seek

In my mind, there has been a "breach of contract."

I have a belief that if you love and care for a child, in return, that child will grow up to embrace and live concepts of health and well-being.

In my mind, if a child is nurtured and shown love, they will, in turn, value those traits, therefore if they stumble onto another path that is not one that leads to health and well-being, they will modify their behaviors and "correct" their course. To do otherwise, spits in the face of those who so lovingly cared for them . . .

I "know" these expectations are not helpful . . . just sharing what goes on in my head.

It doesn't help that I also believe in karma - and that the person who is acting out or hurting others is also hurting themselves . . .that no good can come from hurting yourself or others. These are my core beliefs . . .in Buddhism there are precepts of Right Intention, Right Action, Right Thought, Right Livelihood and some more that I can't think of at the moment . . .in other words, there are "correct" ways to be and do things. In Christianity, there is "The Golden Rule" (I believe that is derived from Christianity . . .) . . .and if you choose to live your life not caring how others are impacted, it is not good for anyone . . .

These beliefs are very central to my life.

How do those of you who also "believe" in such concepts rationalize your loved ones actions as not having anything to do with you or not impacting your happiness or unhappiness?

laurie6781

For me, it was not until I had the 'light bulb' moment, sitting on the concrete bumper next to my car at the back of the Hollywood Bowl Park parking lot and I felt like the alcohol was coming out of every pore in my body as fast as I drank it in, that I knew I was dieing and I knew if I tried to quit I would die but I WANTED TO DIE SOBER.

You see it wasn't until I had been in recovery for a while that I started reading all I could find about addiction. I came to find out that yes, the alcohol and drugs had literally 're-wired' my brain. I came to learn that I became 'programed' by the alcohol and drugs, and not only did I need it physically but I needed it 'mentally' to keep the 'demons' at bay.

Now, once I did find recovery, after literally dieing in the ER, the 'teachings' of my earlier days came back into being slowly, very slowly. I too believe in Karma and let me tell you, that my first 2 to 3 years in recovery it was NOT 'Happy, Joyous and Free' but filled with lots and lots of 'bad karma' coming back to me.

However, during that same 2 to 3 years I had started putting out 'good karma' and eventually that too started to come back to me and helped to validate those teachings of my early years.

What your grandson is doing, he is NOT DOING to or at you, he is doing the things he is doing because 'demon alcohol' has totally taken over his body and mind. His primary mode of operation is:

How much is left? How do I get more? How do I get money to get more?

And God help anyone that gets in his way!

(((((Seek)))))

Please stop obsessing about him. Give him to his God. Ask your God and his to watch over him and guide him.

I realize even more how I had to give my A over to HP. I was 3 years sober when I was strongly advised by my AA sponsor to attend Alanon and get an Alanon sponsor who preferably was also a 'double winner' (one who uses AA for their alcoholism and Alanon for their codependency issues). I did as advised because I was married to a Sober Alcoholic who decided to change his addiction and became a gambler. He got the same kind of 'high' from 'winning' that he used to get from the alcohol, he just changed addictions.

Now in these many years that I have 'sponsored' both folks in AA and folks in Alanon, I have seen the newcomer start to grow and change, relearn their core 'beliefs and teachings' and blossom like a beautiful flower.

It is the most awesome thing to watch a person grow and blossom and become an active productive member of society and once again become a 'loving' family member. It is really a beautiful sight to see. It is also very gratifying to me to realize that I really had NOTHING to do with other than share my own story and show by my actions, not my words how I bnow live my life.

I learned to change my expectations. I have to 'validate' myself. I have to love myself. Then when someone, be it a family member or not, shows me respect and love makes their contribution to my own well being much more precious.

As long as I believe, in my heart, that I did the best job I could do (teaching my children about life, manners, respect, etc) then it is up to the child and their HP to help them live the best life they can. Those that have erred, taken the wrong road for however long, I believe (I have to for my own sanity) that someday they will get back on the proper path.

