In Sickness and in Health - How does that fare?
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Join Date: May 2012
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Originally Posted by WishingWell 
I have a few thoughts . . . I wonder how easy it is to live with each of our sh*t? How easy has it been for my husband to live with mine? I wouldn't say it's been easy and he has stuck right by my side. Maybe I have a more remarkable husband than most, who happens to have a disease? But I doubt it. At the worst of it I could match story for story and probably exceed them. I chose to keep supporting him towards his recovery, even though I needed a time-out. I'm glad that I did. I am one person who truly knows and believes that this is an illness. My boundary though is, after sufficient time went by for him and I to absorb the fact that this is a disease and to educate ourselves, he must be getting some kind of treatment. Which treatment he chooses is up to him. But that also has fully applied to me as well. I take full responsibility for my own growth, my own therapy, my own flaws.
...
And this -
Would you leave if spouse had cancer?
I would if he kept going to the store to buy more cancer.
How many people here to go the store to buy cigarettes? How many people go to the store to by crummy, unhealthy food and feed it to themselves and their kids? How many people drink diet sodas? How many people eat junk food? How many people are over weight? How many people eat too many animal products? How many people take and buy at the pharmacy too many prescription drugs? How many people don't get sufficient exercise? The list goes on . . .
All of these actions are cancer triggers. Let's not be self-righteous here.
I have a friend whose husband has clinical depression and it's a total slice of hell. Is she staying - yes. I have another friend whose wife, my best friend, is dying from brain cancer. Is he staying, is it HELL - yes. Nobody could drag him away from her. She's smoked pot almost her entire life, new theories say that pot can trigger brain cancer. He's a doctor, he knows that, he loves her - he's there for her.
...
I don't expect much support here on this forum for my views and I get that. I've had other married people here privately message me who don't see the support for staying. That's OK. This is a good place to vent and get out frustration. I just hope that everyone is very careful how we talk to people who come here afraid and vulnerable, and not just use our own decision to leave as a catalyst to encourage everyone else to. I for one, am happy to be here in my marriage. For many reasons . . .
...
And this -
Would you leave if spouse had cancer?
I would if he kept going to the store to buy more cancer.
How many people here to go the store to buy cigarettes? How many people go to the store to by crummy, unhealthy food and feed it to themselves and their kids? How many people drink diet sodas? How many people eat junk food? How many people are over weight? How many people eat too many animal products? How many people take and buy at the pharmacy too many prescription drugs? How many people don't get sufficient exercise? The list goes on . . .
All of these actions are cancer triggers. Let's not be self-righteous here.
I have a friend whose husband has clinical depression and it's a total slice of hell. Is she staying - yes. I have another friend whose wife, my best friend, is dying from brain cancer. Is he staying, is it HELL - yes. Nobody could drag him away from her. She's smoked pot almost her entire life, new theories say that pot can trigger brain cancer. He's a doctor, he knows that, he loves her - he's there for her.
...
I don't expect much support here on this forum for my views and I get that. I've had other married people here privately message me who don't see the support for staying. That's OK. This is a good place to vent and get out frustration. I just hope that everyone is very careful how we talk to people who come here afraid and vulnerable, and not just use our own decision to leave as a catalyst to encourage everyone else to. I for one, am happy to be here in my marriage. For many reasons . . .
Iceberg Ahead!
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Join Date: Sep 2012
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What of the spouse who refuses chemotherapy or radiation even though medically indicated?
The examples can go on and on.
I think that what really helps is to reflect on all those moments in time - an instant or years in the making - when we look at our situations and ponder what to do about them. What do we think and take into account, what are the feelings that arm-wrestle within us, what soul-searching do we do? Sharing these things, perhaps, will make that decision a little easier, that curveball - among the many pitches thrown at us by the disease - a bit more predictable.
Wishful thinking? I hope not.
The examples can go on and on.
I think that what really helps is to reflect on all those moments in time - an instant or years in the making - when we look at our situations and ponder what to do about them. What do we think and take into account, what are the feelings that arm-wrestle within us, what soul-searching do we do? Sharing these things, perhaps, will make that decision a little easier, that curveball - among the many pitches thrown at us by the disease - a bit more predictable.
