Why do so many people think/assume
Belgian Sheepdog Adictee
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: In Today
Posts: 6,101
My sister and I decided MANY years ago now.
That considering how dysfunctional our family was and the family of friends of ours
were and are, that we had a really educational upbringing:
On how NOT to be!!!
99.9999% of the adults in our lives growing and up and then in our own adulthood,
gave us EXCELLENT messages on how not to be.
We didn't have to figure them out on why they did or didn't do something, we just
chose not to be that way.
The 12 Steps are a wonderful way to live one's life, no matter if the
person is an A or not, a codie or not, etc. And if one has a problem with the spiritual
aspect of them, then it wouldn't hurt that person to delve into Buddhism and use
that to live their life.
I don't waste my time and energy trying to figure folks out that are doing 'weird'
things in their life, and I do not have to 'listen' to their counsel either. I prefer to
have folks in my life that walk the way they talk. Those are my 'guides', my
'mentors', etc and have been for many years now.
J M H O
Love and hugs,
That considering how dysfunctional our family was and the family of friends of ours
were and are, that we had a really educational upbringing:
On how NOT to be!!!
99.9999% of the adults in our lives growing and up and then in our own adulthood,
gave us EXCELLENT messages on how not to be.
We didn't have to figure them out on why they did or didn't do something, we just
chose not to be that way.
The 12 Steps are a wonderful way to live one's life, no matter if the
person is an A or not, a codie or not, etc. And if one has a problem with the spiritual
aspect of them, then it wouldn't hurt that person to delve into Buddhism and use
that to live their life.
I don't waste my time and energy trying to figure folks out that are doing 'weird'
things in their life, and I do not have to 'listen' to their counsel either. I prefer to
have folks in my life that walk the way they talk. Those are my 'guides', my
'mentors', etc and have been for many years now.
J M H O
Love and hugs,
Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,754
Your Mom probably did the best she could at the time.
Something held her back, but she finally left to go try and find her happiness.
Setting a boundry around drinking, as many of us do, is , actually is an ultimatum with a prettier name, boundries. ie, if you drink you can not live here .
Something held her back, but she finally left to go try and find her happiness.
Setting a boundry around drinking, as many of us do, is , actually is an ultimatum with a prettier name, boundries. ie, if you drink you can not live here .
Today is a New Day
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,766
Originally Posted by onlythetruth 
I actually think ultimatums work pretty well if they are sincere, meaning that the giver of the ultimatum is prepared to follow through.
If you tell someone you'll leave them if they don't quit drinking, and you mean it, one of two things will happen: the person will quit drinking, OR they will not, and you will no longer be in a relationship with them.
Of course, if you tell someone you'll leave them if they don't quit drinking, but you don't mean it, then nothing will change....but that isn't an ultimatum at all, it's really nothing but an idle threat.
If you tell someone you'll leave them if they don't quit drinking, and you mean it, one of two things will happen: the person will quit drinking, OR they will not, and you will no longer be in a relationship with them.
Of course, if you tell someone you'll leave them if they don't quit drinking, but you don't mean it, then nothing will change....but that isn't an ultimatum at all, it's really nothing but an idle threat.
I have a book about gaslighting that really helped me. The most notable thing in that book, though, was the statement - "In order to change the relationship, you have to be willing to leave it."
It goes on about how you might not have to leave, but that if you're not willing to leave then you won't have the conviction to stand by the necessary boundaries to support the necessary healthy changes.
So many people seem to think that empty ultimatums are enough, and I'll admit I used to be one of them, but I've learned that nobody believes you unless you show you're willing to back it up.
I know someone who had an ex who would send abusive, harassing text messages to him when it was his turn for custody of their daughter. She'd send these messages around certain parts of the day, and also right after he picked their daughter up from school. He couldn't block her, in case it was information related to their daughter, so he'd reply back to stop harassing him.
That worked for a few weeks, and then it didn't, so he started threatening to report her to the police.