I can believe it, because I have seen in my 31+ years in recovery so so many do just exactly that!!!! Not necessarily in my time, NO never in my time frame, lol but in HP's time frame.

Please, please STOP obsessing over your grandson, and work on you. Once you reach a form of 'acceptance' about your grandson, and also accept that you did your best, you will become 'calmer' on your insides. Your grandson still has some things to learn and if and when his HP decides he has leaned what is needed, he will get his 'light bulb' moment.

J M H O

if you would like to talk, please PM me.

Love and hugs,

WishingWell

Laura, I so appreciate you sharing on this forum!

I've found so much knowledge and such a deeper understanding of addiction by getting off of this forum and reading the ones were people, who are actually addicted, are talking.

We're here to learn from each other and I applaud your openness to share your struggle. Your words and your experience REALLY helps me, they remind me of my healthy path. Thank you!

seek

Thank you for sharing some of your story and experiences.

I thought it was not considered helpful to tell someone else what to do or to take their inventory (re: your advice for me to "stop obsessing about my grandson" and to work on me). The last part is kind of ironic, as I have done a lot of work on myself and am a work in progress . . . have tried many, many paths, many healing modalities . . . I am "doing the best I can," and really don't appreciate having my inventory taken.

I did appreciate hearing you describe how it was for you - so thank you.

Ann

With all due respect, I believe you are completely mistaken.

I don't have to rationalize anything. My son was given love and a good home, nurturing, encouragement and opportunity.

He chose drugs. That choice has nothing to do with how we raised him and my choice to let go before his disease killed me has nothing to do with how much I love him or how good a mother I am.

To insinuate otherwise is an insult to me and all mothers of addicts here.

seek

Not sure how MY beliefs can insult you - I didn't say anything about anyone else or their beliefs - just sharing MY beliefs . . . I am honestly happy for you and others who have ways of seeing this that causes you less pain . . .the only reason I shared was to illustrate what MY thinking on the subject is . . .I still don't see how that says anything about anyone else.

I "assume" that most mothers love and nurture their children - and when the kids go astray there are *reasons* that are, so far, unfathomable to me.

Learn2Live

By finally realizing how I was just as self-centered and self-absorbed as the alcoholic and by accepting that my thinking I knew what was best for anyone but myself was evidence of this. By coming to terms with the fact that my beliefs that another's behavior was somehow a reflection on me was grossly immature, and by accepting that I needed to grow the hell up. By really working hard to accept that I am not The Center of The Universe.

Seren

I'm sorry that you still struggle with the reality of the life your grandson has chosen. I do understand that desire to just 'shake some sense' into an addicted young person. I certainly wanted to do so on occasion with my stepson.

I suppose what I don't understand is the mindset that if I love and even raise a young person, it means that he is obliged by some contract to lead the life I want him to lead, to behave the way I want him to behave, to fulfill what I see as his potential.

I don't believe that children come into this world with a job--to save a marriage, to become what I could not, to match a dream I have always had in my head for them. Placing my expectations, my hopes, and my dreams on my stepson is, to me, not allowing him the dignity as an adult of free will to live his life as HE sees fit. Then his life would be all about me.....and it isn't my life.

I realize that I will also never really understand how you feel because I have no children of my own. I do hope that you will find peace with this reality in your own way and in your own time.

seek

I must be living in a parallel universe, for sure. If parents or grandparents spend "x" amount of years teaching values, caring, instructing, etc., and for some reason the child chooses a path that is destructive, it would stand to reason that that would be hurtful and disappointing . . .not in the natural order.

But from the responses on this thread, it appears that some people raise children and have no expectations of health or well-being or are somehow not impacted by the person's destructiveness . . .this is what I was asking . . . those of you that have gone on to lead happy lives despite your progeny's destructive choices . . .what did you tell yourselves? What world view do you have where you apparently flipped a switch from being concerned with their welfare to not having their ill health affect you?

The question seems to have hit a nerve, but I am not sure why.

If you have risen above the problems caused by your child, I was just curious what kinds of things you told yourself . . .what your beliefs were.

