Is He Manipulating Or Am I Crazy?
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Is He Manipulating Or Am I Crazy?
My husband is an alcoholic. I am a rapidly recovering codependent. He is quite codependent in terms of his personality.
The thing is, I feel constantly controlled and manipulated in small ways and if it is in fact going on, I find it so hard to put a finger on it and I find it so hard to get him to see that's what he is doing. Or sometimes I wonder if I'm crazy.
Exhibits:
1. When I ask to talk to him about something, he won't arrange to speak to me at the soonest reasonable time. Instead, he says not now, but Later. When later I ask. Some arbitrary date/time in the future, he says. We're not talking about conversations about big decisions here, just confirming a date for a plane ticket. Or, deciding whether or not to ask company over on the weekend. Something for which I need a timely answer. I think the point is simply to control through restriction of information and making me wait.
2. I bought a plane ticket without re-confirming the date with him. It was cheap and the trip was no big deal and it was just me flying. My mother asked him about it and he was caught off-guard. He said to me, "In the future, I'd like to request that you talk to me about these things." As if it were not my habit already to talk to him about most everything. As if it were such an oversight on my part that he Needed to make a banket request for a change in my behavior.
3. Conversations in which I have a problem with his behavior are initially met with stonewalling on his part, and usually have ended up with me feeling bad about my (sometimes completely unrelated) behavior and sorry for the effect my behavior has had on him.
4.Sometimes when I get upset with him, he spends the next while teasing me in barbed ways in front of other people, like tearing down my sense of humor, or making comments to me in barbed, teasing ways about things I feel ashamed about already.
5. When he gets angry during an argument, sometimes he will shout "stop!" and put his hand up for me to stop speaking.
6. During arguments, sometimes I will ask a question and he will deem it "off topic" when it is important to me and I thought it was plenty on topic.
7. He is forever moaning and making the hugest deal about me forgetting parts of conversations or things that he's told me. I feel self-conscious to begin with about my memory, which is not awesome due to some long standing depression, and this seems like primarily a way to try to make me feel bad. He will vaguely reference some part of a long previous conversation and if I don't "know" exactly what he's talking about, then obviously I didn't listen and don't care what he says.
I'm feeling angry and distrustful. Thanks for your input.
The thing is, I feel constantly controlled and manipulated in small ways and if it is in fact going on, I find it so hard to put a finger on it and I find it so hard to get him to see that's what he is doing. Or sometimes I wonder if I'm crazy.
Exhibits:
1. When I ask to talk to him about something, he won't arrange to speak to me at the soonest reasonable time. Instead, he says not now, but Later. When later I ask. Some arbitrary date/time in the future, he says. We're not talking about conversations about big decisions here, just confirming a date for a plane ticket. Or, deciding whether or not to ask company over on the weekend. Something for which I need a timely answer. I think the point is simply to control through restriction of information and making me wait.
2. I bought a plane ticket without re-confirming the date with him. It was cheap and the trip was no big deal and it was just me flying. My mother asked him about it and he was caught off-guard. He said to me, "In the future, I'd like to request that you talk to me about these things." As if it were not my habit already to talk to him about most everything. As if it were such an oversight on my part that he Needed to make a banket request for a change in my behavior.
3. Conversations in which I have a problem with his behavior are initially met with stonewalling on his part, and usually have ended up with me feeling bad about my (sometimes completely unrelated) behavior and sorry for the effect my behavior has had on him.
4.Sometimes when I get upset with him, he spends the next while teasing me in barbed ways in front of other people, like tearing down my sense of humor, or making comments to me in barbed, teasing ways about things I feel ashamed about already.
5. When he gets angry during an argument, sometimes he will shout "stop!" and put his hand up for me to stop speaking.
6. During arguments, sometimes I will ask a question and he will deem it "off topic" when it is important to me and I thought it was plenty on topic.
7. He is forever moaning and making the hugest deal about me forgetting parts of conversations or things that he's told me. I feel self-conscious to begin with about my memory, which is not awesome due to some long standing depression, and this seems like primarily a way to try to make me feel bad. He will vaguely reference some part of a long previous conversation and if I don't "know" exactly what he's talking about, then obviously I didn't listen and don't care what he says.
I'm feeling angry and distrustful. Thanks for your input.
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Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Chicago
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It sounds like he has an enormous investment in making sure you don't express any real feeling around him or stand up for yourself. There isn't any thing you can do to change his behavior, but maybe by recognizing it for what is (manipulation and control-freakedness) you can make sure you don't internalize it. Just because someone is critical of you does not automatically mean you have done something wrong. You don't have to trust him; you should, however, trust yourself.
