In Sickness and in Health - How does that fare?

Old 10-01-2012, 10:48 AM
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I don’t know that divorce is a fashionable new outfit
I really agree with this.
I have yet to meet a person who took their divorce lightly.
Well, maybe that Kardashian woman, but we don't move in the same circles, really.
Most people, whether married to an addict or not, spend a lot of time agonizing over the decision before they take the step.

I know that while I was still married, I was extremely judgmental of people who chose divorce. I felt very superior to them, because they were breaking their vows. I was never going to do that. It's amazing what a little experience can do for your attitudes.
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Old 10-01-2012, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Titanic View Post
Questions like: when is is too late to get out of that "hell" or when does the balance tip from the marriage/family end to the protect everyone from addiction/alcoholism problems side?

For example, assume that we non-As thought that marriage was absolute, sacred. Someone who was battered by an A then comes along here on SR and says, no, I think domestic violence is a huge exception to marriage and, absent effective therapy, trumps marriage with an A. Great, we would learn from that consideration, factor or option if you will.
I found this last week, and LOVED it, because I feel the same way about marriage and family. Note the 4th paragraph. Dr. Laura has a saying that the three A's wreck a marriage and invalidate any vows. Those are Abuse, Addictions, and Adultery. And forewarning to folks here, she is in the camp of believing addictions are a personal choice (of which I do not believe, except that the choice lies with the desire to get sober).

Dr. Laura: Regretting the Divorce
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Old 10-01-2012, 11:13 AM
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I did the year of marriage counseling with an active alcoholic. It actually made things worse. Total waste of time and money.

I took my marriage vows very seriously, but one day it hit me that the "forsaking all others" applied. In my case, alcohol had become his new love, life and woman and I was no longer in that #1 spot.

Like others have said, marriage vows are not a suicide pact.
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Old 10-01-2012, 12:18 PM
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I have a few thoughts . . . I wonder how easy it is to live with each of our sh*t? How easy has it been for my husband to live with mine? I wouldn't say it's been easy and he has stuck right by my side. Maybe I have a more remarkable husband than most, who happens to have a disease? But I doubt it. At the worst of it I could match story for story and probably exceed them. I chose to keep supporting him towards his recovery, even though I needed a time-out. I'm glad that I did. I am one person who truly knows and believes that this is an illness. My boundary though is, after sufficient time went by for him and I to absorb the fact that this is a disease and to educate ourselves, he must be getting some kind of treatment. Which treatment he chooses is up to him. But that also has fully applied to me as well. I take full responsibility for my own growth, my own therapy, my own flaws.

People ask why does an alcoholic lie? Well, HELLO. They're physically addicted to a substance and we've screamed, and yelled and threatened them that if they do it again - we're gone. Along with kids, house, income and all the rest. Why would they tell the truth????

And this -

Would you leave if spouse had cancer?
I would if he kept going to the store to buy more cancer.


How many people here to go the store to buy cigarettes? How many people go to the store to by crummy, unhealthy food and feed it to themselves and their kids? How many people drink diet sodas? How many people eat junk food? How many people are over weight? How many people eat too many animal products? How many people take and buy at the pharmacy too many prescription drugs? How many people don't get sufficient exercise? The list goes on . . .

All of these actions are cancer triggers. Let's not be self-righteous here.

I have a friend whose husband has clinical depression and it's a total slice of hell. Is she staying - yes. I have another friend whose wife, my best friend, is dying from brain cancer. Is he staying, is it HELL - yes. Nobody could drag him away from her. She's smoked pot almost her entire life, new theories say that pot can trigger brain cancer. He's a doctor, he knows that, he loves her - he's there for her.

I have friends whose spouse has one kind of addiction or another, they've worked through them and have long successful marriages. Do we hear from those people on these types of boards? No. Mostly I think you hear more from people who are in crisis. I was here 6-7 years ago at the height of mine. When my relationship stabilized I never came back here, I didn't need it. A relapse brought me here. I don't think we're hearing from many people who are working through these issues.

Are there reasons to leave? You bet there are. For me, I have my boundaries, and I stick to them. But in the end, this man that I married 24 years ago is my husband. As long as we are both working on ourselves, trying to be better people, and yes even when struggling - especially when struggling - I'm here.

Will the day come that I walk about? Who knows? I don't say never. With a divorce rate in this country of over 50%, people are leaving in droves for thousands of reasons. I live it one day at a time.

