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I have no words.....

Old 10-25-2012, 04:53 PM
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I have no words.....

UGH, marriage counseling did NOT go well again today. Of course, I expected nothing less from him. He did say a few nice things about me. He said I was gorgeous and that it would be quite easy for me to replace him.

He was despondent, complained about his loneliness, made himself to be the victim and the therapist did a good job of calling him out on his selfish attitudes, for the most part.

The therapist asked him to write down some changes that he'd like to see me make(I already presented them both with a letter today explaining what I want) and AH only said that he wants SEX. That's it. That's what makes a marriage to him, just sex. He thinks I need to make no other changes than to get busy with him. My response was that I know he's still drinking ( he pretty much went off about how he's never going to AA ever again and they can suck his b*lls because they're all depressed pathetic losers) and that I don't trust him with my emotions, etc. I said, "How am I supposed to want sex with someone who I don't trust and who isn't taking steps to even try to be trustworthy?" "Someone who claims I'm going to report him as a rapist?" I told them(AH and therapist) that the only way I'd be willing to have sex is for us to start developing emotional intimacy and for that to happen, AH is going to have to compromise.

He complained that I have him pinned up against the wall(actually, he said that he's set into the wall so far because of MY issues with his drinking). That he still can control his drinking, even though he admitted that he doesn't want to drink anymore. He said that since I'm not willing to live with him while he's drinking, then he's screwed just like all the men in America whose wives control their lives.

I mean, is it me? Should I just put myself out there and have sex with him just to get him to shut up already? Man, he went on and on about how hot I am and how he wants me so badly. Well, I get that, but what does he do to make himself appealing to me. He seems to think that a wedding ring means you are obligated to perform sexually for your spouse no matter what. UGH! Just ridiculous. The therapist pretty much told him that if AH won't start compromising and seeing that marriage is a 2 way street, then the counseling isn't going to work. AH pretty much got pissed off but agreed to work on writing a list of the things I need to change. I have to say I'm actually looking forward to this list because it will help me with my step 4 work that I'm starting now!! YAY, bring on the pain, I've been preparing myself for this one!
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Old 10-25-2012, 05:09 PM
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So...his definition of a compromise is writing out a list of things YOU need to change? How does he not fail marriage counseling immediately?

Even if I thought giving in to his sexual demands had the SLIGHTEST chance of getting him to shut up, all it would do is rack up a demented victory in his booze-addled brain. You are worth more than that; you know you are!
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Old 10-25-2012, 05:19 PM
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So, all he wants is sex to prove ownership? Is that what I am hearing, and then he will also make a list of all your "other faults"?

Welcome to the stepford wife movie!!!!!!

Sorry for being blunt
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Old 10-25-2012, 05:28 PM
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One consequence of drinking is you don't get to have sex with your wife. She thinks you are gross or she doesn't feel close to you.

Sleeping with him when you don't want to would be enabling him.

I remember my alkie whining about how he wasn't getting enough sex. Oh boo-hoo.

He can fix this though: he can get sober and rebuild the relationship he damaged. And then maybe his wife will want sex with him again.
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Old 10-25-2012, 05:37 PM
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Dear LIZ, I feel confused about your last statement. Maybe you could clarify--if you don't mind.

How is his list of things he wants you to change going to help you with your alanon 4th step work??? It sounds as if you are relishing the advent of a large battle---Really??

sincerely, dandylion
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Old 10-25-2012, 06:02 PM
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My ex once said to me that he would put up with all the abuse that he put me through, if I did this to him, if I would have SEX with him !!!!!!

You heard that right !!!!!!

This is how they think. Sex makes everything better. It was not a typographical error.
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Old 10-25-2012, 06:05 PM
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Step 4: "Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves."

I'm not sure how this applies to your current counseling session.

Liz, your husband continues to hold you hostage, now he is revisiting the sex.

It's dirty pool, manipulation, it's totally disrespectful and he continually positions himself to make you the bad guy. No one is entitled to your intimacy, it is earned.

How you could ever attempt step 4 after this counseling meeting and the chaos that continues , if it were me, in this situation , I would feel it impossible.

The stacked resentments between the two of you is heartbreaking.

You matter, you are important, you do not deserve this intense malicious disrespect.