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Join Date: Aug 2010
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Sounds like we married the same guy. And, my AH wonders why I won't open up to him or why I don't trust him. Here's one you may be able to relate to: I needed to know when my AH was going on a business trip because I wanted to plan my trip back east to visit my mom. I asked him when he was going and he said, "I don't know, I think it's either the first or second week of October." Then, he walked away with me scratching my head and wondering: well, which one was it?
I waited a few days, he said nothing. I asked again and he said, "Let me get back to you in a bit because I'm not near my calendar." Umm, he was holding his iPhone in his hand and that has his 'calendar' on it! Anyway, my son wanted to know the dates for his own reasons and I finally had to appeal to AH by saying, "Hey there, son wants to know when you're going to Dallas because he is looking at tournaments in the Virginia area and needs to know soon." Right then and there he says, "October 9th to 11th, that's when I'll be gone." If it was so easy to answer me and he obviously knew the dates, why be so dang evasive? UGH!!! Yes, it's maddening!
Oh, and the angry during an argument thing, LOL. My AH puts both hands up in the air and I ask, "What does that mean?" His reply is, "I surrender. You're right, I'm always wrong, just ask my mother she'll tell you what a ******* I am." Oh brother. Yep, he's the victim and I'm a vicious mean woman who just wanted to point out that he got the time wrong on our dental appointments. Geez, next time I guess I'll let him miss his appointment and he can just reschedule. I'm tired, just plain tired. Sorry to vent on your thread but obviously your post struck a chord.
Now, about you: are you attending Al Anon? what are you doing to take care of yourself? At some point we just have to set some boundaries and remember that they are alcoholics. Picture the word SICK stamped across their foreheads, it really does help me whenever I feel like I'm on the crazy train.
I waited a few days, he said nothing. I asked again and he said, "Let me get back to you in a bit because I'm not near my calendar." Umm, he was holding his iPhone in his hand and that has his 'calendar' on it! Anyway, my son wanted to know the dates for his own reasons and I finally had to appeal to AH by saying, "Hey there, son wants to know when you're going to Dallas because he is looking at tournaments in the Virginia area and needs to know soon." Right then and there he says, "October 9th to 11th, that's when I'll be gone." If it was so easy to answer me and he obviously knew the dates, why be so dang evasive? UGH!!! Yes, it's maddening!
Oh, and the angry during an argument thing, LOL. My AH puts both hands up in the air and I ask, "What does that mean?" His reply is, "I surrender. You're right, I'm always wrong, just ask my mother she'll tell you what a ******* I am." Oh brother. Yep, he's the victim and I'm a vicious mean woman who just wanted to point out that he got the time wrong on our dental appointments. Geez, next time I guess I'll let him miss his appointment and he can just reschedule. I'm tired, just plain tired. Sorry to vent on your thread but obviously your post struck a chord.
Now, about you: are you attending Al Anon? what are you doing to take care of yourself? At some point we just have to set some boundaries and remember that they are alcoholics. Picture the word SICK stamped across their foreheads, it really does help me whenever I feel like I'm on the crazy train.
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Join Date: Sep 2012
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I see a great therapist. She has helped me get through a lot of the things I learned in my own abusive childhood. I've crept upward upward upward. AH "supported" me during the early days when I was a crumpled mess. He has said longs for the days when I docilely and gratefully accepted his caretaking.
As I got better, he withdrew support and had very little tolerance for the bumps and hiccups of my recovery from childhood trauma. If I got upset, it was a huge problem.
As I've gotten better, the thought has occurred to me, "Do I even know him? Is he even knowable?" I don't know of a single person that knows him in a close, intimate way. In my head, he's a cipher. There's little there. I know he's had some trauma himself. He's going to go to therapy, but it remains to be seen whether he'll make honest use of it. His modus operandi is avoiding pain and therapy can hurt.
As I got better, he withdrew support and had very little tolerance for the bumps and hiccups of my recovery from childhood trauma. If I got upset, it was a huge problem.
As I've gotten better, the thought has occurred to me, "Do I even know him? Is he even knowable?" I don't know of a single person that knows him in a close, intimate way. In my head, he's a cipher. There's little there. I know he's had some trauma himself. He's going to go to therapy, but it remains to be seen whether he'll make honest use of it. His modus operandi is avoiding pain and therapy can hurt.
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 378
Why not go into therapy together? There are always two sides to all of our stories. Ours and theirs.
