soberlicious

Well, to add another layer to this, you will often see the same type of demeaning and controlling behaviors in same sex relationships, so when it is sexism and when is it just plain old fashioned bad behavior hiding behind supposed "ingrained beliefs"?

dandylion

Dear soberlicious, I think maybe when the old-fashioned bad behavior is done because of the other person's gender (solely).

dandylion

velma929

Dandylion, I am well aware that sexism in still rampant...and sadly, some of it comes from women.

I am a seamstress (typical women's work, right?!) I worked in a store in which the clientele were all women (bridal store). You'd think by the customers' reaction that charging money for altering dresses was criminal. Why, their grandmothers sewed, and never charged anything! Anyone could do our work! Honestly, from the attitude towards women who work with their hands, they thought we should be seamstresses because we were to stupid to be ballast on a ship. The dresses were very inexpensive, and the price list for alterations were in the changing rooms, so it's not as if they should have been shocked at the price.

I now do the same work for a man who owns a tailor shop. A customer may look dismayed because his or her garment isn't worth fixing, but as a rule they don't act as if we ought to work for nothing.

In this day and age, when contracts mean very little, one ought to think very carefully if one wants to be a stay-at-home spouse. Someone who has spent years raising children and emotionally supporting the wage earner is at a disadvantage. I don't know how many judges believe in spousal support in divorces, and I don't know a whole lot of wage-earners who could provide a meaningful amount if it was ordered, anyway.

soberlicious

Dear dandylion, how would one ever determine that? Some men put women down, but upon further examination you will find that they demean and put down other men too, that may be lower on the economic/social scale than them. In other words, they are just ass*oles. To me, much of the behavior described by the OP could be accurately defined as misogyny.

Sexism is simply pervasive stereotypes based on gender, positive or negative. We all have them, even when we don't realize it.

DesertEyes

If I may toss in my .02 worth

First, my background so you can see where my personal context comes from.

I spent half my professional life as a photographer, married to a retired super model. ( the other half of my professional life is not germaine to this discussion ) I have years of schooling in the science of creating images that communicate messages to the viewer. I helped raise a daughter, and hosted two of her school friends thru their teenage years. ( long story, abusive parents, we ended up as the foster parents ) When those three grew up and moved out my wife took in some young women who were just starting their modeling career and mentored them.

Having heard the women in my household describe to me the world they live in. Realizing that as a man I will _never_ be able to experience even a fraction of what they live through, I am truly horrified at what a disgusting environment they are faced with.

My home was filled with women growing up in a world controlled by men. At work I colaborated with extremely actractive people, of all genders, who made a living by manipulating apperances instead of substance.

There was, and still are, a great many individuals and companies struggling hard against the tides of ignorance. A few years ago the "Dove" company made a series of wonderful videos against the whole marketing industry. You can still find them on YouTube.

My experience is that there are _two_ separate issues that mix into an explosive result. On one extreme I know people, of all genders, who are truly blinded by their upbringing and culture. They really and truly believe that an individual's outward appearance determines their internal worth. I don't understand them, and I am saddened that they live in such a world.

At the other extreme there are people, of all genders, that I believe are just plain evil. They use whatever "ism" is convenient (sexism, racism, ageism, etc. ) as a weapon to use against all other human beings in reach. They are _not_ sexist, they are just evil and sexism is this week's bludgeon.

Everybody else is somewhere in the middle. I have been lucky in that I am a rather short fellow, and spent half my life working with women who were _much_ taller than me, _much_ more talented as actresses, managers, business owners, etc. Considering the odds against them they are clearly much smarter than me to have survived and succeeded.

Still, I am a guy, and I know that there _has_ to be cultural poison lurking around in my mind. I am aware of that and I consciously remain vigilant against it. Based on the feedback I have received from co-workers, and most importantly my daughter, I think I've done pretty good. For a guy.