Wishful thinking? I hope not.
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 490
Originally Posted by WishingWell
How many people here to go the store to buy cigarettes? How many people go to the store to by crummy, unhealthy food and feed it to themselves and their kids? How many people drink diet sodas? How many people eat junk food? How many people are over weight? How many people eat too many animal products? How many people take and buy at the pharmacy too many prescription drugs? How many people don't get sufficient exercise? The list goes on . . .
All of these actions are cancer triggers. Let's not be self-righteous here.
All of these actions are cancer triggers. Let's not be self-righteous here.
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,443
Originally Posted by Titanic
What of the spouse who refuses chemotherapy or radiation even though medically indicated?
The examples can go on and on.
I think that what really helps is to reflect on all those moments in time - an instant or years in the making - when we look at our situations and ponder what to do about them. What do we think and take into account, what are the feelings that arm-wrestle within us, what soul-searching do we do? Sharing these things, perhaps, will make that decision a little easier, that curveball - among the many pitches thrown at us by the disease - a bit more predictable.
Wishful thinking? I hope not.
The examples can go on and on.
I think that what really helps is to reflect on all those moments in time - an instant or years in the making - when we look at our situations and ponder what to do about them. What do we think and take into account, what are the feelings that arm-wrestle within us, what soul-searching do we do? Sharing these things, perhaps, will make that decision a little easier, that curveball - among the many pitches thrown at us by the disease - a bit more predictable.
Wishful thinking? I hope not.
There is no guide. Some people factor in religion, others do not. Kids, family, economics, friends. It all factors in. Ultimately we leaved based on misery even when our very soul is screaming no.
If someone makes a rational decision to stay (not a dysfunctional decision based on codependency or abusive dynamics) they are getting something out of it. There is nothing wrong with that but they have not reached the tipping point. Different things carry more weight for different people, different people have different skill sets in how they handle life. There is no guide.
There are counselors and they help if someone is really struggling. They help not because they have a guide that tells us what decision to make, they help because they teach us we don't need a guide - only listen to our own selves. We listen to what our own self needs and they help us learn to make peace with that decision, whether it is to stay or go.
I may not be a good one to ask because I don't think there is any special medal of honor to those that choose to stay and work it out over those that choose to leave. What ever works for the individual - great. We can say lives are ruined by divorce and that is true but I'm beginning to believe that a few lives have been ruined by refusing to divorce too. I look back over my family legacy - of the woman that stayed with their alcoholic husbands. I can't see how their lives, or the lives of their children, were any better off for it other than society in general didn't allow woman to divorce very easily so they saved themselves that pain.
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Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 41
Would you leave if spouse had cancer?
I would if he kept going to the store to buy more cancer.
How many people here to go the store to buy cigarettes? How many people go to the store to by crummy, unhealthy food and feed it to themselves and their kids? How many people drink diet sodas? How many people eat junk food? How many people are over weight? How many people eat too many animal products? How many people take and buy at the pharmacy too many prescription drugs? How many people don't get sufficient exercise? The list goes on . . .
All of these actions are cancer triggers. Let's not be self-righteous here.
I would if he kept going to the store to buy more cancer.
How many people here to go the store to buy cigarettes? How many people go to the store to by crummy, unhealthy food and feed it to themselves and their kids? How many people drink diet sodas? How many people eat junk food? How many people are over weight? How many people eat too many animal products? How many people take and buy at the pharmacy too many prescription drugs? How many people don't get sufficient exercise? The list goes on . . .
All of these actions are cancer triggers. Let's not be self-righteous here.
What of the spouse who refuses chemotherapy or radiation even though medically indicated?
That said, I believe that whether or not to divorce is a highly personal decision, and one which NO ONE else has the right to judge.
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Originally Posted by Thumper
I may not be a good one to ask because I don't think there is any special medal of honor to those that choose to stay and work it out over those that choose to leave. What ever works for the individual - great.
The "medal of honor" goes to those who live their own lives to the fullest. Relationships with others--even spouses--are secondary to the primary relationship with ourselves. If you can be fully who you are, and who you are meant to be, then it doesn't matter a bit whether you stay or not.
L
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Location: Midwest, USA
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What of the spouse who refuses chemotherapy or radiation even though medically indicated?