That worked for a few weeks, and then it didn't, so he started emailing her lawyer that he'd report her conduct to the police.
That worked for a few weeks, and then it didn't, so he reported her to the police and took her to court for harassment by communication.
That worked.
Iceberg Ahead!
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Out at Sea
Posts: 1,177
Ultimatums are common and can be effective in significant areas of life (parenting, employment, relationships). So that's where I think the idea comes from. The people suggesting ultimatums have seen them work.
Next, I think they make the assumption that the person who would give the ultimatum, by virtue of their relationship to the other person, has sufficient degree of control over that other person or some tool effective with that person. The parent can keep some toy or reward from the child. The boss can fire the employee. The spouse or SO can withhold or walk out. Or so they assume. They don't stop to think of all the other considerations that could affect the person giving the ultimatum. The spouse or SO is emotionally invested in the other person. The boss may need the talents of that particular employee. The parent may have their own issues with discipline or a myriad of other considerations.
Then, they assume that the person receiving the simple ultimatum logically would understand and submit to the control or tool wielded by the person who gave the ultimatum. With As, there's nothing that logical. Also, that control or tool usually pales in comparison to the compulsion to drink or use. The As also have a toolbox of their own full of cunning techniques, swords, shields, manipulation and deceit. The average Joe on the street doesn't get the power and tentacles of the disease.
And you know what they say happens when one assumes!
Next, I think they make the assumption that the person who would give the ultimatum, by virtue of their relationship to the other person, has sufficient degree of control over that other person or some tool effective with that person. The parent can keep some toy or reward from the child. The boss can fire the employee. The spouse or SO can withhold or walk out. Or so they assume. They don't stop to think of all the other considerations that could affect the person giving the ultimatum. The spouse or SO is emotionally invested in the other person. The boss may need the talents of that particular employee. The parent may have their own issues with discipline or a myriad of other considerations.
Then, they assume that the person receiving the simple ultimatum logically would understand and submit to the control or tool wielded by the person who gave the ultimatum. With As, there's nothing that logical. Also, that control or tool usually pales in comparison to the compulsion to drink or use. The As also have a toolbox of their own full of cunning techniques, swords, shields, manipulation and deceit. The average Joe on the street doesn't get the power and tentacles of the disease.
And you know what they say happens when one assumes!
Guest
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,826
Ultimatums don,t work,you are right Choublak. They are pointless if the person giving them is not ready to carry it out. It,s a ineffective form of control.
Originally Posted by choublak
that giving an ultimatum will scare someone into quitting drinking? Back when my boyfriend was drinking, a lot of people would tell me, "tell him if he doesn't quit drinking you will leave", the assumption of course being that if I told him that, he would quit drinking and so I wouldn't have to leave. Even my own mother gave me that advice. She herself tried that repeatedly with my dad as he was cheating on her. It never worked though; instead it turned into a merry-go-round. I think my mom has used that ultimatum tactic in raising me, to try to get me to do things she wanted. But a lot of it was just to scare me into doing what I was told. Anyway, why do people seem to think that's effective unless/until they deal with an A, or a narcissist, or a mentally sick person?
1000 Post Club
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 2,284
Threats do not work. My family member who is a chronic alcoholic/addict was on a strict drug testing probation. It was clear that one positive drug test would be a ticket to jail. He ended up showing up to a status hearing at the courthouse intoxicated and high. The Judge was angry that the officers had not noticed him staggering about the hallways. Off to jail he went.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl
Posts: 4
My ultimatum didn't work and my divorce was just finalized this past week. I was shocked that he chose alcohol over me and his daughter. I'm still shocked. I always thought that when push came to shove he'd own up instead of dying alone. Shocked
Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 78
Cloublak, I've always hated ultimatums as well. At least in personal relationships, I find them to be offensively controlling. I've been on the receiving end before, toward the end of an emotionally abusive relationship. Using such threats to transform someone into your puppet is just plain bullying.
However, I do see how ultimatums have their place, when used appropriately. Of course a boss can say "Stop turning up late, or you're fired." Yup, that's totally fair enough.