I don't expect much support here on this forum for my views and I get that. I've had other married people here privately message me who don't see the support for staying. That's OK. This is a good place to vent and get out frustration. I just hope that everyone is very careful how we talk to people who come here afraid and vulnerable, and not just use our own decision to leave as a catalyst to encourage everyone else to. I for one, am happy to be here in my marriage. For many reasons . . .
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Old 10-01-2012, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by WishingWell View Post
I have a few thoughts . . . I wonder how easy it is to live with each of our sh*t? How easy has it been for my husband to live with mine? I wouldn't say it's been easy and he has stuck right by my side. Maybe I have a more remarkable husband than most, who happens to have a disease? But I doubt it. At the worst of it I could match story for story and probably exceed them. I chose to keep supporting him towards his recovery, even though I needed a time-out. I'm glad that I did. I am one person who truly knows and believes that this is an illness. My boundary though is, after sufficient time went by for him and I to absorb the fact that this is a disease and to educate ourselves, he must be getting some kind of treatment. Which treatment he chooses is up to him. But that also has fully applied to me as well. I take full responsibility for my own growth, my own therapy, my own flaws.

People ask why does an alcoholic lie? Well, HELLO. They're physically addicted to a substance and we've screamed, and yelled and threatened them that if they do it again - we're gone. Along with kids, house, income and all the rest. Why would they tell the truth????

And this -

Would you leave if spouse had cancer?
I would if he kept going to the store to buy more cancer.


How many people here to go the store to buy cigarettes? How many people go to the store to by crummy, unhealthy food and feed it to themselves and their kids? How many people drink diet sodas? How many people eat junk food? How many people are over weight? How many people eat too many animal products? How many people take and buy at the pharmacy too many prescription drugs? How many people don't get sufficient exercise? The list goes on . . .

All of these actions are cancer triggers. Let's not be self-righteous here.

I have a friend whose husband has clinical depression and it's a total slice of hell. Is she staying - yes. I have another friend whose wife, my best friend, is dying from brain cancer. Is he staying, is it HELL - yes. Nobody could drag him away from her. She's smoked pot almost her entire life, new theories say that pot can trigger brain cancer. He's a doctor, he knows that, he loves her - he's there for her.

I have friends whose spouse has one kind of addiction or another, they've worked through them and have long successful marriages. Do we hear from those people on these types of boards? No. Mostly I think you hear more from people who are in crisis. I was here 6-7 years ago at the height of mine. When my relationship stabilized I never came back here, I didn't need it. A relapse brought me here. I don't think we're hearing from many people who are working through these issues.

Are there reasons to leave? You bet there are. For me, I have my boundaries, and I stick to them. But in the end, this man that I married 24 years ago is my husband. As long as we are both working on ourselves, trying to be better people, and yes even when struggling - especially when struggling - I'm here.

Will the day come that I walk about? Who knows? I don't say never. With a divorce rate in this country of over 50%, people are leaving in droves for thousands of reasons. I live it one day at a time.

I don't expect much support here on this forum for my views and I get that. I've had other married people here privately message me who don't see the support for staying. That's OK. This is a good place to vent and get out frustration. I just hope that everyone is very careful how we talk to people who come here afraid and vulnerable, and not just use our own decision to leave as a catalyst to encourage everyone else to. I for one, am happy to be here in my marriage. For many reasons . . .
You can say that again! Thank you WishingWell! That's also what I think or maybe hope that almost all of us went through in our thinking about the "with or without you (A)" question. I also want to emphasize the point you made about being very careful with those who are newcomers here, afraid or vulnerable.

I KNOW this is an individual DECISION. I just feel it would be helpful to know:
first, what considerations ought to go into or do others take into account in making that decision - how much time is enough or is that a cop out, how many rehab/treatment runs are enough or does that matter when the A is trying, what factors (x y z) are truly the critical ones like domestic violence, do the kids become THE overarching concern or tipping point, does the DOC and dosage matter, etc.; and

second, isn't it better to get at least a "first opinion" from an independent person who knows more about addiction and MC than we - living in some insanity - do, if not a "second opinion" too; aren't the kids', our families' and our own futures worth it?
Heck, look at all the time and thought posters on the F&FSA forum devote to the estate planning for an addict! Don't our marriages deserve at least that much and not just a pat quip? I respect someone who is too raw, too private or still too confused to share the considerations and struggles that went into taking the divorce detour. A pass is sufficient for that though, I think.