The examples can go on and on.
The examples can go on and on.
It is not the presence of the disease that makes living with an alcoholic so unworkable. It's the abuse we suffer, the physical and emotional neglect, the low lifetime recovery rates, the negative effects on our children, the financial hardships, and the chaos. Cancer and diabetes don't typically require spouses to suffer increasing levels of abuse through the lifetime of their marriages. Cancer and diabetes are not typified by ongoing lists of unacceptable behaviors.
Alcoholism is not passive. It's aggressive and it tears up families. I find this whole thread triggering and offensive, and I keep coming back to it triggered and furious. I have fought for the last two years to give myself permission to leave my AH instead of doubling down like I have every time before. This whole thread is an exercise in whether or not it's sane to maintain a fantasy to the point of self-destruction. I can tell you from experience, no, it's not. And I can't believe it's on the table.
Iceberg Ahead!
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Originally Posted by Florence
Alcoholism is not passive. It's aggressive and it tears up families. I find this whole thread triggering and offensive, and I keep coming back to it triggered and furious. I have fought for the last two years to give myself permission to leave my AH instead of doubling down like I have every time before. This whole thread is an exercise in whether or not it's sane to maintain a fantasy to the point of self-destruction. I can tell you from experience, no, it's not. And I can't believe it's on the table.
Bear in mind though that some of us just want help in figuring out what that point is and how close we are to it, so each of us can be able to say to ourselves that "we did the best, the most we could've" when making the decision or when looking back on it. And to believe and live with it. [Not meant to say that you aren't one of us either.
]
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Join Date: Aug 2012
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I agree with Florence about these "thought experiments." However, I also like the "not if he goes to the store and buys more cancer" retort. That response will at least give someone an idea of what it can be like and really, the absurdity of comparing the two diseases.
It is a sickness, a disease, and I believe that. If my husband had cancer or diabetes or some other illness, I doubt that I would worry about the safety of my children around him. If my husband had some terrible mental illness that put me or my children in physical danger. I would likely find a way to protect myself but not abandon him and be supportive of him.
As much as we want a user's manual, we can't use the lawnmower manual to fix the dishwasher!
Alcoholism is different in the way it impacts families. Not every alcoholic is violent. Not every alcoholic is unable to keep a job. Unfortunately, some are violent and some lose job after job.
I have seven siblings - none are divorced. Of my dozens of cousins, 3 are divorced. seriously. Not one of them has in anyway expected me to stay in my marriage.
I'm right there with Lillamy - TRIGGERED - by this thread.
MamaKit
It is a sickness, a disease, and I believe that. If my husband had cancer or diabetes or some other illness, I doubt that I would worry about the safety of my children around him. If my husband had some terrible mental illness that put me or my children in physical danger. I would likely find a way to protect myself but not abandon him and be supportive of him.
As much as we want a user's manual, we can't use the lawnmower manual to fix the dishwasher!
Alcoholism is different in the way it impacts families. Not every alcoholic is violent. Not every alcoholic is unable to keep a job. Unfortunately, some are violent and some lose job after job.
I have seven siblings - none are divorced. Of my dozens of cousins, 3 are divorced. seriously. Not one of them has in anyway expected me to stay in my marriage.
I'm right there with Lillamy - TRIGGERED - by this thread.
MamaKit
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Originally Posted by Thumper
I feel almost as much panic at the thought of getting back together as I once did about getting away.
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some of us just want help in figuring out what that point is and how close we are to it, so each of us can be able to say to ourselves that "we did the best, the most we could've" when making the decision or when looking back on it. And to believe and live with it.
For me, it was an issue of knowing myself. I knew myself well enough to be able to tell my AH that while I would fight for our marriage, I couldn't do it alone, and that when I get to the point of no return, there is really no return. Once I hit that wall, nothing in the universe will get me to change my mind.
I weighed a lot of things over the years. Did I have the right to take the children away from their father? Did I have the right to break my marriage vows? Would he lawyer up and take the kids if I filed? Would he kill me and dump the body in the ocean? Would he hurt the children?
I hit the point of no return when someone from the outside validated my judgment on my marriage. When someone overheard an interaction between AH and me and said, "that is abuse. And you don't need to live with it."
