he is showing us is just a lie, and would back up we made the right decision wouldnt it?

FireSprite

I have to agree with Red here.

Mrs Dragon, I've read your posts since you started sharing here at SR. Your son's antics since this all started seem incredibly immature for someone of his age & status. You talk about his actions but then explain it away (It was 'just' pool dye, etc.) which is just another type of enabling on your part. It wasn't about the dye so much as about the intent to embarrass & retaliate against your husband for treating him like a grown man who should be accountable for the problems he himself has created. As a mother I too understand our need to protect our children even from themselves, but when you soften the edges of these events by way of explanation you aren't doing him any favors & seem to be working hard to convince yourself that these are isolated incidents rather than part of the larger web of addiction. You aren't alone - this factor is what prevented me from fully seeing my husband's addiction as well. I know how easily it is to get wrapped up in the little stuff & miss the bigger picture.

In my personal opinion, he should have to do no less than any other employee your husband's firm employs. Why SHOULD he be shown preferential treatment when he hasn't REALLY earned it in any way?

I would also wager that he hasn't changed wholly so much as he has changed the ways he interacts with you, the ways he shares & how he chooses to present himself... which effectively keeps your distracted from that bigger picture. One of the biggest talents of an addict is their ability to adapt to the situation & spin, deflect & confuse those around them into believing things are different than they truly are. They can be very talented at holding it together long enough to convice us codies & sometimes themselves... so that by the time the next event comes along, it seems like something completely new instead of another string in that same chain of events.

Again, just my view from the "outside looking in" given without judgement.

FireSprite

I do want to add that it seems obvious that your son is also dealing with such an enormous amount of grief (& possibly guilt?) following the loss of his son & the resulting divorce from his wife. He HAD to feel his entire world dissolving under his feet & it becomes very easy to numb against these types of life events with alcohol & drugs. (Especially if you're already a casual user) While my AH had been slowly sliding into addiction, the unexpected death of his uncle (who was his father figure) accelerated that process immeasurably. While he has remained sober for nearly a year & a half at this point, the only time he felt truly tempted to relapse happened when one of his best friends died of cancer about 6 months after he sought therapy. Grief changes the way we perceive all other emotions, IMO. It's still not an excuse, but it gives us a little better understanding of his actions. I'm basing this opinion on this excerpt from your post in the Grief & Loss Forum:


Obviously, you can't force him into therapy, but it seems like addressing his grief & other emotions surrounding his son's death is the true core of where his addiction stems from. My heart breaks for him, because I can't imagine how I would react/be/feel if the tables were turned & this happened in my life. I sincerely hope he finds the help he needs to move forward & live a happier life. (((((BIG HUGE HUGS)))))

kthopkt

How old is your son? Wow, your son really has it easy. Why are you & your husband doing so much for him? I can tell you are truly concerned about your him but regardless of whether or not his alcohol & drug use has turned into a "problem," he needs to start figuring things out for himself. he has to be held accountable for his decisions without simply getting a pat on his back.

It is impossible to say whether or not he has a full blown addiction at this point but the fact that you are questioning him seems like a red flag to me. Addicts can be very
deceptive so he may be using without you knowing.

I think he needs to start picking up the pieces on his own....until that happens, he could continue to get worse.

MrsDragon

Thanks Firesprite. I meant to reply to you sooner but Ive been off here for a few days. Husband and I agree with what you are saying with the grief counseling. We are big believers in root cause for treating substance abuse issues, and in our sons case it traces back to the grief, and yes you are dead on: guilt, anger, disappointment….. What we hope is that he will go back to seeing the doctor he worked with originally. He was knowledgeable in substance abuse, but also grief and how to work through all the associated feelings and emotion. He was rather forced into it at that time because of the circumstances, but he continued of his own free will, and seemed to have a good connection with the Dr at that time. But it has been a while now, and I think he has an issue with reaching out and accepting help again.

I sometimes wish he was 10 years old again, and I could escort him to that doctor’s office and make sure he keeps a whole series of appointments. But I know he has to make this decision on his own, and hopefully in this process he will learn about himself.

Good thoughts/prayers going out to you and your AH.

MrsDragon

This brings up a question for me, and maybe I am missing something here that would be helpful for my understanding.

Our son has very rarely acted out against me or his father. I had mentioned one incident where he did something to hurt us emotionally trying to provoke in us a fear that he was a danger to himself, and also at the same time setting us up for potential embarrassment in front on a whole gathering of people including husbands work associates. We resolved the problem avoiding any embarrassment. After emotions cooled, we talked with our son who apologized, offered to cover any financial cost associated, and we discussed how that type of behavior was unacceptable, hurtful, and we wouldn’t accept being treated that way. He agreed, said it would not happen again. We all put it behind us with no tension in the relationship remaining after that. This was over three months ago. What more could he do except offer sincere apology and stop the behavior?