But when dealing with someone who you love and who you know is sick, it's probably more effective to take the "boundaries" approach. And yes, there is a difference! YOU, Choublak, have certain behaviours that you can't tolerate anymore. Rather than an IF you do this, THEN I'll do that scenario. You simply proclaim for yourself that you don't want a drunk messing up your life anymore, and that's all...
Anyway, my point is, just from your posts, I've gathered that it's not necessarily the idea of ultimatums that are bugging you. Perhaps it is more about your mother's hypocrisy instead? She's giving you the same terrible advice that she didn't even take herself...
I understand that frustration, but just try to keep it focused where it belongs. Mom is just trying to help, even if it seems feeble at the moment. But she's not the one who is really jerking you around! See what I mean?
However, I do see how ultimatums have their place, when used appropriately. Of course a boss can say "Stop turning up late, or you're fired." Yup, that's totally fair enough.
But when dealing with someone who you love and who you know is sick, it's probably more effective to take the "boundaries" approach. And yes, there is a difference! YOU, Choublak, have certain behaviours that you can't tolerate anymore. Rather than an IF you do this, THEN I'll do that scenario. You simply proclaim for yourself that you don't want a drunk messing up your life anymore, and that's all...
Anyway, my point is, just from your posts, I've gathered that it's not necessarily the idea of ultimatums that are bugging you. Perhaps it is more about your mother's hypocrisy instead? She's giving you the same terrible advice that she didn't even take herself...
I understand that frustration, but just try to keep it focused where it belongs. Mom is just trying to help, even if it seems feeble at the moment. But she's not the one who is really jerking you around! See what I mean?
Member of SMART Recovery
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,722
Originally Posted by scotchwidow
My ultimatum didn't work and my divorce was just finalized this past week. I was shocked that he chose alcohol over me and his daughter. I'm still shocked. I always thought that when push came to shove he'd own up instead of dying alone. Shocked
You can define it by the behavior of the other person, as in "my goal in telling my husband to quit drinking or I'll leave, is to get him to quit drinking".
Or you can define it by the end result on YOUR LIFE, as in "my goal in telling my husband to quit drinking or I'll leave, is to stop being married to an alcoholic".
If you define your goal the first way, then I can see how you'd view your ultimatum as a failure. But, defined the second way, it was a success.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,443
It also occurs to me that advice is often based on experience. My advice today would be based off the last 3weeks of my marriage and last two+ years of recovery work - not the 15 years I spent with my husband. I can totally see how I would look like a hypocrite. We learn as we go and our advice is based on what we did right, not on what we did wrong.
Advice is a hard thing. Ive kind of sworn off it myself but as a parent that would be a very hard thing to do. Doesn't make our advice right or mean that anyone has to take it.
Advice is a hard thing. Ive kind of sworn off it myself but as a parent that would be a very hard thing to do. Doesn't make our advice right or mean that anyone has to take it.
Iceberg Ahead!
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Out at Sea
Posts: 1,177
In Al-Anon, we are often reminded to check our motives.
I agree with cli that boundaries are WAY better than ultimatums!
Boundaries keep the focus on us - rather than on our "insane" attempts to figure out and fix the alcoholic, the alcoholic behavior or the progressive disease (or even the A's sober recovery process), which is futile. Boundaries help us define who we are and want to be. Boundaries keep us from frittering or squandering away our energy, resources and time. Boundaries keep us in recovery rather than reactive mode. They are anchors in the anarchy of alcoholism.
I agree with cli that boundaries are WAY better than ultimatums!
Boundaries keep the focus on us - rather than on our "insane" attempts to figure out and fix the alcoholic, the alcoholic behavior or the progressive disease (or even the A's sober recovery process), which is futile. Boundaries help us define who we are and want to be. Boundaries keep us from frittering or squandering away our energy, resources and time. Boundaries keep us in recovery rather than reactive mode. They are anchors in the anarchy of alcoholism.
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