spouse recovery questions
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: new moon road
Posts: 1,545
I should clarify that I think YOU, alone, should see a counselor. I was not referring to your husband. It is you who should go. Take direct action to seek professional advice without involving your husband for now. Get professional advice and then you will take the next step, whatever that is.
Its_me_jen
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Salina, Ks
Posts: 8,547
Yes. I do have experience with this. I will never discourage anyone from taking steps to improve themselves or their marriage whether addiction is involved or not.
I also encourage mry to attend Alanon as well as individual counseling, along with marriage counseling if that's what she wants to do.
I also encourage mry to attend Alanon as well as individual counseling, along with marriage counseling if that's what she wants to do.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Cleveland Ohio
Posts: 133
Mry:
Let's begin with a few bare knuckle truths.
A) your husband is NOT in recovery.
B) 90% of people who go down, go down at step 4, they don't have the guts to take a honest look at themselves. It's easier to drink.
C) " Several days a week, he comes home and sleeps and avoids even speaking to us until the next morning when he leaves for work....................That's because he's drunk.
D) Learning about the disease of alcoholism in an institutional setting (rehabs, counselors, treatment centers, etc) is an entirely different thing than learning how to stay sober in a drinking world. Be very careful of the advice you get here. Let your conscience be your guide.
E) Your husband is POWERLESS. He has no more chance of staying sober than he has of sprouting wings and flying. A big part of the reason is the mind that created the problem is not the mind that can fix it. ....Good Luck
Let's begin with a few bare knuckle truths.
A) your husband is NOT in recovery.
B) 90% of people who go down, go down at step 4, they don't have the guts to take a honest look at themselves. It's easier to drink.
C) " Several days a week, he comes home and sleeps and avoids even speaking to us until the next morning when he leaves for work....................That's because he's drunk.
D) Learning about the disease of alcoholism in an institutional setting (rehabs, counselors, treatment centers, etc) is an entirely different thing than learning how to stay sober in a drinking world. Be very careful of the advice you get here. Let your conscience be your guide.
E) Your husband is POWERLESS. He has no more chance of staying sober than he has of sprouting wings and flying. A big part of the reason is the mind that created the problem is not the mind that can fix it. ....Good Luck
Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: rural Germany
Posts: 311
Originally Posted by cfm 
Mry:
Let's begin with a few bare knuckle truths.
Let's begin with a few bare knuckle truths.
A) your husband is NOT in recovery.
B) 90% of people who go down, go down at step 4, they don't have the guts to take a honest look at themselves. It's easier to drink.
C) " Several days a week, he comes home and sleeps and avoids even speaking to us until the next morning when he leaves for work....................That's because he's drunk.
D) Learning about the disease of alcoholism in an institutional setting (rehabs, counselors, treatment centers, etc) is an entirely different thing than learning how to stay sober in a drinking world. Be very careful of the advice you get here. Let your conscience be your guide.
E) Your husband is POWERLESS. He has no more chance of staying sober than he has of sprouting wings and flying. A big part of the reason is the mind that created the problem is not the mind that can fix it.
In the end, the only way that a drinker can get and stay sober is to choose not to have that next drink over and over again. In other words, only the mind that created the problem can fix it. No other mind can do it for him.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: new moon road
Posts: 1,545
cfm has made some valid points.
1.Yes, your husband acts intoxicated and yes, it could be alcohol. Or other drugs. It could also be major medical depression which creates sleep disturbance (too much or too little), withdrawal from family, and anger. Major depression is always a possible outcome in withdrawing from alcohol and drugs, and suicide is a risk in the early weeks as a result.
What we know here is that-- statistically-- most would bet he is intoxicated. But from here we can't call it.
2. Yes, alcoholics can go down at Step Four, the facing of the damage they've done. In fact, some recovering alcoholics and counselors will not even let an alcoholic get near Step 4 until he has six months sober. (This I learned in a Dr. Drew book). Shame can send them right back to the numbing effect of alcohol and drugs if they aren't ready and don't have the right support.
3. AA is still considered the most effective program for long term-sobriety. Rehab is a safe place to start that sobriety, as it provides structure, education, and medical detox. As most in recovery will tell an alcoholic or addict: Do whatever works.
Your husband's recovery and choice of recovery method is his business. The spouse has to keep hands off. The spouse should not be advisor, nurse, counselor, or cheerleader. The spouse needs to work her own recovery from codependency and respect the alcoholic enough to let him work his recovery from addiction.