Forgiveness is usually granted to allow peace back into our own hearts and minds. It does not mean that we have to condone the action, or restore the relationship.

However, it also often means that we are able to find acceptance, understanding as to why something happened and often through this we can also restore the relationship. This is the case with our son.

I think I do understand what you mean by the ‘web of behavior’; we try to be alert to this, but how do you know what goes on outside of your presence at 3am or such? How do you hold someone accountable for what they do if it does not affect you, and is invisible to you?

An employer also cannot cross boundaries and truly judge what a person does as long as it does not come into the workplace, or affect their work.

So this is where we are stuck at the moment.

thislonelygirl

It might appear he has it under control because he is sober around yall or that he is not an addict but addicts are liars and they are great manipulators! They hide so they can keep it.
Dont be fooled and if its caused so many problems for him. ...that right there should tell you the truth. Actions not words I understand you dont want to rock the boat but the boat will be rocked by him more than likely until he gets help. I have seen ups and downs with my ah and when we had our ups and I thought he got it and was scared to rock the boat I finally realized. Could have said sonething ....it didnt matter because he rocked that boat himself. I didnt need too. It went right back to the way it was and it will do so until he is tired of the storm and wants to enjoy the ride....until he wants sobreity and stability.

allforcnm

I think that if he is serious about changing his behavior then his words have to be backed up by his actions. It sounds like that is what you are seeing, but you don’t know if you can trust it. I think maybe time is the only thing that can really prove it. He might be hiding the truth from you, he might not.

My husbands employer was great to him. They gave him over 3 months off work, and after he completed treatment they ended up making it paid time off. He approached them about taking time off work and confessed he had a drug problem, he didn’t actually get in any trouble at work. Now that he is back, they have not asked for him to be in any type of treatment, but they have asked him to take drug test by providing a hair sample through a specific doctor periodically for a year’s time. My husband is ok with it, because he knows it is a small price to pay for their support, keeping his job, and being treated again with respect, not having his decisions or his actions questioned because maybe he is on drugs’; that is not something he wanted to ever experience. Not everyone was informed of his situation, just some of the management.

FireSprite

I get what you're saying, definitely. I think this is another baffling part of the whole dysfunction of addiction... how as much as things are the same they are also very different. You also have the added complication of the employer/employee relationship which changes the dynamic between you all as well. The A in my life is my husband & previously was my father - but I haven't dealt with it in relation to my child so there's a certain amount of what you (general You) as parents go through that I may not fully appreciate, having not stood exactly in those shoes.

Obviously, no, you can't & wouldn't hold an employee responsible for their actions at 3am unless those actions became public & threatened the reputation of the company. I was simply pointing out that, as an employee your son should be held accountable to the same repercussions as any other employee. If another employee was reprimanded/terminated for the same behavior but your son is not, aren't you effectively treating him like a relative & not an employee at that point? If so, then shouldn't his "3am behavior" also be factored in at that point? You can't pick & choose when to treat him like family & when to treat him like an employee (at work) & call it fair to him or any other staff member. (Although, many small, family run businesses are often managed that way. It can sometimes be impossible to separate our personal & business lives when they are enmeshed that way. The company I work for has a HUGE issue with this.)

For me, when my husband was actively drinking I had to learn to detach. That's what kept me from wondering about the '3am behavior', spending my time trying to fix & diagnose problems I couldn't begin to understand because they weren't mine. But again, I don't know how a parent really detaches from their child, how many trials & errors you go through, when you feel like you've reached your breaking point. For me, at some point my desire to save myself & my DD far exceeded ANYTHING AH was going through, and that is what finally tapped into my inner strength & helped me focus on the bigger picture. I finally had to accept that I was not responsible for his bad decisions & decide how to disentangle myself from as many potential consequences as possible.... and when "more was revealed" (as they say) & I KNEW what I was dealing with I could face it without having spent countless hours spinning myself dizzy trying to box shadows that may or may not have been real. I could set MY boundaries FOR ME & know that I felt safe until they were crossed.

So, yes, in a sense all you CAN do is wait & see. And yes, there's a certain lack of trust that goes along with that until they prove again & again & again & again & again & AGAIN that they are capable of managing their addictive side. I also think there's a big difference between WORKING at fixing your issues & just apologizing & promising to stop the behavior. It seems to me, again my interpretation, that without some type of program or therapy that reaches them, most A's have difficulty achieving & maintaining long-term success at sobriety. When you add the grief component on top of all that, I can't even imagine how difficult it all becomes. He may have scared himself straight, he may relapse in a month or a year or a decade. All you can ever do is deal with today & let go of expecting any control over it.

Sorry for my long ramble!