@MadeOfGlass: thanks for quite a thoughtful answer! For me, the religious part is not the major issue, although for some folks it is their principal issue, which I respect. I think you're right that most people, if they want to practice some religious persuasion or flavor, must reconcile their own decisions with its teachings, principles, dogma or beliefs.
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Old 10-01-2012, 01:12 PM
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I have a hard time with this topic. My STBXAH discussed this at length before we married. I really truely planned on marrying for life. My understanding was he felt the same way. He is from Ireland and they just recently legalized divorce. His mother left his alcoholic husband and moved in with relatives and then with us for a while. Never went back but never divorced. We both had very strong views on the subject.

If I really want to think about it, I think he used my moral belief that I held so strongly too against me. I think that once he saw how much he could get away with and really got drinking and I didn't fight him on it, that he saw it as an opportunity to really push those boundaries. It got uglier and uglier and still I did not leave.

When I read the statement here about "I signed a marriage pact and not a suicide pact" it really resonated with me. I realized I would watch him drink himself to death and I would end up dying emotionally along side him. I believe in my GOD, I don't attend church but I have strong beliefs. I believe in a kind loving GOD and I don't think he would want me stay in a marriage where I was being abused mentally and some physically anymore than he would want me to bash myself over the head with a baseball bat. I am supposed to be made in his image, would you treat GOD that way? I married my husband. I created a family with him. He created his own problems and brought on the divorce when he kept feeding his addiction and to this day still will not admit he has a problem.
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Old 10-01-2012, 01:26 PM
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And, BTW, I am by no means suggesting here that there should be some certification, test, religious or other requirement, or "toll booth" that one MUST pass before taking the divorce detour.

The amount of thought and emotion that goes into "which path to take," and the decision of whether or not to get another, expert "view," are also individual choices. But that doesn't mean that "travel guides" or "tour guides" aren't useful in making those choices.
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Old 10-01-2012, 01:36 PM
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My individual decision process broken into simplistic steps for the sake of this thread All in hindsight and based on my perceptions only.

1) Get married despite red flags so plentiful and big they nearly blocked out the sun. This was due to unrecognized codependency issues, denial, and selfishness. This - this is where I had the power to do something different, something better, but we can't unwind the clock.

2) Have children. This resulted in a pretty big (and unexpected) shift in how I viewed family, my priorities, and my expectations.

3) Stay married despite things becoming more difficult. Stay married for the children. Belief that two parent family was the only way to raise children even if I need to sacrifice myself. I actually spent hours reading on-line about the devastation of divorce on children so I would solidify my resolve to stay married. I'm Catholic. We are all about sacrifice, guilt, and marriage vows. Codependency issues were again a driving force.

4) I spent 16 years with my ex, married for 11 years. The last three years were spent crying and praying for him to please do something terrible. Please give me permission to leave. (He isn't a terrible person and thank you world for him not doing a terrible thing.) Then I would fantasize about death. Mine or his - didn't much matter. Codependency issues had me drowning. I hit my bottom. I had long ago given up joy and happiness but I could no longer support him, could no longer deny alcoholism, I could no longer get through the days, could no longer be a loving mother. I had given up hope of things ever getting better. I could only see more of the same and worse. I was so exhausted. I could not emotionally separate from him so I really didn't feel my own emotions - I was feeling his. Codependency again and so while alcoholism was the death of this relationship, codependency was the ground it grew in.

5) I had a very clear picture one day that last summer we were together. My ex was mowing the lawn and one of our little boys was following behind him with a toy mower. The dog was running around. It fit perfectly with that picture I had in my head - the fantasy of my life. I turned my head and the other little boy was at the cooler pretending to drink a beer. I was so stricken with grief at that moment. I did not want any of this for my babies. They deserved more from him and from me. I could not fix him. I decided I had to leave but I needed two more weeks and a very dreadful vacation to get me moving.

6) I left. I left feeling like I was throwing them under the bus to save myself but I was out of options.

7) We did see a counselor but she refused to do marriage counseling until he was in an active recovery program.

So I am now a divorced Catholic woman (which is fine btw as long as I never intend to date while my husband in god's eyes is alive) raising four kids all alone in a single parent home with no family and no friends. That isn't what I wanted for my babies either but sometimes all the choices suck and so we pick the least suckiest of the available options.