My husband and I are finding marriage therapy to be amazing. I wish we had gone in years ago. We got lucky and found a brilliant man to see, the difference in how we're starting to communicate is wonderful. In therapy, the therapist gets my take on things - like you've just expressed yours - then he gets my husband's take on the same event. We see the same events very differently. Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus . . .
I'd get a reference and go in together. What's to lose?
My husband and I are finding marriage therapy to be amazing. I wish we had gone in years ago. We got lucky and found a brilliant man to see, the difference in how we're starting to communicate is wonderful. In therapy, the therapist gets my take on things - like you've just expressed yours - then he gets my husband's take on the same event. We see the same events very differently. Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus . . .
I'd get a reference and go in together. What's to lose?
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Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,754
Addiction, Lies and Relationships
I was unable to see how insane my invovlement and interactions with my axbf were until I got away from it. The manipulation and brain washing was so intense, he kept me in a constant state of questioning myself.
It's no way to live. There was literally nothing I said or did that was not twisted into some kind of malicious crime against him. He was projecting his behavior onto to me.
I hope you can find a way to try to get on handle on things, this behavior will literally make you crazy. I feel for you, maybe some individual counseling will help you to begin to sort this out.
What you are dealing with is deeply disturbing , a very sick and deliberate attempt to keep you controlled , confused, and as sick as he is.
I was unable to see how insane my invovlement and interactions with my axbf were until I got away from it. The manipulation and brain washing was so intense, he kept me in a constant state of questioning myself.
It's no way to live. There was literally nothing I said or did that was not twisted into some kind of malicious crime against him. He was projecting his behavior onto to me.
I hope you can find a way to try to get on handle on things, this behavior will literally make you crazy. I feel for you, maybe some individual counseling will help you to begin to sort this out.
What you are dealing with is deeply disturbing , a very sick and deliberate attempt to keep you controlled , confused, and as sick as he is.
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 528
AH used to give me vague times when we needed to be somewhere or multiple times. Then the day of he would be upset because I didnt have the kids ready to go at the right time he really meant. Also he would spring things on me that had to be done right now or (insert dire consequence). Watch me run around like a frazzled nut after that trying to complete the task.
Discussing his behavior, things were always conveniently in the past, why was I bringing that up? My behavior, lets dredge up 1998.
Blame shifting... Our whole marriage. Everything great and small, from leaking plumbing to stubbed toes, my fault.
The thing is, I dont think this stuff was consciously planned. Maybe some. I just think like someone said above, they are sick.
Discussing his behavior, things were always conveniently in the past, why was I bringing that up? My behavior, lets dredge up 1998.
Blame shifting... Our whole marriage. Everything great and small, from leaking plumbing to stubbed toes, my fault.
The thing is, I dont think this stuff was consciously planned. Maybe some. I just think like someone said above, they are sick.
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
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Ew Kale, reading your post just makes me sick and anxious. I wish you would get away from him. He is beyond toxic. Yes, he is manipulating you and yes, living with such a sick, disgusting, toxic person is probably making you crazy.
Please see the list of manipulation tactics here:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ipulation.html
Please see the list of manipulation tactics here:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ipulation.html
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I would avoid advice to go together. Going to therapy with an active alcoholic is sometimes emotionally explosive, but usually totally useless.
I'm sorry you're dealing with this. I'm glad to hear you're in therapy to alleviate the childhood traumas (me too!). It helps.
I'm sorry you're dealing with this. I'm glad to hear you're in therapy to alleviate the childhood traumas (me too!). It helps.
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To me this is "pushing buttons" behavior. He knows it annoys you and does it anyway and that's what he wants! I don't know if this could be solely attributed to just alcoholic behavior I have encountered it in several men who were not.
People who like to control like this generally have no control in their own lives instead try to control those around them while theirs is falling apart. I wonder if the reason you don't buck the system so to speak is that you fear retaliation? Perhaps if you decide to make a decision without consulting him he will then do something to you aggregious - so in a way this is also how you keep things 'peaceful" in the house?
I have dealt with this a little bit in my current relationship - and mama don't play that game. Best way to deal with a Bully is punch them right in the face. There is no arguing over things or decisions I can make myself or I had to make because there wasn't time to consult or he was unavailable. I do not participate in these arguments my favorite response being "get over it" or "you should have picked a puppet for a mate if you need to control every decision in someone's life". While being controlling he doesn't want to be classified as such. Its weird. And he doesn't do it anymore.
Good luck to you dear, your story made me queasy - you aren't crazy. You deserve better.