Its not just the drinking, it's the willingness to open up to some kind of program for healing, he has made it clear that , that is not in the cards, so it's the same ole same ole.
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Old 10-25-2012, 06:06 PM
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It is so seriously difficult for a woman to have sex with someone who doesn't meet her emotional needs, and make her feel valued as a person. It's sad but men will never understand that. We are wired so differently in that regard. I went through the same thing with a couple of my exes. The worse the relationship seemed to get, the less attracted I would feel to them and that was another thing they would feel resentful about.
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Old 10-25-2012, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by amy55 View Post
My ex once said to me that he would put up with all the abuse that he put me through, if I did this to him, if I would have SEX with him !!!!!!

You heard that right !!!!!!

This is how they think. Sex makes everything better. It was not a typographical error.

Sex is also a weapon, used for power. It's a way of being controlled, of saying you are stronger than me.
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Old 10-25-2012, 06:10 PM
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Don't even get me started with this thread. LOL! I've already joined by posting a single line.
Yes Liz, that's who he is. He doesn't ask for you to change anything but sex because simply, you are good enough already at vacuuming, etc., secondly, he doesn't want to think PAST sex. Booze and sex, hey, whomever said that there was more to life?
He really is a man of simple desires. lol Take that as a good thing, or a bad one. I mean really...you can have the easy life. All you have to do is enjoy the comfort of his good income, go on those trips, and be as busy as a bee with your son, church, and whatever else floats your boat.
I won't ask...but sincerely...I can't imagine this man being any good at sex anyway. I have never met the man, but I feel comfortable saying that since he doesn't understand the tension of intimacy, he's all about going through the motions.
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Old 10-25-2012, 06:48 PM
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It's still the same power struggle, it's just costing you $100/hr. now.
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Old 10-25-2012, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by dandylion View Post
Dear LIZ, I feel confused about your last statement. Maybe you could clarify--if you don't mind.

How is his list of things he wants you to change going to help you with your alanon 4th step work??? It sounds as if you are relishing the advent of a large battle---Really??

sincerely, dandylion
Well, I guess I see it as an opportunity to 'see the things about myself that I don't see for myself'. If he points out my personality, which right now he claims I have none, LOL, then I have a chance to work on those faults. It has nothing to do with doing battle. I'm looking forward to getting into things deep for myself. I figure the sooner I get to business on this stuff, the sooner I can be healthier and more emotionally sound.
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Old 10-25-2012, 07:30 PM
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OH, and I wanted to add something else too. A year ago while on his work trip we talked about how I needed to heal from the fallout of being molested when I was 7 and raped when I was 19. I was explaining how I wanted to start working on myself and I wanted his support. He said, "If we need to be celibate until the day I die, then that's what we'll do so that you can take your time getting healthy." Today, I mentioned this event and he got really angry and said that, "I made a mistake back then. I did not mean that. I want SEX! I take my statement back."

REALLY? Wow. That's all I had at that point, was wow. I think my mouth hit the floor and so did the marriage counselor's.
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Old 10-25-2012, 07:34 PM
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I'm shocked your therapist continues the couples counseling without insisting on some personal counseling or recovery program for your ah. Does the counselor think/know he is an alcoholic.

It might also be worth your time to do some soul searching to figure out what you are getting out of this. What keeps you coming back to this spot? It is something. I'm not saying I know what that is because I don't.
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Old 10-25-2012, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by lizatola View Post
Well, I guess I see it as an opportunity to 'see the things about myself that I don't see for myself'. If he points out my personality, which right now he claims I have none, LOL, then I have a chance to work on those faults. It has nothing to do with doing battle. I'm looking forward to getting into things deep for myself. I figure the sooner I get to business on this stuff, the sooner I can be healthier and more emotionally sound.
LIZ, I am sure that some longtimers, here, can correct me if I am mistaken---but this seems to fly in the face of the intent and spirit of the 4th step. Am I picking up a very passive-aggressive tone in your intent? (I am just saying how it "feels" as I read it).

dandylion
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Old 10-25-2012, 07:51 PM
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OK I've got to say it.

There are two sides here, and we're hearing - one.

How is this helpful? Unless Liz is going to leave him - how is it helpful to continually trash this man based on one side of the conversation?

Yes, sex IS important in a marriage and important to a man. HELLO. The only flaw he sees in you is that he wants to more close with you sexually. And you're complaining? There is no laundry list coming from him of all your terrible flaws. Just one . . . If there were a list, we'd be complaining about that, too.

I'm not trying to be rough here, but I thought this board is here to help people grow. I don't see this conversation as helpful. I agree with Dandylion.

