Is it the A, the Addiction or the Relationship?
Iceberg Ahead!
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Join Date: Sep 2012
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Is it the A, the Addiction or the Relationship?
When the A (at times) has blamed the relationship and you, and the A attributes that blame to a period of time when the A was socially drinking or barely using or sober, and during that period the A was emotionally concealing, not sharing or withdrawn, it makes it hard on you.
Sorting out whether there was a two-sided relationship in the first place. Whether the A had addictive personality issues or thinking below the surface that prevented any truly intimate relationship. Whether the A just couldn't deal with any emotional or relationship issues because the A doesn't do "uncomfortable." Whether taking the easy way out (including drinking & using, or leaving & escaping) is just what As do. Whether the A just couldn't make good decisions for preserving the relationship. Whether cheating was or is a "slip," a jailbar saw, a "good time" or "what feels good." Whether the A just blames those things on the drinking and using.
Whether the A blames the problems on you, the relationship or the addiction, as is convenient or marketable. Whether it was the A, the addiction or the relationship (or more than one), and what about it if so.
Oblivious or all over the place on this. Please give me some guidance so I steer away from the iceberg!
Sorting out whether there was a two-sided relationship in the first place. Whether the A had addictive personality issues or thinking below the surface that prevented any truly intimate relationship. Whether the A just couldn't deal with any emotional or relationship issues because the A doesn't do "uncomfortable." Whether taking the easy way out (including drinking & using, or leaving & escaping) is just what As do. Whether the A just couldn't make good decisions for preserving the relationship. Whether cheating was or is a "slip," a jailbar saw, a "good time" or "what feels good." Whether the A just blames those things on the drinking and using.
Whether the A blames the problems on you, the relationship or the addiction, as is convenient or marketable. Whether it was the A, the addiction or the relationship (or more than one), and what about it if so.
Oblivious or all over the place on this. Please give me some guidance so I steer away from the iceberg!
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
For guidance on this, read Dr. Garrett's article found here:
Addiction, Lies and Relationships
Also helpful to me was Abraham Twerski's book, "Addictive Thinking." You can get it on Amazon.
Another one folks like that is from the same series as Twerski's book is "The Addictive Personality." I've not read it but folks here say it was helpful.
Addiction, Lies and Relationships
Also helpful to me was Abraham Twerski's book, "Addictive Thinking." You can get it on Amazon.
Another one folks like that is from the same series as Twerski's book is "The Addictive Personality." I've not read it but folks here say it was helpful.
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 16,246
Dear Titanic, are you questioning whether he was the right "fit" for you in the very beginning? I think that is a valid question to ask (for any of us), but I am wondering if that is what you are trying to sort out?
dandylion
dandylion
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 119
Wow, it's like you're in my head this morning. I am struggling with the same questions.
My A has been sober for 5 months now. We were together 3 years and the whole time he was kind of the typical A....lying, going MIA, always broke, missing work ect....but NEVER verbally or physically abusive.
Lastnight I was trying to talk to him, not about anything important, just chat, and it was like I wasn't even in the room. But this is typical. He does this quite often, if he's watching TV he can't hear me. But GOD FORBID if I ever do that to him.
So this morning I'm all over the place. For the first three years I made excuses as to why I wasn't getting what I want out of the relationship, he was an alcoholic and incapable of a truely intimate relationship. Then for the last 5 months I've excused it because he's working on sobriety, small steps I can't expect him to change all at once. The last two months he's been working 80 + hours a week, so obviously he doesn't have time to cater to me.
I work full time, have a teen and a sister in detox and a mother dying of cancer whom we live with to care for. Now that he's working non stop I've done EVERYTING, he basically works, eats, sleeps and poops. This weekend I picked up our new furniture and moved it into the house with the help of my bro, did everyones laundry, went to the bank for him, brought him lunch to the work site both days, got a list of his supplies from the store, brought his surround sound in from the garage to go with the new furniture, unpacked and washed all his winter clothes, chauffered my kid around, waited on my mother, and he couldn't even bother to freaking listen to me for 5 minutes, or at least fein interest and nod and grunt? WTF?
I was going to start my own thread this morning. But I didn't because I know what everyone here would say, it's what I would say to someone else. Only I know what is acceptable to me. I either accept what he has to offer me RIGHT NOW with no expectations, or I don't. Sounds easy huh?
My A has been sober for 5 months now. We were together 3 years and the whole time he was kind of the typical A....lying, going MIA, always broke, missing work ect....but NEVER verbally or physically abusive.
Lastnight I was trying to talk to him, not about anything important, just chat, and it was like I wasn't even in the room. But this is typical. He does this quite often, if he's watching TV he can't hear me. But GOD FORBID if I ever do that to him.