People had offered me help to leave over the years, but I wasn't there yet. This time, I had no help. I left without having anywhere to go. With the kids. Because once I hit that "I have had it. This is the end." feeling -- it didn't matter.
So I think that's my response to your quandry. You will know when you've had enough. And at that point, no rational argument in the world will hold sway over you. And you won't look back and say "maybe I didn't do enough?" because you will know that you had done enough.
Iceberg Ahead!
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MamaKit, sorry the thread triggered you too. 
I am glad that none of your relatives gave you grief but, instead, were understanding.
Yes, there are many circumstances that are unique to each of our situations. But here, as well as in Al-Anon, we often seek and find common ground. We share some situations and often similar solutions.
For example, it's common to read here on SR stuff like: "Well, if the A is doing this and that, but not these other things, then the A is not working a program, is not in recovery and is probably drinking or at best a dry drunk. Think, the A is sick; it's still the disease."
We try to discern patterns and conditions. We may look at similar considerations, and experience equal emotions. A subset of people may go through similar mental processes - how often do we read "I was thinking, feeling or experiencing the same thing"? On the other hand, when another subset of people go through a different mental process in working things out, that often can be more illuminating and helpful for the people that don't.
People may approve or thank such a post, or not. People may say I agree with this part of it but I don't know about that part, and I definitely disagree with the other one. Etc.
And, in my mind, that's all good no matter what the alcoholism or addiction issue is that has affected some or even all of us.
Now, where's that darn dishwasher manual???
I am glad that none of your relatives gave you grief but, instead, were understanding.
Yes, there are many circumstances that are unique to each of our situations. But here, as well as in Al-Anon, we often seek and find common ground. We share some situations and often similar solutions.
For example, it's common to read here on SR stuff like: "Well, if the A is doing this and that, but not these other things, then the A is not working a program, is not in recovery and is probably drinking or at best a dry drunk. Think, the A is sick; it's still the disease."
We try to discern patterns and conditions. We may look at similar considerations, and experience equal emotions. A subset of people may go through similar mental processes - how often do we read "I was thinking, feeling or experiencing the same thing"? On the other hand, when another subset of people go through a different mental process in working things out, that often can be more illuminating and helpful for the people that don't.
People may approve or thank such a post, or not. People may say I agree with this part of it but I don't know about that part, and I definitely disagree with the other one. Etc.
And, in my mind, that's all good no matter what the alcoholism or addiction issue is that has affected some or even all of us.
Now, where's that darn dishwasher manual???
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Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 391
Thanks Titanic,
I think you noticed in another post that I'm having a tough day. (Thank you for your encouragement) I'm right smack dab in the middle of a protection from abuse process and at the beginning of the divorce proceedings and working to muster courage to move forward with my decisions. I've struggled so to keep out the doubt and to trust myself to do what is right. (I know my choice to leave was right.) Right now I guess that I'm too close to this topic to look at it objectively or academically. However, I certainly see the value in the discussion. And certainly there were "markers" in my journey with STBAXH that could be used as a guide to help others struggling with the question about "in sickness and in health" and where the line should be drawn.
Should the opportunity present itself, I'll offer my wisdom on this topic further down the road when I have a bit more distance.
Hugs,
MamaKit
I think you noticed in another post that I'm having a tough day. (Thank you for your encouragement) I'm right smack dab in the middle of a protection from abuse process and at the beginning of the divorce proceedings and working to muster courage to move forward with my decisions. I've struggled so to keep out the doubt and to trust myself to do what is right. (I know my choice to leave was right.) Right now I guess that I'm too close to this topic to look at it objectively or academically. However, I certainly see the value in the discussion. And certainly there were "markers" in my journey with STBAXH that could be used as a guide to help others struggling with the question about "in sickness and in health" and where the line should be drawn.
Should the opportunity present itself, I'll offer my wisdom on this topic further down the road when I have a bit more distance.
Hugs,
MamaKit
Iceberg Ahead!
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Originally Posted by lillamy
I weighed a lot of things over the years. Did I have the right to take the children away from their father? Did I have the right to break my marriage vows? Would he lawyer up and take the kids if I filed? Would he kill me and dump the body in the ocean? Would he hurt the children?
