clink

Hello,

I am totally new to this site, have thought about it for a long while. I know it may seem strange to join now that my husband has almost three years sobriety under his belt without any slips, but I am finding some things very hard. He uses a website (not this one) for his recovery and it has helped so much, BUT so many of his supports are woman. They live all over the world and he chats with them on the site and skypes and texts etc. He says they are just friends, and I believe that, but I just feel so uncomfortable with it. The meet about once a year, too, and it is always him with woman as there are not any men in the area. It feels like he gets to go on a holiday with other women. He says it isn't like that, and it is hard for him and important for face to face stuff for accountability, and I get that, but man!! It totally stresses me out and I get so jealous. I stuck with him through so much, wasn't I a support? I find this weird and so hard to cope since I cannot know any of them. He is finally willing to listen to how I feel, and he gets it, but he needs these people, they've helped so much. Just why do most have to be woman!! I am sensitive to secrecy, goes back to when he was drinking, so this secret stuff triggers stuff for me. I get it has to be private, but he is actually friends with some of these woman now and I can't know them, talk to them, or have any idea what they talk about. Am I crazy to feel this way? Anyway, sorry if this was too long, I have lots pent up as I have nobody other than my husband to talk to about this. He still hasn't told friends he doesn't drink cause he's an alcoholic so it makes it hard for me. Sorry, babbling again, I'll be more clear and concise next time, I promise

Tuffgirl

Welcome, clink.

First of all, you are not crazy nor babbling. I totally get what you are describing and I get that it is not ok with you. Yet because he is sober, you may not feel that you have a right to have your own boundaries. I remember that feeling of not wanting to do anything that may jeopardize early sobriety.

I understand that he has a support group that doesn't include you. I understand that given roughly 50% of the people in this world are of one gender or another, it is inevitable that some of your husband's new "friends" will be women. I have several male friends that I met through my recovery process, and we remain friends to this day.

The difference is, the secretive nature of it all. If these were just friends, I see no reason why he would not allow you to meet any of these women, or talk with them in any way. As an alcoholic, he has already ruined your trust by the lying that goes with addictions, and yet here he is, doing another thing that smacks of the very same behavior he had when he was drinking.

Have you talked with him - and I mean in a rational, logical way (taking all the emotion out of it)? Let him know you are feeling insecure with this and would feel more secure if you were able to be a part of the relationships he is having with these women.

Now, I will say I was on the receiving end of some irrational jealousy from my now ex-husband for having men in my recovery circle. I even met one for a beer once, and all hell broke loose. It was never my intention to be secretive. Honestly, I didn't think my husband gave a rats butt about my recovery. I was meeting a friend who was (is) supportive of me in Al-Anon, and I never saw it as a threat to my husband until he pointed it out.

Have you attended any Al-Anon meetings? It really helps...
Keep coming back,
~T

clink

Thank you. I do talk to him about it, lots! He gets tired of having to say they are no threat at all, and then just shuts down. Some of the ones that cause me the most worry or whatever don't even live anywhere near us! Totally different countries even. BUT they chat lots! One of them he has seen a few times and they've stayed together at places when they do their regional face to face...totally makes me uncomfy. I've asked if I could talk to anybody, or meet via skpe. He is thinking about it but I don't think he's even asked any of them if they'd be ok with it. I think he's worried about what I'll say or something. anyway, thanks for the support. I'll be back!

Tuffgirl

Well, but here's the thing, it is a threat if you feel that way. He's discounting your feelings by insisting its no threat. As I said, I didn't think I was behaving in a way that was threatening, because I know that my friendships with men were just that, and nothing more. But to have my husband say they were threatening meant I needed to find a way to honor his feelings without completely compromising myself. That's what people in relationships do. Now, I will say that my husband did divorce me, and part of the reason had to do with my "inappropriate behavior" with men, but that stems from his insecurities, not my continued behavior regardless of his feelings about it all.

It may be that you need to consider a counseling session or two to discuss this without being discounted. There are red flags all over the place here. You see them, he refuses to acknowledge this. It's not something to ignore. It's also fairly common for addicts to switch one compulsion for another. I am sure you know this already too.

The other option is to ignore it and try to have trust and faith in him that he is telling you the truth.

You may want to post this on the alcoholism forum and see what responses you get straight from the source. Maybe they have some ideas as to what is appropriate support in recovery and what simply shouldn't happen. I do know AA discourages opposite gender sponsoring.

clink

Thank you, I think maybe I will post this in there. I am going to talk to him again about being able to speak with a couple of these people. Apparently, one is going to visit in the summer and I'll get a chance to meet her...so nervous about this. He said he just connects with the women better. he is not a sports guys, cars guy, etc so he finds he often doesn't have things in common with them. I should just trust him, I'm certain these are my own insecurities, but it is hard. Thank you again.