4. Yes, the alcoholic mind is the one trying to fix the alcoholic. Both rehab and AA and other sobriety programs give the addict structure and "this is what happens if you...." kind of advice to keep him stable enough to let the alcohol get out of his system and the brain begin, gradually, to regain rational thought. It takes up to two years for that brain to be trustworthy.
Your husband has a desire to get sober, as evidenced by his recent actions, and he may just do it. He has been testing the waters. No one here can predict which way all this will go for him. There are plenty of alcoholics in AA trying to get sober but still drinking or drugging. This does not mean they won't be successful one day. No one can call it.
ALONE you are too weak and confused to deal with what is happening ("our thinking becomes distorted" says Al-Anon literature), which is why it would be great if you can see a clear-headed counselor with experience helping families of addiction. Alone and isolated, the spouse is lost.
1.Yes, your husband acts intoxicated and yes, it could be alcohol. Or other drugs. It could also be major medical depression which creates sleep disturbance (too much or too little), withdrawal from family, and anger. Major depression is always a possible outcome in withdrawing from alcohol and drugs, and suicide is a risk in the early weeks as a result.
What we know here is that-- statistically-- most would bet he is intoxicated. But from here we can't call it.
2. Yes, alcoholics can go down at Step Four, the facing of the damage they've done. In fact, some recovering alcoholics and counselors will not even let an alcoholic get near Step 4 until he has six months sober. (This I learned in a Dr. Drew book). Shame can send them right back to the numbing effect of alcohol and drugs if they aren't ready and don't have the right support.
3. AA is still considered the most effective program for long term-sobriety. Rehab is a safe place to start that sobriety, as it provides structure, education, and medical detox. As most in recovery will tell an alcoholic or addict: Do whatever works.
Your husband's recovery and choice of recovery method is his business. The spouse has to keep hands off. The spouse should not be advisor, nurse, counselor, or cheerleader. The spouse needs to work her own recovery from codependency and respect the alcoholic enough to let him work his recovery from addiction.
4. Yes, the alcoholic mind is the one trying to fix the alcoholic. Both rehab and AA and other sobriety programs give the addict structure and "this is what happens if you...." kind of advice to keep him stable enough to let the alcohol get out of his system and the brain begin, gradually, to regain rational thought. It takes up to two years for that brain to be trustworthy.
Your husband has a desire to get sober, as evidenced by his recent actions, and he may just do it. He has been testing the waters. No one here can predict which way all this will go for him. There are plenty of alcoholics in AA trying to get sober but still drinking or drugging. This does not mean they won't be successful one day. No one can call it.
ALONE you are too weak and confused to deal with what is happening ("our thinking becomes distorted" says Al-Anon literature), which is why it would be great if you can see a clear-headed counselor with experience helping families of addiction. Alone and isolated, the spouse is lost.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 78
madeofglass, he told his father/brothers (his mother is deceased) when he was in his 40's and it was never mentioned again after he told them.
cfm, I do not believe he is drinking, but certainly it's possible. I can see that step 4 is difficult for him and only pray that he is able to do the hard work but after being at this step for a year, I begin to wonder if this is it for him.
EnglishGarden, thank you for the push. I'm looking up counselors in my area.
cfm, I do not believe he is drinking, but certainly it's possible. I can see that step 4 is difficult for him and only pray that he is able to do the hard work but after being at this step for a year, I begin to wonder if this is it for him.
EnglishGarden, thank you for the push. I'm looking up counselors in my area.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 378
I agree a lot here. Individual one-on-one counseling for me in the first years was amazing. She was a therapist at the rehab my husband went to. She knew her stuff. I don't think I could've gotten through what I did without her! She was my rock. Worth every penny.
We are now in couples therapy and again I say I wish we had done this 20 years ago. We've only had 3 session and we can both already see changes. He swore he wouldn't go but he is and now looks 'forward' to it. Well, I'm not pretending that it's easy. It murks up the water but it needs to be stirred up. I see a lot more hope now where I was seeing very little after this relapse.
It's such a journey this thing called marriage . . .
I want to respond to this point > Your husband's recovery and choice of recovery method is his business. The spouse has to keep hands off. The spouse should not be advisor, nurse, counselor, or cheerleader.