To all of us, they have their stuff but SO DO WE. What is yours, Liz????? I say that with kindness. Do you want to talk about your faults and flaws? If you don't have any, and all the marital problems are because of him, I sincerely suggest you leave!
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Old 10-25-2012, 08:11 PM
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I think this board is to help people cope with a rough situation first of all. We all grow at our own pace. For me, this is the only place where I can tell the truth about my relationship without being ashamed. It might sound like trash talk, but it's really a way of dealing with all the negativity. Shouldn't this be a safe place for us to honestly talk about how we feel with our alcoholic?

As for intimacy, when I don't feel like it, I don't feel like it and I will never understand why anyone would want sex with a partner who doesn't want it.
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Old 10-25-2012, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by lizatola View Post
OH, and I wanted to add something else too. A year ago while on his work trip we talked about how I needed to heal from the fallout of being molested when I was 7 and raped when I was 19. I was explaining how I wanted to start working on myself and I wanted his support. He said, "If we need to be celibate until the day I die, then that's what we'll do so that you can take your time getting healthy." Today, I mentioned this event and he got really angry and said that, "I made a mistake back then. I did not mean that. I want SEX! I take my statement back."

REALLY? Wow. That's all I had at that point, was wow. I think my mouth hit the floor and so did the marriage counselor's.
I may be way out of line here and sincerely apologize if I am. Please please please understand that I don't want to offend anyone! It would seem to me that to have sex with someone that guilts and pushes you into having sex with them, especially when you are repulsed by them and don't trust them, would feel to me like sexual abuse. I've been pressured in the past and it made me feel very dirty and very betrayed.

I sincerely do not want to upset anyone with my own experience.
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Old 10-25-2012, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by dandylion View Post
LIZ, I am sure that some longtimers, here, can correct me if I am mistaken---but this seems to fly in the face of the intent and spirit of the 4th step. Am I picking up a very passive-aggressive tone in your intent? (I am just saying how it "feels" as I read it).

dandylion
No, absolutely not. I thought step 4 was about taking personal inventory. I guess I thought it would be good to hear from him what my shortcomings are so I can add them to the list. I guess that's not appropriate??? Honestly, I haven't actually started doing any work on this step yet nor have I done the full readings in my Paths to Recovery book so I guess my perspective is off?

I am in no way looking at this as passive aggressive. I was serious and I felt I could learn something about myself by hearing what he has to say.

As to what Wishing Well said: she's absolutely right but I did not say that I am fault free, he said that. I have MANY faults, my Ah just won't admit to them and won't talk about them. He says I'm perfect, and that's a load of bullish*t and he knows it. He claims he's a bad seed, he's the bad one, he told the therapist that he will never have a positive bone in his body nor does he want to, etc but when I point out my own shortcomings he won't even agree to them. It's like he's afraid to admit that I don't meet the expectations he set for me and I don't know why. The therapist called him out on a few things he complained about with me and then AH denied them and minimized them. Hence the title to my thread, I'm literally speechless and feel like I'm constantly caught in some sort of alter world that he's trying to create. I even had to bring up some of my faults and he just sat there trying hard to NOT agree. I swear it's like he has to be at odds with the therapist, with me, his boss, whomever just because he enjoys it. Does that make sense?

The therapist is being very patient with him and I know that Thumper said above that she's surprised that the guy wouldn't have AH go to therapy or something. Yeah, that annoys me too, but I feel that the counseling will help me learn more about the part I'm playing here so that I can grow and put some changes into place.

The counselor used the words 'substance abuse problem' and AH took it personally and took offense to it so the counselor had to change his wording to please my AH. He didn't come right out and tell AH that he had a problem but made references to it. His statement to AH was, "J, I'm confused. Last time you were here you were planning on attending AA and getting help for the problem. Now you're telling me you don't have a problem and that AA is for losers." I can't even remember what AH said to that honestly. I hope some of this clarifies some of the points made so far in this thread.
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Old 10-25-2012, 10:37 PM
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No means no. I felt the same was as Zoenob.

I formally declared a moratorium on sex to my ExAH a couple months before we separated. It sort of felt like the UN declaring sanctions on a rogue nation at the time, but that's ultimately what it was. It gave me peace of mind, and my ex wasn't one to really pester like yours. And really, it was surreal, but I just sort of announced it one night. I think he was too dumbfounded to answer, but he was never abusive, which probably made it easier.

Good luck to you.
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