So when do we leave and when do we stay? What is the right decision? How much sickness can we withstand? Where are our obligations? Who do we take down with us? We all find our own answers. I think I've made many mistakes when answering those questions and I'm not the only one paying the price.
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Old 10-01-2012, 01:43 PM
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I want to add that my ex did not find a recovery program and so we did not pursue marriage counseling. I divorced him. A year later he checked into another rehab. He spent most of two years in basically an inpatient treatment program for first alcoholism and then dealing with generalized anxiety.

All that angst about leaving. He's apparently sober now. The children are still little. I'm pretty sure I could call up and say come live with me and he would. There is no more angst, ringing of hands, analyzing. The answer is no and the reasoning is one step. I don't want to.

I feel almost as much panic at the thought of getting back together as I once did about getting away.
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Old 10-01-2012, 01:46 PM
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Heartbreaking, powerful and incisive, Thumper! So sorry for your pain. Thank you so much for sharing your heartfelt and deep thoughts.

If you can do it, then there's hope for the rest of us. Wow. Inspirational.
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Old 10-01-2012, 01:57 PM
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I realize this whole post is triggering me big time.
And I think I know why.

I have met so many people here, and in Al-Anon, who are struggling with exactly this -- but from the other side, struggling with giving themselves permission to leave.

My biggest struggle was about whether I had the right to leave. I wanted to leave for 18 years before I did. Because I didn't think I had the right. Because I had made those vows. And the people I talked to about it patted me on the back and said, "it can't be as bad as you think" which made me think that maybe it wasn't. And in the end, I left because my life and my children's were threatened. Until then, I could not give myself permission.

So to me, the suggestion that "maybe we're not doing enough, maybe we're taking the easy way out when we're leaving an addict" gets my hackles up. Because it seems to me it adds to an existing burden -- just like my pastor's well-intended advice did to mine.
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Old 10-01-2012, 02:12 PM
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I totally get that Lillamy. Good point!

If there were express permission (at least in Al-Anon) ALONG WITH a handy "travel guide" and available "tour guides" one could turn to, wouldn't that be liberating?:
Hey me, hey kids, hey family & friends, hey people, I have more than just the legal right (see right here) but I also went through the travel and tour guides specific to a marriage suffering from alcoholism/addiction. After doing so, the answer was clear to me (us). Divorce was not/was the answer. Leaving was/was not the answer.
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Old 10-01-2012, 05:15 PM
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My decision to divorce was a case of "more will be revealed." I knew when I knew and not a moment before.

Take what I say with a grain of salt. Relationships should be about balance, and I struggle to find this balance not only in my intimate relationships...but in friendships and with family also.

I have to preface this with that I am in recovery for an eating disorder and for a long time struggled to make good decisions for myself around food, and continue to struggle around self care which can include food.

I told my boyfriend who became my husband at four months (or less of knowing each other) that I was working my recovery for this, and that my recovery would also have to be my top priority. This stayed true for the two years we dated, and for our entire marriage of five years. This included regular counseling, group counseling at times, body work etc. Most of my disposable income for a time was going towards this support. When I realized alcohol problems were a part of my relationship (two weeks into the marriage) in many ways I blamed myself, and I kept saying to myself....well there was a time that I would have eaten/not eaten over the same thing. I kept saying that once I got myself "fixed" I would work on the relationship....not understanding that there was two being in the relationship.

There was a HUGE difference though. My disorder was not the elephant in the room that was not talked about. I acknowledged my disorder, and though I continue to be far from perfect in my recovery was actively seeking recovery and actively putting energy toward recovery. I was making progress.

I struggled for years about the decision to seperate. I also was raised in a pro-marriage environment and felt that I might let a lot of people down with my divorce, especially myself.

I was trying to control myself in the relationship (which is fair), but I was also trying to control him, his recovery and thus our relationship. That is not mine to control. In essence I was attempting to "control" his sickness....which I have no control over. I was also trying to do recovery for both of us, which is not possible either.

I love the marriage not suicide pact, but also really love the "Let go or be dragged," statement that I have heard on here. I did not know how to let go in any other way but to divorce at the end, and I continue to realize daily that if I had not let go I probably would have ended up in a situation that I might not have been able to get out of.

After seperating I finally was able to put myself and my needs in a relationship first...instead of deferring to him, and his needs.

Until I know that I can obtain a balance of needs and a give and take in a relationship I have no business being in one. I am working on a friendship relationship right now that continues to be out of wack around this....