Some experts are starting to disagree with this. I'm open to hearing both sides and new thinking. I can attest that over here, that AA model hasn't been very effective, which is why I'm open to learning a new one.
Dr. Meyers methods and book is recommended by HBO and their series on addiction. It is also used for Smart Recovery, he has very impressive credentials, here is some info:
'Get Your Loved One Sober: Alternatives to Nagging, Pleading, and Threatening' by Robert J. Meyers and Brenda L. Wolfe has received the Association of Behavior and Cognitive Therapy Self Help Book Seal of Merit Award. This program is an effort by the Association to educate the general public on the benefits of empirically supported treatment. To earn the ABCT Self-Help Book Seal of Merit, a book must meet the following criteria:
* employ cognitive and/or behavioral principles
* discuss cognitive and/or behavioral principles or theories explicitly in text
* have documented empirical support that lends support for the methods presented
* include no suggestions or methods that are contraindicated by scientific evidence
* present treatment methods that have consistent evidence for their effectiveness (books describing methods without a consistent track record of empirical support, or mixed evidence, would not be eligible)
* be consistent with best practices
Dr. Meyers is the winner of the 2002 Dan Anderson Research Award from the Hazelden Foundation, the 2003 Young Investigator Award from the Research Society on Alcoholism, and 2005 Alumni Achievement Award from the School of Social Work at Southern Illinois University.
Dr. Meyers is an internationally known speaker and trainer who has delivered training in 29 different states in the USA, and in 11 different countries on 4 continents. He has published over 70 scientific articles and papers and co-authored 5 books on addiction treatment, including "Get Your Loved One Sober: Alternatives to Nagging, Pleading and Threatening" and "Motivating Substance Abusers to Enter Treatment: Working with Family Members".
You can read about this method "CRAFT" on HBO, explains it very well!
HBO: Addiction: Treatment: Getting Someone into Treatment: CRAFT: An Alternative to Intervention
I'm going to try this - we have nothing to lose at this point and maybe something wonderful to gain?!
We are now in couples therapy and again I say I wish we had done this 20 years ago. We've only had 3 session and we can both already see changes. He swore he wouldn't go but he is and now looks 'forward' to it. Well, I'm not pretending that it's easy. It murks up the water but it needs to be stirred up. I see a lot more hope now where I was seeing very little after this relapse.
It's such a journey this thing called marriage . . .
I want to respond to this point > Your husband's recovery and choice of recovery method is his business. The spouse has to keep hands off. The spouse should not be advisor, nurse, counselor, or cheerleader.
Some experts are starting to disagree with this. I'm open to hearing both sides and new thinking. I can attest that over here, that AA model hasn't been very effective, which is why I'm open to learning a new one.
Dr. Meyers methods and book is recommended by HBO and their series on addiction. It is also used for Smart Recovery, he has very impressive credentials, here is some info:
'Get Your Loved One Sober: Alternatives to Nagging, Pleading, and Threatening' by Robert J. Meyers and Brenda L. Wolfe has received the Association of Behavior and Cognitive Therapy Self Help Book Seal of Merit Award. This program is an effort by the Association to educate the general public on the benefits of empirically supported treatment. To earn the ABCT Self-Help Book Seal of Merit, a book must meet the following criteria:
* employ cognitive and/or behavioral principles
* discuss cognitive and/or behavioral principles or theories explicitly in text
* have documented empirical support that lends support for the methods presented
* include no suggestions or methods that are contraindicated by scientific evidence
* present treatment methods that have consistent evidence for their effectiveness (books describing methods without a consistent track record of empirical support, or mixed evidence, would not be eligible)
* be consistent with best practices
Dr. Meyers is the winner of the 2002 Dan Anderson Research Award from the Hazelden Foundation, the 2003 Young Investigator Award from the Research Society on Alcoholism, and 2005 Alumni Achievement Award from the School of Social Work at Southern Illinois University.
Dr. Meyers is an internationally known speaker and trainer who has delivered training in 29 different states in the USA, and in 11 different countries on 4 continents. He has published over 70 scientific articles and papers and co-authored 5 books on addiction treatment, including "Get Your Loved One Sober: Alternatives to Nagging, Pleading and Threatening" and "Motivating Substance Abusers to Enter Treatment: Working with Family Members".
You can read about this method "CRAFT" on HBO, explains it very well!