I hit the point of no return when someone from the outside validated my judgment on my marriage. When someone overheard an interaction between AH and me and said, "that is abuse. And you don't need to live with it."
People had offered me help to leave over the years, but I wasn't there yet. This time, I had no help. I left without having anywhere to go. With the kids. Because once I hit that "I have had it. This is the end." feeling -- it didn't matter.
So I think that's my response to your quandry. You will know when you've had enough. And at that point, no rational argument in the world will hold sway over you. And you won't look back and say "maybe I didn't do enough?" because you will know that you had done enough.
I hit the point of no return when someone from the outside validated my judgment on my marriage. When someone overheard an interaction between AH and me and said, "that is abuse. And you don't need to live with it."
People had offered me help to leave over the years, but I wasn't there yet. This time, I had no help. I left without having anywhere to go. With the kids. Because once I hit that "I have had it. This is the end." feeling -- it didn't matter.
So I think that's my response to your quandry. You will know when you've had enough. And at that point, no rational argument in the world will hold sway over you. And you won't look back and say "maybe I didn't do enough?" because you will know that you had done enough.
The first paragraph (I italicized it) speaks to just some of the things you considered on the question of "Which path to take?" You were going through a "travel guide" of your own as to things to take in, and which you did take in.
The second paragraph refers to outside validation (I bolded it), which is what I was talking about when referring to "tour guides!" Though I was focusing on marriage counselors back in that post, it is up to each of us to decide whether a "local" observer like yours, a trusted sponsor or friend, a valued advisor, our Higher Power, a marriage counselor or two, etc. is our best choice. Your revelation was great, because it was like an independent, random, and unexpected "sign" of how others in the world objectively could or did view your relationship. And that "disrespect" (at a minimum) the observer witnessed was an important factor in and of itself. So, at that one moment, not only did you have another substantive reason but you also went through a process of obtaining an "outsider's opinion!" And you didn't even have to fork over a co-pay to a counselor! HP at work. Sometimes, it's really revealing to observe how "outside the home" behavior is so different than the one in the home.
In your third paragraph, you refer to the all-important element of time spent simmering on the problem (I fonted that in blue). We all get there in due course, in our own time, just like you did.
Fourth and finally, you then - and not before - reached "the point" where you knew and could act confidently! (I underlined it).
So, after starting where you and I started here, I think you came up with a great framework for a "manual" or "travel guide" for us!
Let it Begin with Me as we say in Al-Anon. Here's MY take-away "travel guide" (wihout trying to list all the considerations) so far, and I hope it's okay with you:
1. Keep an Open Mind. Think of the lives (kids, both spouses, etc.), concerns, medical conditions, history, principles and other considerations from various sources (Al-Anon, SR, written material on addiction-recovery and marriage-relationships, religious options, legal options, diagnoses, treatment plans, etc.) that go into "picking the path." Ask myself what cannot be changed, and what can I change before deciding this? Remember that But For the Grace of God the alcoholic or addict could have been ME. Put First Things First, and ask How Important Is It? - as to each consideration.
2. Check with some "tour guides." Look for qualified, independent, knowledgeable and appropriate ones. Discretely seek out outside opinions from an addiction/marriage counselor or two, a valued advisor, a trusted sponsor or friend, my Higher Power ... Listen and Learn (lillamy did!).
3. Easy Does It. Give It Time. AA says to wait for at least one year of the A's sober recovery before making any big decisions. Al-Anon says to wait at least 6-9 months from the start of MY recovery. If I wait, More Will Be Revealed (just as it was to lillamy). Take this process One Day at a Time.
4. When I go through that process, I will get to a point where I will KNOW the right answer and I will be able to act on it confidently. Then, I can Let Go of the outcome, and I can Live and Let Live.
The raw materials and the process. The ingredients and the recipe. The where, who, how and when of the tour.2. Check with some "tour guides." Look for qualified, independent, knowledgeable and appropriate ones. Discretely seek out outside opinions from an addiction/marriage counselor or two, a valued advisor, a trusted sponsor or friend, my Higher Power ... Listen and Learn (lillamy did!).