But I have no interest in stirring up another's pain . . .just trying to come to terms with my own.

seek

This is very rude and passive-aggressive.

I quoted the Buddhist precepts about "right intention," "right action," etc. Are you saying the entire religion, along with the Golden rule is misguided?

Learn2Live

I didn't say anything about religion. How am I being rude? Or passive-aggressive by sharing with you things I realized, accepted, and told myself when I found myself thinking the way you describe?

Who is the one being rude on this thread? You really need to take a good, long look at yourself, Seek. You are rude to me, and you are being rude to my friends on this forum.

ShootingStar1

The generational chain of life, from great grandparents, to grandparents, to parents, to child is important, and you feel this linkage from one generation to the next very deeply.

I can't help but think, however, that we are born alone and we die alone, and God has given each of us our own life to live out on our own terms.

It might be useful to sort out what can be passed down a generational chain, and what cannot. If you let go of your requirements that a child be beholden to his elders because they cared for him, you might find freedom from the pain, guilt and disappointment that you couldn't make your grandchild do what you thought he ought to, be what you thought he should be.

In dealing with an alcoholic family member, I am finding that so much is stripped away from us, and admitting that I do not have any power over my AH's choices is very humbling. I am finding that it is also very freeing. Not freedom from loss, because there is so much of that. More like freedom from the responsibility to impose my expectations on my alcoholic. If I can't do that, and I can't, then I must let go over and over again and free that energy toward my own path forward.

BothSidesNow

allforcnm

I do not interpret Seeks statement regarding HER beliefs to mean anything close to what you have implied here. In fact, what I read from her comments are so far removed from what you are accusing her of; Im puzzled by your response. Clearly this is a testament that we all do not think alike or have the same sensitivities.

By the same token, I agree with Seek…. It is not appropriate for people to make statements telling someone that they are obsessed, or that they need to do something specific to cure themselves, their loved one.

What I appreciate from people is when they tell me their story; what worked for them. And although I appreciate that generosity in sharing; I assume they realize under no obligation to apply that to my own life. I hate to be the bearer of bad news; but what works for one does not always work for another.

WishingWell

It's not a kid's job to be what the parents or grandparents expect - as much as we wish it were. We are all here for different reasons, as hard as that fact is - this is his/her path. Not ours.

I also think, and I don't want this to come across wrong so bear with me, that we all have to look at ourselves and get our eyes and focus off of what someone else is doing wrong. I would feel under a microscope with this much pressure to be . . . the image of what someone else expects. Especially if it is coming from a parent or grandparent.

If we can accept someone for exactly where they are without so much expectation - it goes a long way. It's normal to worry but that won't fix someone. People pull away and rebel when we keep letting them know how badly they are letting us down. It is very hard to watch a loved one falter into addiction - but detachment, with love, is crucial for their growth and for our own growth.

Seren

It is extraordinarily painful to watch a child or grandchild that you love be so destructive.

I grieve that a charming, funny, lovable young man (my stepson) has made such poor decisions--has nearly killed himself on at least 2 occasions. I have never seen my husband in such pain as when we visited the hospital daily to see his son as he detoxed from alcohol, as when he became threatening and ugly while on crack. I was grieving what I thought of as the destruction of this young man and I was witnessing the nearly overwhelming grief of my husband.

So if you believe for even one moment that I am some sort of automaton who does not care, you are mistaken.

For Mr. HG and I, it has taken time, patience, and constant work to get to this point. We are Christians who believe that all human beings are endowed with free will. We pray daily for the young man's safety and health--that God will show him the way to the best path for his life--whatever that may be.

We realize that as an adult with free will, however, those decisions about his life are completely up to him. We had to let go....let go of our expectations for his life and let go of the pain.

Was it easy....no, not at all. It was sometimes an hour-by-hour or day-by-day process. It took a lot of prayer, a lot of talking it out with each other, and a lot of keeping busy with our own lives.

I also realize that this may not work for everyone because others don't share my beliefs. I'm just sharing what has worked for me and for my husband.