HBO: Addiction: Treatment: Getting Someone into Treatment: CRAFT: An Alternative to Intervention
I'm going to try this - we have nothing to lose at this point and maybe something wonderful to gain?!
Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 378
I just realized that I posted above and no one probably knows what I'm talking about, got threads mixed up. I'm reading a new book that is mentioned above " Get Your Loved One Sober: Alternatives to Nagging, Pleading, and Threatening by Robert J. Meyers". It's an alternative idea for families of those suffering with addiction. I hope it makes some sense what I posted.
BTW - wanted to post the graph on HBO, not sure how. So open that link and read where it says > FIVE THINGS TO KNOW ABOUT CRAFT
** then click on #2 2. More than two-thirds of family members who use CRAFT successfully engage their substance using loved ones in treatment. and read "MORE"
I read most of the book last night and then proceed today to fall right back into my old habits and accomplished doing exactly opposite of what this book teaches. Let me tell you, the results were disastrous. Once again. Will start over tomorrow, breaking old habits is never easy -
BTW - wanted to post the graph on HBO, not sure how. So open that link and read where it says > FIVE THINGS TO KNOW ABOUT CRAFT
** then click on #2 2. More than two-thirds of family members who use CRAFT successfully engage their substance using loved ones in treatment. and read "MORE"
I read most of the book last night and then proceed today to fall right back into my old habits and accomplished doing exactly opposite of what this book teaches. Let me tell you, the results were disastrous. Once again. Will start over tomorrow, breaking old habits is never easy -
Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Portlandia
Posts: 77
Hi mry - this sounds so familiar. My AH also got stuck at step 4 and also slept a lot after his first or second stint at rehab. (This was early on, his disease progressed much further over the years). He relapsed within a few weeks of this behavior. He later told me he slept as much as he could because he was white-knuckling, trying to avoid cravings... Definitely not recovery behavior. But of course, neither was my own behaviour because I focused on my AH's recovery and not my own.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 78
wishingwell, I ordered the book from my library. Thank you.
amooseoncebitmysister, I asked him this morning (after day 4 this week of coming home and sleeping) if he was tired or white knuckling. He said the stress of work is exhausting (but it always is and always will be) and that is why he sleeps so much.
I've asked him to see a dr but he has refused. He believes his behavior is normal and gets angry if anything else is even suggested. In the evening when he wakes up, he talks to himself and seems a little crazy.
Am I enabling him by having my calendar to be sent to his phone? My calendar lists kids' activities and appointments. Or is this just a kindness that helps him to remain involved in their lives at all? After he was a jerk at the parent teacher meeting, I wished I hadn't listed the event on the calendar. I often feel he shows at these things so that people think he is an involved father.
amooseoncebitmysister, I asked him this morning (after day 4 this week of coming home and sleeping) if he was tired or white knuckling. He said the stress of work is exhausting (but it always is and always will be) and that is why he sleeps so much.
I've asked him to see a dr but he has refused. He believes his behavior is normal and gets angry if anything else is even suggested. In the evening when he wakes up, he talks to himself and seems a little crazy.
Am I enabling him by having my calendar to be sent to his phone? My calendar lists kids' activities and appointments. Or is this just a kindness that helps him to remain involved in their lives at all? After he was a jerk at the parent teacher meeting, I wished I hadn't listed the event on the calendar. I often feel he shows at these things so that people think he is an involved father.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,243
Originally Posted by WishingWell
I agree a lot here. Individual one-on-one counseling for me in the first years was amazing. She was a therapist at the rehab my husband went to. She knew her stuff. I don't think I could've gotten through what I did without her! She was my rock. Worth every penny.
We are now in couples therapy and again I say I wish we had done this 20 years ago. We've only had 3 session and we can both already see changes. He swore he wouldn't go but he is and now looks 'forward' to it. Well, I'm not pretending that it's easy. It murks up the water but it needs to be stirred up. I see a lot more hope now where I was seeing very little after this relapse.
It's such a journey this thing called marriage . . .
I want to respond to this point > Your husband's recovery and choice of recovery method is his business. The spouse has to keep hands off. The spouse should not be advisor, nurse, counselor, or cheerleader.
Some experts are starting to disagree with this. I'm open to hearing both sides and new thinking. I can attest that over here, that AA model hasn't been very effective, which is why I'm open to learning a new one.