3. Easy Does It. Give It Time. AA says to wait for at least one year of the A's sober recovery before making any big decisions. Al-Anon says to wait at least 6-9 months from the start of MY recovery. If I wait, More Will Be Revealed (just as it was to lillamy). Take this process One Day at a Time.
4. When I go through that process, I will get to a point where I will KNOW the right answer and I will be able to act on it confidently. Then, I can Let Go of the outcome, and I can Live and Let Live.
That's just a start, a proposal. Please continue to light the way!
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I spent years analyzing, debating, negotiating, praying, seeking opinions from people who knew me and people who didn't (counselors, priests....). I did this because of THOSE vows.
My exah was dry, I think, maybe 3 months at his longest stretch although there were ALWAYS alot of promises that things woldl change...that HE would change.
Guess what...he didn't.
And I GREW SICKER AND SICKER AND SICKER.
And once I managed to seperate myself and gain some peace and healing and worked MY program, the dust cleared and I saw how much DAMAGE I did to myself and to our son by staying and fighting so hard to 'make it work' because of those vows.
I have a responsibility as a mom to raise my son in a stable, peaceful and healthy environment. I"m sorry...but that just wasn't possible with my exah in our home. It just wasn't.
Disease or not...he had four differntn trips to rehab...four different trips to the psych ward...lots of financial and legal ruin...lots and lots of 'wake up calls' and chances to get sober if he wanted to. He had the support of his wife, his kids, a nice home to live in...he had it all. And it just didn't matter. He CHOSE not to recover.
He had choices.
And thankfully...so did I. And when I got to that point, there wasn't anything left to debate. It was either seperate and divorce or be dragged under with him.
I thank God everyday that I found the strength to leave and divorce him. My only regret is that I didn't do it sooner.
And once you get tot hat point, as I did, other people's opinions simply cease to matter. It's just that clear.
My exah was dry, I think, maybe 3 months at his longest stretch although there were ALWAYS alot of promises that things woldl change...that HE would change.
Guess what...he didn't.
And I GREW SICKER AND SICKER AND SICKER.
And once I managed to seperate myself and gain some peace and healing and worked MY program, the dust cleared and I saw how much DAMAGE I did to myself and to our son by staying and fighting so hard to 'make it work' because of those vows.
I have a responsibility as a mom to raise my son in a stable, peaceful and healthy environment. I"m sorry...but that just wasn't possible with my exah in our home. It just wasn't.
Disease or not...he had four differntn trips to rehab...four different trips to the psych ward...lots of financial and legal ruin...lots and lots of 'wake up calls' and chances to get sober if he wanted to. He had the support of his wife, his kids, a nice home to live in...he had it all. And it just didn't matter. He CHOSE not to recover.
He had choices.
And thankfully...so did I. And when I got to that point, there wasn't anything left to debate. It was either seperate and divorce or be dragged under with him.
I thank God everyday that I found the strength to leave and divorce him. My only regret is that I didn't do it sooner.
And once you get tot hat point, as I did, other people's opinions simply cease to matter. It's just that clear.
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Sorry that happened to you outonalimb.
How did you get to your point of "enough is enough" if I may ask? I know you wrestled mightily with this (as most of us do), so what made the difference? What became the most important factors in your decision to detour?
P.S. Did he ever get sober recovery?
How did you get to your point of "enough is enough" if I may ask? I know you wrestled mightily with this (as most of us do), so what made the difference? What became the most important factors in your decision to detour?
P.S. Did he ever get sober recovery?
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My situation is probably easier than most. My wife gets out of rehab and now wants to separate. We don't have children, and I'm not going to sit around for weeks, months or longer for her to realize she's still making irrational decisions. I'm going to start the process. My friends and family know how much blood, sweat and tears I've poured into this marriage and how I've tried as much as I could to save this marriage. I even talked to my pastor and she totally agrees that I've done all I can at this point. It sucks because it's still fresh and I'm very hurt, but I'm just trying to be positive and think and know that this is for the best. Maybe now I can meet someone without all this extra baggage that may resurface every year or couple of years. The only scary thing is whether I will be at a point to not take her back if she ever decides she wants to come back (again). Never wanted to get divorced, but there's only so much one can do and put up with. That's not what a marriage or love should be about -- putting up with stuff.
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