My experience is that evil is truly gender-blind. Having lived in the L.A. modeling scene, and now retired in Vegas, I am surrounded by much more than just _two_ genders. I have seen horrible evil in all different kinds of people, directed against anyone and everyone. What I do in my life is oppose that evil, whenever I see it, regardless of the source. male, female or whatever other gender, if it's evil it's wrong. The particular "ism" is just a convenient classification, a way of categorizing and deconstructing the behavior in order to build a more comprehensive response.

I don't believe it's the "ism" that is the problem. I believe it's just a label. I believe it's the _individual_ who is harming others that is the problem.

Ok, I'm getting off my soapbox now. Being the father of wonderful young lady, and grand-father to two young women, and now another generation coming up, makes me a bit sensitive to the subject.

Mike

kudzujean

Thanks for sharing. I've heard before that many people think altering clothes--"women's work" --isn't worth anything.

Totally agree with you about a stay-at-home spouse!

dandylion

Dear soberlicious, I agree with you that we can't always tell. I also agree that we all have our prejudices--even when we aren't aware.

dandylion

dandylion

Dear Desert Eyes, thank you for your interesting and thought-provoking post! Thanks, also, for your candor. So much of it resonates with me.

I have heard that the modeling world is filled with exploitation of the women (and male models). Isn't it amazing that it is considered such a glamorous field!?

As humans, I think it is impossible to be prejudice free. Perhaps the best we can do is to be aware of this and strive to be willing to challenge our own beliefs and always treat others with dignity.

sincerely, dandylion

snoopy87

Thos is a really good topic. I've made some poor relationship choices in the past which forced me to do some soul-searching and eventually leave unhealthy circumstances. I pay very close attention to how a man speaks of his mother, treats his sister, treats waitstaff, and how he handles the word no. I run for the hills if I feel uneasy. I also have a hard time with women who look at men as a meal ticket instead of getting out there and being self-sufficient. At the workplace, there have been times I've caught male co-workers staring at my chest and I looked right at them and said, "Do I have something on my shirt because you keep looking there?" The key for me is addressing it on the spot and then staying far away from these people whenever possible. I've only had to go to Human Resources once, but it's still one time too many. Unfortunately, I can't depend on other people doing the right thing so I try to do right for myself. I don't always do it gracefully but I try. I also have to say I am grateful for the male friends who are in my life today who are respectful, kind, and funny.

dandylion

Wow, Snoopy---good point. I, also, keep a hawk-eye for how people treat their loved ones and waitstaff---that gives a world of information!!!

dandylion

BlueSkies1

You're definitely onto something Lillamy...what I left out was that he was doing those behaviors relating to sex itself. I didn't say that outright before because I am trying to stay within the community guidelines...it appears that talking about sex in particular is rather off limits.

Braggart! Just because we can't do that...LOL

This is interesting, gettingby. My situation was a little different. X was very successful. If anything, he was codie taking care of me, with many giving behaviors, the problem was that it seemed he did the giving behaviors as a way to balance his "bad" behaviors. He even asked me once if the "balance" between what he gave, and what I said was unacceptable, didn't the "whole person" balance out the bad? It was a type of bargaining to try to continue unacceptable behaviors.
I think people shine a bright light on our mistakes when they feel badly about themselves, and want to level the playing field. I think this is not alcoholic behavior necessarily; I think we all do it.

BlueSkies1

You've pointed out the greed and selfishness that runs our economy and too much of our society. Using people. Yes, that's the problem, whatever gender, whatever situation.
You're obviously very enlightened between your career and wanting to protect the women you love!

Florence

Sexism, like all the other bad "isms," is part of our society and it manifests in different ways and in different relationships. I consider myself a feminist. My AH is not sexist -- I wouldn't be with someone who didn't believe I was worthy of the same achievements and rights that are afforded to men. Personally, some relationship strife could be avoided if women chose not to sleep with or date or marry sexist men. I also believe that women should have independent means of taking care of herself and her family. We all know that a wedding ring isn't a guarantee.

I do think that sexism was a factor in our relationship -- in me. I internalized the belief that the brunt of all relationship work was mine and that men are sometimes incapable of handling relationship issues with maturity and fairness. As my AH's disease progressed, I tried to prop everything up despite all the signs, and believed that our problems were that I wasn't trying enough and wasn't alluring/attractive enough.