Dr. Meyers methods and book is recommended by HBO and their series on addiction. It is also used for Smart Recovery, he has very impressive credentials, here is some info:
'Get Your Loved One Sober: Alternatives to Nagging, Pleading, and Threatening' by Robert J. Meyers and Brenda L. Wolfe has received the Association of Behavior and Cognitive Therapy Self Help Book Seal of Merit Award. This program is an effort by the Association to educate the general public on the benefits of empirically supported treatment. To earn the ABCT Self-Help Book Seal of Merit, a book must meet the following criteria:
* employ cognitive and/or behavioral principles
* discuss cognitive and/or behavioral principles or theories explicitly in text
* have documented empirical support that lends support for the methods presented
* include no suggestions or methods that are contraindicated by scientific evidence
* present treatment methods that have consistent evidence for their effectiveness (books describing methods without a consistent track record of empirical support, or mixed evidence, would not be eligible)
* be consistent with best practices
Dr. Meyers is the winner of the 2002 Dan Anderson Research Award from the Hazelden Foundation, the 2003 Young Investigator Award from the Research Society on Alcoholism, and 2005 Alumni Achievement Award from the School of Social Work at Southern Illinois University.
Dr. Meyers is an internationally known speaker and trainer who has delivered training in 29 different states in the USA, and in 11 different countries on 4 continents. He has published over 70 scientific articles and papers and co-authored 5 books on addiction treatment, including "Get Your Loved One Sober: Alternatives to Nagging, Pleading and Threatening" and "Motivating Substance Abusers to Enter Treatment: Working with Family Members".
You can read about this method "CRAFT" on HBO, explains it very well!
HBO: Addiction: Treatment: Getting Someone into Treatment: CRAFT: An Alternative to Intervention
I'm going to try this - we have nothing to lose at this point and maybe something wonderful to gain?!
We are now in couples therapy and again I say I wish we had done this 20 years ago. We've only had 3 session and we can both already see changes. He swore he wouldn't go but he is and now looks 'forward' to it. Well, I'm not pretending that it's easy. It murks up the water but it needs to be stirred up. I see a lot more hope now where I was seeing very little after this relapse.
It's such a journey this thing called marriage . . .
I want to respond to this point > Your husband's recovery and choice of recovery method is his business. The spouse has to keep hands off. The spouse should not be advisor, nurse, counselor, or cheerleader.
Some experts are starting to disagree with this. I'm open to hearing both sides and new thinking. I can attest that over here, that AA model hasn't been very effective, which is why I'm open to learning a new one.
Dr. Meyers methods and book is recommended by HBO and their series on addiction. It is also used for Smart Recovery, he has very impressive credentials, here is some info:
'Get Your Loved One Sober: Alternatives to Nagging, Pleading, and Threatening' by Robert J. Meyers and Brenda L. Wolfe has received the Association of Behavior and Cognitive Therapy Self Help Book Seal of Merit Award. This program is an effort by the Association to educate the general public on the benefits of empirically supported treatment. To earn the ABCT Self-Help Book Seal of Merit, a book must meet the following criteria:
* employ cognitive and/or behavioral principles
* discuss cognitive and/or behavioral principles or theories explicitly in text
* have documented empirical support that lends support for the methods presented
* include no suggestions or methods that are contraindicated by scientific evidence
* present treatment methods that have consistent evidence for their effectiveness (books describing methods without a consistent track record of empirical support, or mixed evidence, would not be eligible)
* be consistent with best practices
Dr. Meyers is the winner of the 2002 Dan Anderson Research Award from the Hazelden Foundation, the 2003 Young Investigator Award from the Research Society on Alcoholism, and 2005 Alumni Achievement Award from the School of Social Work at Southern Illinois University.
Dr. Meyers is an internationally known speaker and trainer who has delivered training in 29 different states in the USA, and in 11 different countries on 4 continents. He has published over 70 scientific articles and papers and co-authored 5 books on addiction treatment, including "Get Your Loved One Sober: Alternatives to Nagging, Pleading and Threatening" and "Motivating Substance Abusers to Enter Treatment: Working with Family Members".
You can read about this method "CRAFT" on HBO, explains it very well!
HBO: Addiction: Treatment: Getting Someone into Treatment: CRAFT: An Alternative to Intervention
I'm going to try this - we have nothing to lose at this point and maybe something wonderful to gain?!
I know you are on a journey similar to my own... thoroughly researching every philosophy, treatment modality, scientific research etc... that might provide the answers... the key... to unlocking the solution to a loved one in addiction.