So this morning I'm all over the place. For the first three years I made excuses as to why I wasn't getting what I want out of the relationship, he was an alcoholic and incapable of a truely intimate relationship. Then for the last 5 months I've excused it because he's working on sobriety, small steps I can't expect him to change all at once. The last two months he's been working 80 + hours a week, so obviously he doesn't have time to cater to me.
I work full time, have a teen and a sister in detox and a mother dying of cancer whom we live with to care for. Now that he's working non stop I've done EVERYTING, he basically works, eats, sleeps and poops. This weekend I picked up our new furniture and moved it into the house with the help of my bro, did everyones laundry, went to the bank for him, brought him lunch to the work site both days, got a list of his supplies from the store, brought his surround sound in from the garage to go with the new furniture, unpacked and washed all his winter clothes, chauffered my kid around, waited on my mother, and he couldn't even bother to freaking listen to me for 5 minutes, or at least fein interest and nod and grunt? WTF?
I was going to start my own thread this morning. But I didn't because I know what everyone here would say, it's what I would say to someone else. Only I know what is acceptable to me. I either accept what he has to offer me RIGHT NOW with no expectations, or I don't. Sounds easy huh?
Iceberg Ahead!
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Out at Sea
Posts: 1,177
Dandylion: Thanks for the question. The "fit" was right not just to us but to wise family and friends. The first 3-4 years were great, it seemed to me.
Whether she was a shiny destination or an iceberg ready to slice my innards is another question. I also am looking at my part - was Titanic too big to fail, did it miss the iceberg alert or just ignore it, was it going too fast on a calm evening at sea, was it just doing its own thing, was the lookout on top of it, and then were there enough lifeboats and safety nets in place.
Or was it just destined to happen regardless, because of the A or Addiction? Is Titanic or the relationship with the iceberg freed from blame because it's all about the iceberg?
Womaninprogress: She's gone. The two cheaters and As are together; they met in rehab. Both have since relapsed repeatedly and both are supposedly in early recovery again.
Whether she was a shiny destination or an iceberg ready to slice my innards is another question. I also am looking at my part - was Titanic too big to fail, did it miss the iceberg alert or just ignore it, was it going too fast on a calm evening at sea, was it just doing its own thing, was the lookout on top of it, and then were there enough lifeboats and safety nets in place.
Or was it just destined to happen regardless, because of the A or Addiction? Is Titanic or the relationship with the iceberg freed from blame because it's all about the iceberg?
Womaninprogress: She's gone. The two cheaters and As are together; they met in rehab. Both have since relapsed repeatedly and both are supposedly in early recovery again.
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 43
Exactly how I'm feeling and what I'm struggling with. Thank you. My wife got out of rehab and went to live with her dad in Reno for some unknown amount of time. She's been gone for over a week and I haven't heard from her, except for two texts, one of which saying she would call me later, but didn't. I don't know if she's still sober, I don't know anything. She clearly blames me and the relationship, but I don't know why. I don't know if she's truly working on herself and needs space to do so, or if she needs/wants space to feed her addiction without me around. Still dealing with the lies and hurt from a distance that I was when she was here and drinking.
I too constantly wonder if this ever really was a two-sided relationship, or if it was all just a mirage. I like to think it was good at times, especially when she was sober for 8 months, but who knows. My heart goes out to you and everyone on this site...although we're supposed to be working on ourselves, it's hard not to dwell on what could/should have been only to realize it may have never been possible.
I too constantly wonder if this ever really was a two-sided relationship, or if it was all just a mirage. I like to think it was good at times, especially when she was sober for 8 months, but who knows. My heart goes out to you and everyone on this site...although we're supposed to be working on ourselves, it's hard not to dwell on what could/should have been only to realize it may have never been possible.
Iceberg Ahead!
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Originally Posted by 6901 
My heart goes out to you and everyone on this site...although we're supposed to be working on ourselves, it's hard not to dwell on what could/should have been only to realize it may have never been possible.
And, if so, to learn what we can do or change so we don't steer into another iceberg on the next voyage - as the maiden voyage ended at the bottom of a profound, icy and lonely ocean.
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Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,295
Titanic--Maybe you are overthinking this?
Cut your losses!
Let it go!
Let her go in your heart...
Neitzsche--stare into the abyss too long and it stares back at you?
For those who walk out after gazing into the abyss of life with an alcoholic, they leave the abyss behind them. To stay and continue to stare into the abyss, you become one with the dysfunction in your own right, which is self-defeating. That would be to fall into the rabbit hole, and that hole is the abyss staring back at you.
You don't need to punish yourself for having had a life with an alcoholic any longer. Give yourself that well deserved freedom.