People who like to control like this generally have no control in their own lives instead try to control those around them while theirs is falling apart. I wonder if the reason you don't buck the system so to speak is that you fear retaliation? Perhaps if you decide to make a decision without consulting him he will then do something to you aggregious - so in a way this is also how you keep things 'peaceful" in the house?
I have dealt with this a little bit in my current relationship - and mama don't play that game. Best way to deal with a Bully is punch them right in the face. There is no arguing over things or decisions I can make myself or I had to make because there wasn't time to consult or he was unavailable. I do not participate in these arguments my favorite response being "get over it" or "you should have picked a puppet for a mate if you need to control every decision in someone's life". While being controlling he doesn't want to be classified as such. Its weird. And he doesn't do it anymore.
Good luck to you dear, your story made me queasy - you aren't crazy. You deserve better.
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Strikes me as passive-aggressive personality disorder.
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Originally Posted by Florence 
I would avoid advice to go together. Going to therapy with an active alcoholic is sometimes emotionally explosive, but usually totally useless.
I'm sorry you're dealing with this. I'm glad to hear you're in therapy to alleviate the childhood traumas (me too!). It helps.
I'm sorry you're dealing with this. I'm glad to hear you're in therapy to alleviate the childhood traumas (me too!). It helps.
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,443
Despite what other personality quirks he may or may not have he is an activel alcoholic.
The active alcoholic part means that conversations with him will never work. He is not capable of having those types of conversations. The history of your relationship proves that. Discussions lead to arguments, which will lead to exactly what you have now - which is him doing and saying things that make you feel crazy and bad. Intimacy where you talk about relationship concerns and work them out are NOT POSSIBLE with active alcoholics. You'll either get what you have, or what I had which was lots of agreements to stop the conversation and zero follow through. No arguing but no changing. When I started following the discussions with actions of my own that he didn't like - then we got some arguing. Not even arguing - he went ballistic and battered me with hours of continuous ranting and raving even when I didn't speak a word. Lots of emotional abuse, guilt, and manipulation aimed at the buttons he knew I had (like your ah focuses on your memory because he knows it is a button).
Clearing or discussing plans will never ever work. Make your plans in a way that makes sense, tell him about it, and his reactions are his problem - not yours. Try and detach from his reactions. The alternative is to never make a plan. That seems like a miserable way to live.
My husband (ex) teased like that too and some moaning about things I did (not a lot of that for me). It got worse as his drinking progressed. I imagine because he had his own anger/resentments from our very dysfunctional relationship and that anger leaked out in the form of teasing and barbs. Also his own ability to participate in a meaningful give/take way, where one see's and understands both their behavior and their spouses reactions, was diminishing. I just ignored it but I had resentments and just felt bad about myself and that isn't good. I had a tendency to ignore it all but that was just discounting myself entirely, as if I didn't matter.
It was a coping mechanism I used but it was bad, what I did to myself.
Therapy might be able to fix some of that but not while he is active. His brain will not allow him to fix those things while under the influence of active addiction. The premise of marriage therapy is that both people make the marriage a priority and want to make it better. An active alcoholic can't do that. Addiction goes in a different direction from the marriage relationship and an active addict will always follow the voice of addiction.
So, continue to focus on making your own life one that is joyous and as peaceful as possible. Continue to learn and educate yourself on co-dependency, work on your own issues, work on detaching from the alcoholism, and do the next right thing for yourself. Life has a way of working out in the end if we do the hard work of focusing on our own feelings and outcomes rather than someone elses.
The active alcoholic part means that conversations with him will never work. He is not capable of having those types of conversations. The history of your relationship proves that. Discussions lead to arguments, which will lead to exactly what you have now - which is him doing and saying things that make you feel crazy and bad. Intimacy where you talk about relationship concerns and work them out are NOT POSSIBLE with active alcoholics. You'll either get what you have, or what I had which was lots of agreements to stop the conversation and zero follow through. No arguing but no changing. When I started following the discussions with actions of my own that he didn't like - then we got some arguing. Not even arguing - he went ballistic and battered me with hours of continuous ranting and raving even when I didn't speak a word. Lots of emotional abuse, guilt, and manipulation aimed at the buttons he knew I had (like your ah focuses on your memory because he knows it is a button).
Clearing or discussing plans will never ever work. Make your plans in a way that makes sense, tell him about it, and his reactions are his problem - not yours. Try and detach from his reactions. The alternative is to never make a plan. That seems like a miserable way to live.