If you go back and read my posts from years ago you will see that I posted about Debra Jay before anyone knew much about her and Dr. Amen when he was unknown as well. My XA and I contacted Dr. Ameisen a few months after his book was published and tried Baclofen long before anyone knew what it was all about.
Getting my XA into treatment facilities or even going through the motions of recovery was not the obstacle as the battle is within the addict and the battleground is the mind.
Whether through our own heavily researched methods of how to induce the A to move into a recovery mindsight... through "tough love" or slightly different methadology or approach (and the approaches are more similar than different in my opinion) the A does have to fight this battle alone.
My UNIVERSE was centered around getting my A sober for four years... four years! As I look back on the thousands and thousands of hours, gallons of tears, anguish, heartache and tens of thousands of dollars spent I must admit that it changed NOTHING.
Now my XA is an individual and his story is just his story. But as I read so many stories from woman across this world it could be my story! Handsome, bright, talented, funny, sweet beyond belief when sober but if he puts alcohol to his lips he morphs into a crazy, mean stranger... and he always, always, always drinks ... eventually... he drinks.
Only one out of 10 that wants treatment get treatment. Most treatment facilities are for profit and out of reach for the vast majority of alcoholics especially if they have reached bottom and lost everything.
I made sure my XA got treatment... 5 times in 4 years he got a bed in a residential program. 5 times someone else didn't get a bed and trust me I was a force in making sure "MY A" got a bed.
I am not trying to discourage you in any way... we each need to find our path and our own way out of our own addiction to the addict and obsession with seeing our dream come true... the happy sober ending!
After exhausting every avenue... every one on the planet... I finally realize that he had been playing me... not at every moment and at times he did achieve authentic spiritual recovery.
But... he never broke up with alcohol for good. And unless they have that life-changing moment in time, the dark night of the soul or "bottom as it is sometimes called and make that internal decision themselves and climb out of the pit themselves.... well... in my case it was all just a big waste of time.
Now I could fool myself that all of my activities, tears, anguish of the past four years planted "seeds of recovery" but I don't think so...
We split up in February of this year... he went to Vegas and drank for 3 months and put himself in treatment and was sober for 3 months. Relapsed, got a dui and got out of jail, went to another casino and burnt his car up, got arrested and got out last night. I got texts last night that clearly indicate he is drunk.... again.
So... after four years I now completely agree with what my wiser, more experienced sisters on this forum and what they tried to tell me from the beginning.
I know tell other woman who are where I was four years ago to take care of themselves and create their own boundaries of what is acceptable and what is not. Decide what you each of us can live with and what we can't live with. Learn all you can about alcoholism, addiction, treatment modalities, codependency and relationships.
I will say having tried every philosophy of treatment out there from rational recovery, AA, drug therapies etc... it was old fashioned 12 step AA done the old timers way that kept him sober and happy for the longest periods of time.
There is absolutely no doubt that he had the tools and the ability to stay sober the rest of his life through AA. It worked!
He just wasn't willing to never drink again... and many, many alcoholics deep down inside cannot give their first love up...not forever. She is their mistress and true love and her siren's song is one they cannot resist and eventually when they slack up on their recovery... they put the cup of poison to their lips and the nightmare starts up........ all over again.
And that is the part that we cannot control...only they can control that. So focusing on convincing them to quit or enter a program or go to a meeting. That is just geography and the battle is in the mind of the alcoholic and if they aren't ready they are taking up seat or a bed for someone else who MAY have been ready!!!
Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 378
I think the book is really eye-opening and I do believe it is time for new approaches. The old ones are not working. Look at this forum, one divorce after the other. Anger and more anger. I also have known about Jay and Amen for many, many years.
It's not my job to fix my husband, he's a big boy, he can fix himself. But he does have a disease and I accept that. My job is to grow for myself. To become a deeper, wiser, healthier and ultimately more loving human being. If a new idea can help me grow towards that goal I'm all for it.
I also don't think it is healthy or wise to "force" anything. It's not my job to make my husband go to rehab or get him a bed. That's his job. His path is his to walk. As is my own.
This method is not about enabling, it's about changing the conversation. Learning to work with people in our lives differently. This idea doesn't just apply to our spouse but it can apply to children, friends, family. I'm open to learning it and giving it a try! It is showing an exceedingly higher level of success than Alanon.