There are many questions in life that we will never get the answers to. That can leave us with dissatisfaction...or...we can choose to accept that there are unanswered questions in life, and simply go forth with the adventure...?
So much easier said than done, I know, I still stare into the abyss myself daily...but the healthy outsider, objective person in myself reads your post and asks--Why are you looking into the abyss when the path to the light is outside of it?
You want answers. Dammit...I want answers. I want to be validated, vindicated...ain't gonna happen.
Cut your losses!
Let it go!
Let her go in your heart...
Neitzsche--stare into the abyss too long and it stares back at you?
For those who walk out after gazing into the abyss of life with an alcoholic, they leave the abyss behind them. To stay and continue to stare into the abyss, you become one with the dysfunction in your own right, which is self-defeating. That would be to fall into the rabbit hole, and that hole is the abyss staring back at you.
You don't need to punish yourself for having had a life with an alcoholic any longer. Give yourself that well deserved freedom.
There are many questions in life that we will never get the answers to. That can leave us with dissatisfaction...or...we can choose to accept that there are unanswered questions in life, and simply go forth with the adventure...?
So much easier said than done, I know, I still stare into the abyss myself daily...but the healthy outsider, objective person in myself reads your post and asks--Why are you looking into the abyss when the path to the light is outside of it?
You want answers. Dammit...I want answers. I want to be validated, vindicated...ain't gonna happen.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,443
For me personally I can see where I myself brought a lot of dysfunction into my marriage. We were a good fit at first. We were each wounded or damaged people and our jagged edges fit together comfortably. It felt good. I think it was all *real*.
As time goes on alcoholism progresses, life gets bigger and things that were once workable (like ice cubes) become immovable and dangerous - like icebergs. I changed, my expectations changed - his did not.
I'll never know for sure but my theory (for myself only) is that had addiction never been present in our lives we would still have had some tough times. Not insurmountable though. The thing is - addiction removes the possibility of working on it. Addiction is the A's partner and that is where they put their devotion and loyalty. There is no way to fix the relationship because it takes two people making it their priority. Active addicts just can't do that - by the very definition of addiction.
So I forgave myself. I'm 100% sure my behavior was at times unhealthy and caused him emotional pain. I'm sure he can point out a number of things that make *me* toxic. I accept that, believe that, own that. I'm working on it. Maybe it is less traumatic for me to see it this way because I suspect that I myself had/have more trouble with intimacy then my ex.
As time goes on alcoholism progresses, life gets bigger and things that were once workable (like ice cubes) become immovable and dangerous - like icebergs. I changed, my expectations changed - his did not.
I'll never know for sure but my theory (for myself only) is that had addiction never been present in our lives we would still have had some tough times. Not insurmountable though. The thing is - addiction removes the possibility of working on it. Addiction is the A's partner and that is where they put their devotion and loyalty. There is no way to fix the relationship because it takes two people making it their priority. Active addicts just can't do that - by the very definition of addiction.
So I forgave myself. I'm 100% sure my behavior was at times unhealthy and caused him emotional pain. I'm sure he can point out a number of things that make *me* toxic. I accept that, believe that, own that. I'm working on it. Maybe it is less traumatic for me to see it this way because I suspect that I myself had/have more trouble with intimacy then my ex.
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 4,719
Originally Posted by Thumper
I'll never know for sure but my theory (for myself only) is that had addiction never been present in our lives we would still have had some tough times. Not insurmountable though. The thing is - addiction removes the possibility of working on it. Addiction is the A's partner and that is where they put their devotion and loyalty. There is no way to fix the relationship because it takes two people making it their priority. Active addicts just can't do that - by the very definition of addiction.
That said, even after achieving sobriety, we were unable to make anything work. We were on two completely different planes of reality - to the point that our interpretations of events and conversations didn't even sync. It was simply a bad match, period. I've racked my brain to pinpoint how that happened, but honestly, in the end it doesn't matter how or why. It just is.
Sometimes we win some, and sometimes we lose some.
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 183
Originally Posted by Thumper
For me personally I can see where I myself brought a lot of dysfunction into my marriage. We were a good fit at first. We were each wounded or damaged people and our jagged edges fit together comfortably. It felt good. I think it was all *real*.
As time goes on alcoholism progresses, life gets bigger and things that were once workable (like ice cubes) become immovable and dangerous - like icebergs. I changed, my expectations changed - his did not.
I'll never know for sure but my theory (for myself only) is that had addiction never been present in our lives we would still have had some tough times. Not insurmountable though. The thing is - addiction removes the possibility of working on it. Addiction is the A's partner and that is where they put their devotion and loyalty. There is no way to fix the relationship because it takes two people making it their priority. Active addicts just can't do that - by the very definition of addiction.