My husband (ex) teased like that too and some moaning about things I did (not a lot of that for me). It got worse as his drinking progressed. I imagine because he had his own anger/resentments from our very dysfunctional relationship and that anger leaked out in the form of teasing and barbs. Also his own ability to participate in a meaningful give/take way, where one see's and understands both their behavior and their spouses reactions, was diminishing. I just ignored it but I had resentments and just felt bad about myself and that isn't good. I had a tendency to ignore it all but that was just discounting myself entirely, as if I didn't matter.
It was a coping mechanism I used but it was bad, what I did to myself. Therapy might be able to fix some of that but not while he is active. His brain will not allow him to fix those things while under the influence of active addiction. The premise of marriage therapy is that both people make the marriage a priority and want to make it better. An active alcoholic can't do that. Addiction goes in a different direction from the marriage relationship and an active addict will always follow the voice of addiction.
So, continue to focus on making your own life one that is joyous and as peaceful as possible. Continue to learn and educate yourself on co-dependency, work on your own issues, work on detaching from the alcoholism, and do the next right thing for yourself. Life has a way of working out in the end if we do the hard work of focusing on our own feelings and outcomes rather than someone elses.
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Most people think my husband is so nice, so sweet, and because I seem that way too (and it's a lot closer to the truth for me!) that we must be perfect for each other.
I know that I absolutely dread conflict with him because I'm afraid of getting into an argument that is confusing, frightening, and for which there is no possible "resolution" except for me ending up in a state of apologetic guilt. I think of it as a vortex. Or I can totally withdraw from him and stop the conversation, and I still feel guilty and uneasy. There seems to be very little overlap between my reality and his and damned if I know what to do about it. He blames me for his unhappiness and alcoholism and then insists that isn't what he's doing.
Back before I really had improvement in my issues, I sensed something that at the time I called passive-aggressiveness. He acted like it was the most horrible thing in the world that I would suggest that he was doing something he wasn't aware of. I was saying he was incompetent. I pulled away from him in fear and anger and tried to hold his feet to the fire. I tried to argue with him and make him see. I gave up and "reconciled," guiltily thinking that I hurt him so badly. He insists this period is the worst in his life. He insists that if he has relationship problems, it's because he learned it from me or because my personal issues were difficult and make him depressed.
My personal issues were big, coming from an abusive home, perhaps too big for some to manage in an intimate relationship, but definitely not too big for others. I wonder if his behavior actually slowed my recovery, the indulgence combined with the crazy-making. I always was emotionally honest and forthcoming about my struggle and openly worked hard and consistently for clarity and recovery. He is not doing the same.
I know that I absolutely dread conflict with him because I'm afraid of getting into an argument that is confusing, frightening, and for which there is no possible "resolution" except for me ending up in a state of apologetic guilt. I think of it as a vortex. Or I can totally withdraw from him and stop the conversation, and I still feel guilty and uneasy. There seems to be very little overlap between my reality and his and damned if I know what to do about it. He blames me for his unhappiness and alcoholism and then insists that isn't what he's doing.
Back before I really had improvement in my issues, I sensed something that at the time I called passive-aggressiveness. He acted like it was the most horrible thing in the world that I would suggest that he was doing something he wasn't aware of. I was saying he was incompetent. I pulled away from him in fear and anger and tried to hold his feet to the fire. I tried to argue with him and make him see. I gave up and "reconciled," guiltily thinking that I hurt him so badly. He insists this period is the worst in his life. He insists that if he has relationship problems, it's because he learned it from me or because my personal issues were difficult and make him depressed.
My personal issues were big, coming from an abusive home, perhaps too big for some to manage in an intimate relationship, but definitely not too big for others. I wonder if his behavior actually slowed my recovery, the indulgence combined with the crazy-making. I always was emotionally honest and forthcoming about my struggle and openly worked hard and consistently for clarity and recovery. He is not doing the same.
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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My ex RAH was like this.
All the time.
It is a form of control.
It has to be all on his terms.
I would consider whether you want to be in a relationship w someone who needs things to be all on their terms.
With us, it extends into childcare and money.
All on his terms. Drove me nuts.
He is 2 years sober and it did not get better. Got kinda worse.
All the time.
It is a form of control.
It has to be all on his terms.
I would consider whether you want to be in a relationship w someone who needs things to be all on their terms.
With us, it extends into childcare and money.
All on his terms. Drove me nuts.
He is 2 years sober and it did not get better. Got kinda worse.
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Going to marriage counseling with an actively using addict is a waste of money and time.
Going to marriage counseling with an abusive spouse is volunteering for more abuse.
No, you're not crazy. He's manipulative.
Going to marriage counseling with an abusive spouse is volunteering for more abuse.
No, you're not crazy. He's manipulative.
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