I have to say, all the work I've done on myself through this time has changed me in ways that I never expected. My own level of happiness is higher and more solid than it's ever been in my life. Because it isn't based on everyone else. It comes from inside. If we can learn to embrace this journey, open our minds and our hearts to grow, learn, evolve - we'll be blessed no matter what our decisions are to stay or go.
It's true that a lot of marriages don't make it. A lot of alcoholics don't make it and we each have to choose out path. But before we walk out the door and end a marriage, or give up on a child, close the relationship with a parent - we might as well open our minds to more than one method. There is new research going on - it would be silly to discount it.
It's not my job to fix my husband, he's a big boy, he can fix himself. But he does have a disease and I accept that. My job is to grow for myself. To become a deeper, wiser, healthier and ultimately more loving human being. If a new idea can help me grow towards that goal I'm all for it.
I also don't think it is healthy or wise to "force" anything. It's not my job to make my husband go to rehab or get him a bed. That's his job. His path is his to walk. As is my own.
This method is not about enabling, it's about changing the conversation. Learning to work with people in our lives differently. This idea doesn't just apply to our spouse but it can apply to children, friends, family. I'm open to learning it and giving it a try! It is showing an exceedingly higher level of success than Alanon.
I have to say, all the work I've done on myself through this time has changed me in ways that I never expected. My own level of happiness is higher and more solid than it's ever been in my life. Because it isn't based on everyone else. It comes from inside. If we can learn to embrace this journey, open our minds and our hearts to grow, learn, evolve - we'll be blessed no matter what our decisions are to stay or go.
It's true that a lot of marriages don't make it. A lot of alcoholics don't make it and we each have to choose out path. But before we walk out the door and end a marriage, or give up on a child, close the relationship with a parent - we might as well open our minds to more than one method. There is new research going on - it would be silly to discount it.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: rural Germany
Posts: 311
Originally Posted by WishingWell
This method is not about enabling, it's about changing the conversation. Learning to work with people in our lives differently. This idea doesn't just apply to our spouse but it can apply to children, friends, family. I'm open to learning it and giving it a try! It is showing an exceedingly higher level of success than Alanon.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 378
HAHAHA - Hyaptia - it is the same! I'm still laughing.
I just want to lunch with a friend who is dealing with her own husband issues, not addiction, but really tough stuff just the same. She's got one foot and four toes out the door. I was telling her about this idea in the book and she said - WHAT, you mean I have to train him like I did the kids? We had a good laugh. But in reality - positive reinforcement works. We had a crazy Terror - our terrier - who just died at 16. Oh my God, he ran us up the flag pole daily for many years. The more he got yelled at, the more punishment - the more he got in trouble. He almost thrived on it. And this book talks about that - you know in a long term relationship there are a lot of psychological, unconscious habits that are formed. Sometimes there is a "feeding", a reward in a way that we get out of arguing and one person always being in "trouble". Both can in a sense get something out of that dynamic. The alcoholic gets to push buttons and get attention and the partner gets to be self-righteous and "right". He talks about changing that dynamic. Removing the attention and not always having to "win" the fight. I almost hate to say how much sense it makes because - I do feel the need (AND WANT TO) in the heat of it prove my points. Interesting - in therapy, he's pointing out the same thing. And talking about triggers . . .
I'll tell you, the ONLY thing that worked with our Terror was positive reinforcement. He lived for getting in trouble, he was assured attention. But take out a treat? That dog was perfectly behaved.
Dog training - here we come. I'm going to try it, so far I've been a spectacular failure. But it's only been a day - I'm going to train myself to react in a new way. Dog training for me . . . too.
Why not? And if it doesn't help life to get better on different levels - nothing loss. But nothing gained if I'm not at least open -
I just want to lunch with a friend who is dealing with her own husband issues, not addiction, but really tough stuff just the same. She's got one foot and four toes out the door. I was telling her about this idea in the book and she said - WHAT, you mean I have to train him like I did the kids? We had a good laugh. But in reality - positive reinforcement works. We had a crazy Terror - our terrier - who just died at 16. Oh my God, he ran us up the flag pole daily for many years. The more he got yelled at, the more punishment - the more he got in trouble. He almost thrived on it. And this book talks about that - you know in a long term relationship there are a lot of psychological, unconscious habits that are formed. Sometimes there is a "feeding", a reward in a way that we get out of arguing and one person always being in "trouble". Both can in a sense get something out of that dynamic. The alcoholic gets to push buttons and get attention and the partner gets to be self-righteous and "right". He talks about changing that dynamic. Removing the attention and not always having to "win" the fight. I almost hate to say how much sense it makes because - I do feel the need (AND WANT TO) in the heat of it prove my points. Interesting - in therapy, he's pointing out the same thing. And talking about triggers . . .