There are many, many paths to healing, and I hope that you will find yours. I wish for nothing but peace and health and joy for you, your grandson, and your entire family.

Freedom1990

I don't think there is a single parent/grandparent here who won't tell you it isn't painful to have a child/grandchild in active addictions.

The point is, those who have chosen to seek healing for self eventually come to a point where they don't live in the pain anymore. I am certainly one of those.

Yes I have times I feel sad or pain, but it is not the dark cloud following me constantly anymore.

Yes I had expectations for both of my daughters as they were growing up. Guess what? They both took entirely different roads than what I had planned. I learned to accept the pain and disappointment of my dreams for them, grieve, and move on.

One daughter is an untreated codependent and the other is an active addict/codependent. I also have a 17-year-old granddaughter now as an active addict/codependent.

I may be the only living example of recovery that they will see, so each day I continue to focus on me and how to better myself as a person.

I am a long-term recovering addict/alcoholic (22 years), and recovering codependent (13 years), so if I can do it, anyone can.

Sending you hugs of support.

Tuffgirl

I underlined the part of this post that resonates with me most. I am a parent. No matter how hard I try to teach my daughters about good nutrition and healthy living, my younger daughter chooses to eat junk food. No matter how much of a good influence I try to be, she prefers Taco Bell. My older daughter is a slob. I can't tell you the number of times I have "helped" her organize and sort her things to keep a cleaner space, but she continues to slide right back into her disorderly chaos.

No, this isn't addictions you are talking about, but they are behaviors I don't care for and didn't model for them growing up. This is them being their own person and making their own choices. What can I do about it? I can nag. I can interfere. I can do it for them. But it doesn't change the fact that they have choices, as they are people too.

I believe Ann and HG said it best with the idea of free will. My daughters have free will. I raise them to exercise their free will. When they leave my care, I hope they continue to do so, using the best judgement they have. Their choices are not mine, nor are they a reflection of me and the parenting they received from me.

I have dreams for them, sure. But they are dreams, not expectations. I don't base my feelings on dreams.

And I don't attach my feelings to my kids. Or my parents. Or my significant others. My feelings (whatever they may be) are my own. No one makes me feel anything. So if I am disappointed in my kid for eating Taco Bell, or for having a messy room, or for drinking at a party, or whatever it may be, those feelings are mine. I am responsible for them, I cause them with my own thinking in my own head.

Detaching and accepting are not easy actions, but in regards to addictions, it is a caring move to give ourselves some relief, since we have no control over the person who has the addiction, nor over the addiction itself. It's not about stopping caring, or giving up. It's letting go of the outcome of someone else's choices and focusing on what we can control (us) and have power over (ourselves).

Prayers for peace today,
~T

Titanic

seek, I understand you suffer as your grandson's actions make you feel unhappy and cheated (in the sense of broken expectations or breached contract).

The suffering we experience is real. It is not something enjoyable. But it is part of life as we know it. You then ask how one deals with it.

In that regard, from Christianity as you mentioned it, it may help you to reread and study the book of Job and the parable of the Prodigal Son.

And from Buddhism, as you mentioned that too, have you studied and "taken in" the Four Noble Truths of dukkha ("suffering" & "what is") and especially the Noble Eightfold Path out of dukkha (the fourth noble truth)?

Hope they help! Peace.

Hypatia

Interesting statement. Isn't that exactly what you are doing, or wanting to do, with your family? Very likely they don't consider it helpful either.

Just something to think about. When I'm having a problem with someone, I like to flip sides and try to see it from the other perspective. I'm not always successful in doing that, but even the effort pays off in helping me to glimpse the bigger picture instead of just focusing on my own little piece of it.

LaTeeDa

Big differences between guiding and dictating. Between caring and expecting. Between desiring and demanding. Like many here, I had to take out my "core values" one by one and scrutinize them. There were many things I "believed" that just weren't true and didn't serve me well. My core values have changed (and that, in itself, took some major work). I am much more centered in reality now and much less likely to live in a fantasy world in my head. Still a work in progress, but life is much less painful and a lot more joyful.

L