Tuffgirl

I can see how he would think that - I know I turned more to the men early in Al-Anon as a way to try to understand male perspectives. It had nothing to do with how I felt about my husband, or me wanting attention from other men. As a matter of fact, it had everything to do with trying to understand my husband better!

Clink, having been on the side of having insecurities thrown at me as if I am to blame, I can say it wasn't easy to deal with, and I resented the lack of trust on his part, especially since he was the A, and he was the one who tended to lie about stuff. But from your perspective here, your husband is sharing what could be construed as intimate details of his life with other women, and I understand how that could make you uncomfortable. It's tricky because I can see both sides objectively.

Are there any other "red flags" going on, i.e. lack of intimacy between you and him, strange behaviors, etc?

clink

No, when I really think about it there aren't any other red flags- but I missed some in the beginning of his drinking that I guess I worry I'm missing something. He doesn't want me seeing his skype messages and stuff, but we are allowed our privacy. He says he doesn't even talk about us, our relationship, or me really to these people. I don't know how I feel about that....

Part of why I think he doesn't want to tell me when he talks them is because of how it affects me. He is open about who he talks to, he does talk to me about these woman, as much as he can without disclosing too much, I know that part is hard.

He has always got along better with women at work too, so maybe he just relates better to them. Our intimacy was really rocky for a while, but I also had my feelings shut down. I had a hard time with how selfish he was the first two years of recovery. We are actually talking so much more about it now, maybe he is more ready, and I am less angry. He is able to see how I feel and felt about things. Crazy thing is, we are closer now than we have been in a long while. Maybe this is why all this is driving me crazy so much more. My feelings for him aren't shut off anymore.

It is also coming up on the three year sober anniversary, so maybe I'm feeling some stuff around that too. I really appreciate your points of view. I was so worried I would just get comments like that isn't ok, you should be worried, leave him etc. This is helping. Thank you so much. And no, I haven't tried al-anon meetings. I have very little time as we have two young children as well. I may look into it though....

Tuffgirl

You may be onto something here! It could be you have been shut down for so long, and now are having your own emotions that are confusing and difficult. I know early recovery is just as bumpy as living with an active A. I know that 18 months after that first AA meeting, I still didn't trust my ex husband any further than I could pick him up and throw him! We divorced, as I mentioned, and I still have residual emotions about it all. Its by far the most emotionally gut-wrenching experience of my life, and I am scarred by it, that's for sure!

Consider some Al-Anon meetings. Read some books, and for ease, here's a thread already started by another poster with some great suggestions!

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...have-read.html

Maybe, for now, focus on your emotions and see if there are residual issues lurking that may be contributing to it all. You can't "change" him and how he is dealing with sobriety. And if it is working, and your relationship is better now than it has been in the past, making a big issue about this may not be in your best interest.

You sound like an intelligent woman who is aware of the signs of affairs, and if you aren't seeing any other signs, then it probably isn't happening. We women know when it is.

Titanic

Great stuff from Tuffgirl. Pick up the booklet Living With Sobriety at an Al-Anon meeting clink. Going onto the Alcoholism forum for answers is also a great idea. There will be many who will say he shouldn't be doing that with the women folk, and there are those who may tell you how they alleviated their spouse's or SO's concerns.

The best thing you can do for yourself and your worries are to go to Al-Anon meetings, whether the worries are justified or not.

All the best.

clink

Ya, funny, only men have responded to my post in the Alcoholism forum and they ALL say it is a bad idea. So I am torn and keep going between feeling ok then feeling nervous all over again. He won't stop using these people as supports though, so I have to find a way to live with it, I suppose. Thanks for the links, I will get that book. Until now, all my reading has been on alcoholism and addiction and the focus been on me learning about what HE is going through. Maybe I do need to sort my own stuff out now, too. Thanks all! Glad I joined this site!

Tuffgirl

I read the posts on the Alcoholism forum and have to say - you got some pretty good feedback straight from the source, all of which leans toward the inappropriate at best, cheating at worst sentiment. I am glad you posted this there, because it is really enlightening to talk directly to other recovering alcoholics.

I can see both sides, and can honestly say I don't know what to say. I think I'd be rather uncomfortable with it all myself. But that's coming from someone with trust issues! ; )

I hope you do some reading and processing your own emotions about this, so when you do make a decision, you'll be ready for whatever the outcome may be. Keep coming back!
~T

redatlanta

I would have a major problem with it.

What is the definition of support? How much talking? Texting as well? A meeting every year that you can't come to with women you can't meet?

Oh hell no.

I am not paranoid my AH has never given me any indication that unfaithfulness was in our relationship - in that department I have full trust - there is no way I would be ok.

I understand anonymity but this is extreme to use as a reason why you can't meet. They live in different countries......

In my opinion to be a spouse of an A in recovery - complete transparency is paramount - already went the route of deception during the active drinking, when does it stop? This makes you uncomfortable, you are NOT being ridiculous.