I'll tell you, the ONLY thing that worked with our Terror was positive reinforcement. He lived for getting in trouble, he was assured attention. But take out a treat? That dog was perfectly behaved.
Dog training - here we come. I'm going to try it, so far I've been a spectacular failure. But it's only been a day - I'm going to train myself to react in a new way. Dog training for me . . . too.
Why not? And if it doesn't help life to get better on different levels - nothing loss. But nothing gained if I'm not at least open -
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 78
Originally Posted by cfm
Mry:
Let's begin with a few bare knuckle truths.
A) your husband is NOT in recovery.
B) 90% of people who go down, go down at step 4, they don't have the guts to take a honest look at themselves. It's easier to drink.
C) " Several days a week, he comes home and sleeps and avoids even speaking to us until the next morning when he leaves for work....................That's because he's drunk.
D) Learning about the disease of alcoholism in an institutional setting (rehabs, counselors, treatment centers, etc) is an entirely different thing than learning how to stay sober in a drinking world. Be very careful of the advice you get here. Let your conscience be your guide.
E) Your husband is POWERLESS. He has no more chance of staying sober than he has of sprouting wings and flying. A big part of the reason is the mind that created the problem is not the mind that can fix it. ....Good Luck
Let's begin with a few bare knuckle truths.
A) your husband is NOT in recovery.
B) 90% of people who go down, go down at step 4, they don't have the guts to take a honest look at themselves. It's easier to drink.
C) " Several days a week, he comes home and sleeps and avoids even speaking to us until the next morning when he leaves for work....................That's because he's drunk.
D) Learning about the disease of alcoholism in an institutional setting (rehabs, counselors, treatment centers, etc) is an entirely different thing than learning how to stay sober in a drinking world. Be very careful of the advice you get here. Let your conscience be your guide.
E) Your husband is POWERLESS. He has no more chance of staying sober than he has of sprouting wings and flying. A big part of the reason is the mind that created the problem is not the mind that can fix it. ....Good Luck
I"m scared. I'm going to my first Alanon meeting tonight.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,452
So very sorry to hear of your husband's relapse. It is so hard to have your hopes dashed.
Glad you are going to Alanon tonight. Remember, all you have to do is "the next right step". You don't have to solve it all today.
I hope you find something special to do for yourself to take care of YOU. You deserve it. We're all here with you and for you. Post whenever you need to.
ShootingStar1
(formerly BothSidesNow)
Glad you are going to Alanon tonight. Remember, all you have to do is "the next right step". You don't have to solve it all today.
I hope you find something special to do for yourself to take care of YOU. You deserve it. We're all here with you and for you. Post whenever you need to.
ShootingStar1
(formerly BothSidesNow)
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 78
shooting star, thank you for reminding me that I only have to do the next step. I've been worrying about asking him to leave and feeling the acid pour into my stomach.
Titanic, thanks for asking. It's heartbreaking to hear all of the stories at the meeting. I did find out that there is a day meeting with childcare so I will try that next. I need a place to talk - I only have my sister and she has her own problems so I don't want to bury her in mine.
My AH came home this morning for clothes and told me that he and his father discussed that I am the cause of his drinking. I told him that if he believes that I cause his drinking, then for his own recovery, he needs to live elsewhere.
Titanic, thanks for asking. It's heartbreaking to hear all of the stories at the meeting. I did find out that there is a day meeting with childcare so I will try that next. I need a place to talk - I only have my sister and she has her own problems so I don't want to bury her in mine.
My AH came home this morning for clothes and told me that he and his father discussed that I am the cause of his drinking. I told him that if he believes that I cause his drinking, then for his own recovery, he needs to live elsewhere.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 837
I'm so sorry mry that you're going through this and this stage is called the dance. He will say all kinds of things to you to take the focus off himself and manipulate you and here's where you need to learn to put into place boundaries that are good for you and the kids. Your first thoughts need to be on you and not on him. Keep going to Al-Anon and you'll get great support there and here as well.
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