Now I know differently, but these beliefs kept me mired in a bad situation much longer than necessary.

BlueSkies1

Here's a situation I would like to ponder with others regarding "sexism".

I have a friend that her husband appears to have suffered a complete meltdown with his identity. He has reached a point in his life where he is older, knows that he is no longer a young stallion, and is acting out ridiculously, sexually, alcoholically, and otherwise.
I am thinking about how with some men, their sexuality appears to be tied too tightly to their identity. He has destroyed his marriage, and is destroying himself, his self-worth, his relations with his family, and onward.
A similar situation happened in my marriage, similar but different too. It was AS IF I was asking him to give up part of his identity as a male, as a man, to curb certain behaviors. He fought it MORE than he fought the argument of his alcoholism, which he more or less admitted.
This is a man who truly believes in equality and in crushing the ways in which there is inequality in the world. Yet when it came to his own identity and individualism...he wanted to draw outside the box. This was where I was completely miffed.

MycoolFitz

quite a topic, people i know who i assume think I am gay because I am a guy who cares about people and I like to dress Like i meant to. Well the heck with them. I need to go out today for stuff and am wearing jeans and sweathirt, etc, and will wear a tuff face. I just do not care anymore. I mean I do but not about peoples assumptions.

pixilation

So many of these posts i agree with, an experienced with Stbxah. It's been weird, and a learning experience, to NOT experience the stuff with my current friend. Heck, he's been helping me break free of all the negative ideas about myself that x ingrained in my mind.

fluffyflea

It doesn,t change and it,s a male thing definitely.

soberlicious

Sexism : generalizations and stereotypes based on gender.

TakingCharge999

Warning: I might ramble.


Men like DesertEyes give me hope. I only know a handful of men that respect themselves enough to be able to respect everyone ... other men, women, kids, pets. I wish there were more men like this - the world needs them.

At work, I decided to dress Nun Style. I know men would see my butt if I didn't bring a long jacket to cover up. I also noticed a coworker eyeing my boobs twice-very uncomfortable but I can only dress conservatively and hope for the best. I am thinking, working with other Mexicans and Indians, the atmosphere could be MUCH worse, for being only a handful of females. At least I can study and walk alone and drive and work, in many other countries this is not even allowed...

I went to a fashion catwalk backstage and the organizers and some designer "assistants" treated all the models, male and female, and general assistants (I was in that role) VERY badly. I was stunned at the rudeness shown to me by some people there. Sure it is very stressful but no amount of stress justifies disrespect. I am studying fashion and I dislike these aspects of the industry. I also recall being around some artists and maybe they were not sexist but they were condescending to people outside their "artistic world".

I don't know. I dislike anyone who feels superior. And often, the most prepared and smart people are the nicest. I guess it goes with their education.

Talking about younger men- often I have seen, they see gender equality as an excuse not to work, and many get the car, the house and then leave the woman. Last ex - he has a low wage job and his English sucks. I got 5 years of work exp. and studied engineering in a very recognized University, I have studied English all my life... well he wanted me to stop working and to teach HIM English so he could 'advance' professionally. Sheesh (what was I thinking?)

About the "it starts in the cradle", just yesterday I read a book about children and their development. It said that the mother is the most important figure at least until the baby is 3 years old, but that the father figure affects the baby indirectly as in how the mother feels - if she feels secure, loved and cherished, the baby will notice- and the baby will also notice is the mother is stressed, anxious, afraid, etc. Maybe it is my personal history due not having dad close in most of my life, but I feel strongly about the need for fathers to take care of their children and understand how important they are emotionally, not only as bread winners. I have heard often about a father "helping out mom with the baby" as if it was not theirs as well.

I also see slow change and I am all for starting a new chapter in history where there is more respect for life in general, for everyone.

MycoolFitz

I guess if we generalize we can miss things. I am a male but mostly the best person I can be.