The best things I did do around this was give myself time to decide. The decision for me came in a split second and I have not looked back on it. So much has fallen into place from that decision but I could not have made it before. Thinking and talking about it helped, but when I knew I knew.

Thanks for all the posts. This is a good topic covering a lot of vantage points.
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Old 10-01-2012, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by WishingWell View Post
I have friends whose spouse has one kind of addiction or another, they've worked through them and have long successful marriages. Do we hear from those people on these types of boards? No.
Wishing Well, with all due respect, there are plenty of people on these boards who have chosen to remain married. Some advocate marriage, some remain married but do not advocate for it when it involves addicts. There is a good percentage of people on this board who were left by their A, sober or not. They may or may not advocate for marriage to an addict.

The bottom line is very few people advocate here for divorce. What I see and hear and know from long-time members is most people believe in not sinking with the ship, however that may look. And sometimes, that means leaving a marriage, temporarily or permanently.
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Old 10-01-2012, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Titanic View Post
The amount of thought and emotion that goes into "which path to take," and the decision of whether or not to get another, expert "view," are also individual choices. But that doesn't mean that "travel guides" or "tour guides" aren't useful in making those choices.
Well, that all sounds good--in theory. But, the honest truth is, divorce was an absolute last resort for me. I didn't want one, didn't even want to consider one, until there were just no other choices left. I tried every which way I could, and finally I just couldn't take it any longer.

It wasn't like I sat down and said, okay I have option A and option B, which one is best? I had exhausted all my other options and I was fast becoming someone I didn't like very much. It was the most agonizing, painful decision I ever had to make. And I wouldn't have made it if I could possibly see another way that didn't involve my destruction.

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Old 10-01-2012, 06:00 PM
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I agree that it is a personal decision. I know that for us living with addictions of any kind, we can doubt our decision making, so I expect that the decision, whatever it is, takes a while to reach.
Here was mine......My RA's addictive behavior was romantic with other women. That's not something I can accept. Period. End of story. Disease or not. We talked about it, argued about it, broke up over it. Were apart, and discussed it at length.
Gave it one more shot. Behavior was the same, so I was done.
But in the end, everyone has to make that choice for themselves. I think sometimes that aspect of it is harder than making the decision itself. Hope that helps.
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Old 10-01-2012, 06:44 PM
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This has been an issue for me as well God is my higher power I remind myself that although God frowns on divorce that God is merciful and knows when we have tried all we can I also know the bible says follow the laws of the land well our land allows divorce.
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Old 10-01-2012, 08:09 PM
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I read thru some of these long winded post (Way too long )
Some of it I understood and some of it didnt even make sense to me

This is how I found peace: (I picked #2)

1> Man Made "Marriage Vow's"
2> What is written in the Bible, about a husband's
duty to the wife. ( I found my answer's in there )
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Old 10-01-2012, 09:14 PM
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I do think that many of us turn to "travel guides" or "tour guides" of sorts (qualified or not) in our search for answers on this. We slowly build a patchwork in our heads, some knowing from the get-go what that quilt is going to look or feel like while others have no idea until it's closer to completion or completed.

For some the patches may come from reading books, information or posts about alcoholism, addictions, relationships, marriage, infidelity, divorce, parenting, psychology, religion or even motivational articles about someone they want to become or something they would like to do which is not somehow possible given their current situation. For others, the quilt may be assembled by talking to old or new friends, parents, siblings, children, neighbor, a Higher Power, a pastor/rabbi/priest, a psychiatrist, psychologist, counselor, social worker, teacher, couple, or even hearing someone speak on TV, a movie or whatnot. For yet others, it's about experiences, occurrences, incidents and patterns.

We take a little of this, add a little of that, sprinkle here and there, flavor with spices, add some color, check the texture, stew over this but simmer on that ... and we end up with our own recipe. I don't think that having great sources to look to for different kinds of recipes and the methods and ingredients that go into cooking them makes one a poor chef. I think that's what can make for a better chef and a better course.
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Old 10-01-2012, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by wantabe View Post
To paraphrase something I read awhile ago that has really made me think about the whole in sickness and in health vow:
Quote:
Would you leave if spouse had cancer?

I would if he kept going to the store to buy more cancer.
Fantastic retort to those who are judgmental of those who choose to leave their A spouses. I don't think anyone should judge another for leaving a relationship with an alcoholic. It's abusive on so many levels - at the very least, emotionally and psychologically.
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