Totally understand that you want him sober, keep him sober and that's what keeps you from really putting your foot down. These friends, although supportive, don't keep him sober HE keeps him sober.

There just needs to be more transparency. If he wants to keep things as they are somehow you have got to be included - including that trip.

Please try al-anon, it has helped me immensely. Hugs and sorry you are going through this.

ShootingStar1

Clink, I too think Alanon and more posting on this forum will be very enlightening for you. Has anyone told you about the "stickies"? They are the threads at the top of the "Friends and Family of Alcoholics" page, and they are the best of the best about topics we all want to learn about as family of an alcoholic. Try to read as many of them as you can.

Alanon is about YOUR recovery from the trauma and chaos of living with an alcoholic. As spouses, we often find that we are making choices based on what we think is best for our alcoholic, or what they will tolerate, or what may give our families some peace. Often these decisions are not based on what is best for us and/or for our children. The alcoholic in his/her dysfunction gets top billing, and we tiptoe around trying to cajole them into health, and trying to not upset their very tipsy little applecart. We can carry that same perspective over into their recoveries.

To me, a marriage is between two people, in your case and mine, between one man and one woman. Not one man, three other unknown women, and then me. I imagine that you have stayed with your husband because you want to continue and save your marriage.

For me, I needed a total commitment from my AH that I was the only woman in his life. He got into porn, then into on-line chats, then texts, then videocams. He basically added the addiction of sex to his alcohol addiction, then became as uncontrolled and defensive and demanding that he have whatever he wanted whenever he wanted about porn as he was about alcohol.

I had a series of conversations with him being quite clear that he either chose me and only me, or he could have anyone else he wanted, but I would not continue to choose him. He continued his "I want what I want when I want it" and the "damn the torpedos, and d*amn you too, full speed ahead" attitude. When the fraud squad from my credit card called, questioning my AH's $500 wire transfer to one of these "women", that was the height of disrespect and I left for good within 2 hours and filed for divorce within the week.

My case is probably extreme, but there appear to be elements of disrespect and de-valuing you and your feelings in your husband's behavior.

You have the right to decide what you can live with, and set boundaries with him of what you will do in your marriage, and what you will not do. Alanon and Sober Recovery, and lots of reading about co-dependence and enabling will help you sort out for yourself what those boundaries should be.

It is okay, it is necessary, it is essential for you to figure out what YOU need and want, and to take the actions that lead you into the kind of life you want. You matter. Your feelings matter.

So, stick with us here, post often, and as time goes on, it will become clearer to you what you want in your marriage, and what your boundaries are and how to articulate them with your spouse.

ShootingStar1

redatlanta

I thought about your post a lot last night and here is the only other thing I would add to it - aside from the addiction your husband has we are all human and fallible.

I really have to watch my weight done best by not keeping bad food in my house. When Hubby buys candy or whatever I eat it.

Yes we all have to exercise self restraint but I also think it best not to put temptation in our paths. Too easy to make a stupid mistake.

clink

Thank you all. I hadn't read the last few posts. I had been doing much better with all of this, I showed my husband my post and he read the responses too. He has been being much less secretive, even offered to show me the skype messages. He is private, so that is part of it, but he still won't let me talk to any of them. I was doing really well with it all until last night, when he and one of them were skyping. He didn't try to hide it and offered for me to read it, I don't want to seem untrusting, like you said Tuffgirl, I've made things worse in the past doing that. But it just crushes me each time they chat. I hate feeling like the insecure wife that can't handle her husband having female friends. I think it is the fact that I don't know them. I told him it was them I don't trust, and he says if anything started heading that way from the woman's end, he'd deal with it. That he has zero desire on his end. But, like somebody said, why put yourself in a position to even create that? I think what hurts the most, is I don't feel heard about how I feel. He listens to a point, then just gets defensive and upset- likely cause I start to get too emotional. Thanks for all of your support, I think I will post again later once I have in my head what exactly I want to say.

Tuffgirl

Clink, I know this is hard for you. As I said before, I'd feel uncomfortable about it myself, especially now that you have shared your feelings and he seems to carry on regardless.

When my ex told me how much it bothered him that I would have male friends that I would be around alone, I stopped doing that, even though I knew the insecurities were his, not mine. And when I say alone, I mean in the remotest of the word...like a ride from the airport from a colleague. or meeting with an Al-Anon friend for an hour or so to talk specifically about recovery things. It was never, ever meant to hurt my ex, nor was it ever anything more than basic friendship, but when he shared how much it bothered him, I made a point of being far more aware of my own behavior.

But ya know - it did wreck our marriage in the end - the insecurities on his part and the lack of acknowledgement of my own by him. We all have them, ya know? And yet here he was - pointing out my stuff while refusing to acknowledge his own - it was true hypocrisy!

Your husband is getting something out of these relationships with other women, enough to justify and defend them. That is a red flag. Any chance you can get into counseling? A neutral third party may have more luck explaining your position about this than you can right now.