So I forgave myself. I'm 100% sure my behavior was at times unhealthy and caused him emotional pain. I'm sure he can point out a number of things that make *me* toxic. I accept that, believe that, own that. I'm working on it. Maybe it is less traumatic for me to see it this way because I suspect that I myself had/have more trouble with intimacy then my ex.
As time goes on alcoholism progresses, life gets bigger and things that were once workable (like ice cubes) become immovable and dangerous - like icebergs. I changed, my expectations changed - his did not.
I'll never know for sure but my theory (for myself only) is that had addiction never been present in our lives we would still have had some tough times. Not insurmountable though. The thing is - addiction removes the possibility of working on it. Addiction is the A's partner and that is where they put their devotion and loyalty. There is no way to fix the relationship because it takes two people making it their priority. Active addicts just can't do that - by the very definition of addiction.
So I forgave myself. I'm 100% sure my behavior was at times unhealthy and caused him emotional pain. I'm sure he can point out a number of things that make *me* toxic. I accept that, believe that, own that. I'm working on it. Maybe it is less traumatic for me to see it this way because I suspect that I myself had/have more trouble with intimacy then my ex.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,295
Terrific analogy--ice cubes became icebergs!
We got crazier and crazier...we got sicker and sicker. His drinking increased and then increased some more, until I was very afraid to stay, not because of physical harm, but because of insanity.
I kept asking myself, how can we love each other so much, yet we are so toxic to each other? Is there really a point at which two people who love each other must get away from each other?
Here comes the painful answer--Yes.
More will be revealed when we are separated. That saying seems to fit right now...this separation, whether permanent or not, will reveal things that being together couldn't.
We got crazier and crazier...we got sicker and sicker. His drinking increased and then increased some more, until I was very afraid to stay, not because of physical harm, but because of insanity.
I kept asking myself, how can we love each other so much, yet we are so toxic to each other? Is there really a point at which two people who love each other must get away from each other?
Here comes the painful answer--Yes.
More will be revealed when we are separated. That saying seems to fit right now...this separation, whether permanent or not, will reveal things that being together couldn't.
Iceberg Ahead!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Out at Sea
Posts: 1,177
Originally Posted by MadeOfGlass
Cut your losses! Let it go! ...
There are many questions in life that we will never get the answers to. That can leave us with dissatisfaction...or...we can choose to accept that there are unanswered questions in life, and simply go forth with the adventure...? ...
You want answers. Dammit...I want answers. I want to be validated, vindicated...ain't gonna happen.
There are many questions in life that we will never get the answers to. That can leave us with dissatisfaction...or...we can choose to accept that there are unanswered questions in life, and simply go forth with the adventure...? ...
You want answers. Dammit...I want answers. I want to be validated, vindicated...ain't gonna happen.
Originally Posted by Thumper
We were a good fit at first. We were each wounded or damaged people and our jagged edges fit together comfortably. It felt good. I think it was all *real*.
As time goes on alcoholism progresses, life gets bigger and things that were once workable - like ice cubes - become immovable and dangerous - like icebergs. ...
I'll never know for sure but my theory (for myself only) is that had addiction never been present in our lives we would still have had some tough times. Not insurmountable though. The thing is - addiction removes the possibility of working on it. Addiction is the A's partner and that is where they put their devotion and loyalty. There is no way to fix the relationship because it takes two people making it their priority. Active addicts just can't do that - by the very definition of addiction.
So I forgave myself.
As time goes on alcoholism progresses, life gets bigger and things that were once workable - like ice cubes - become immovable and dangerous - like icebergs. ...
I'll never know for sure but my theory (for myself only) is that had addiction never been present in our lives we would still have had some tough times. Not insurmountable though. The thing is - addiction removes the possibility of working on it. Addiction is the A's partner and that is where they put their devotion and loyalty. There is no way to fix the relationship because it takes two people making it their priority. Active addicts just can't do that - by the very definition of addiction.
So I forgave myself.
Originally Posted by Tuffgirl
We were on two completely different planes of reality - to the point that our interpretations of events and conversations didn't even sync. ... I've racked my brain to pinpoint how that happened, but honestly, in the end it doesn't matter how or why. It just is.
Sometimes we win some, and sometimes we lose some.
Sometimes we win some, and sometimes we lose some.
Originally Posted by owathu
I by no means was perfect, and I have had my moments. Had he not been an alcoholic, I might not have been so high strung so often ... and we most likely would have not had most of the issues in our relationship. ... But, I have to look at it as it is, not what it was. It is not a good marriage and it is not a partnership [anymore]. ... That is what I am dealing with right now. Good post.
Terrific responses all! Must let them simmer along with all the forgiveness and other responses of this last 24 hours ...
More will be revealed, no doubt.
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