Are they even emotionally available or capable?
Iceberg Ahead!
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Out at Sea
Posts: 1,177
Originally Posted by NYCDoglvr 
As a recovering alcoholic I can say no, you're having a relationship with the bottle. There's no one home, certainly not the person he/she used to be.
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: texas
Posts: 103
Who TF am I dealing with and are they emotionally available?
My A had major socipathic tendencies....which I have found can go hand and hand with alcoholism.
He has at least 11 of these characteristics....
Profile of the Sociopath
This website summarizes some of the common features of descriptions of the behavior of sociopaths.
Glibness and Superficial Charm
Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.
Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."
Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.
Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.
Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.
Incapacity for Love
Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.
Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.
Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.
Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.
Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.
Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.
Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.
Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Other Related Qualities:
Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them
Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them
Authoritarian
Secretive
Paranoid
Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired
Conventional appearance
Goal of enslavement of their victim(s)
Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life
Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love)
Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim
Incapable of real human attachment to another
Unable to feel remorse or guilt
Extreme narcissism and grandiose
May state readily that their goal is to rule the world
My A had major socipathic tendencies....which I have found can go hand and hand with alcoholism.
He has at least 11 of these characteristics....
Profile of the Sociopath
This website summarizes some of the common features of descriptions of the behavior of sociopaths.
Glibness and Superficial Charm
Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.
Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."
Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.
Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.
Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.
Incapacity for Love
Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.
Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.
Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.
Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.
Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.
Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.
Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.
Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Other Related Qualities:
Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them
Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them
Authoritarian
Secretive
Paranoid
Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired
Conventional appearance
Goal of enslavement of their victim(s)
Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life
Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love)
Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim
Incapable of real human attachment to another
Unable to feel remorse or guilt
Extreme narcissism and grandiose
May state readily that their goal is to rule the world
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,826
I can answer one part at least: yes they do bury,numb emotions and do later explode and destroy or try anyways. They bury their emotions because they don't know how to deal with emotion and also don't know how to resolve conflicts. So sweeping it under the rug seems the easier, softer way at the time only to create bigger problems later on.
Originally Posted by Titanic
In another thread, "Who TF am I dealing with?", I threw this question out along the way:
Learn2Live asked me to clarify so, what I was trying to put my finger on is this. In a "normal" relationship, two people love each other. When one falters, which is inevitable, they talk about and resolve it, or not but then it's clearly "there" between them to be resolved. They're BOTH over it or not. They are emotionally engaged.
With an A, when the other falters, does some or even most of "the issue" fall into an abyss, which Addiction stands guard over? Like some Bermuda Triangle, do some slights, mistakes and missteps disappear or barely register on the A's radar yet somehow eat the A from the inside?
Do As just stash this stuff, only to say later that it was our fault the relationship failed? Do they just fester with their wounds?
Do the As take our apologies and even lie when they say it's okay?
OR IS IT BROADER THAN THAT? Are As emotionally available? Are they at least withdrawn? Can they emotionally deal or relate?
Do As just bury, numb (yes, with their DOC), stuff or suppress events or emotions, temporarily, only to explode later - like a volcano - destroying themselves, their family members and their relationships?
Are they emotionally stunted, unable or unwilling to be in a realistic relationship? Are they emotionally capable of a REAL one? A relationship with a mature adult, not some other unrecovered A or some emotional "child"?
Or is it only some As, some wounds, some apologies, some situations?
Am I at fault even though I apologized (as ones in normal couples do) and worked at the relationship on my end?
Learn2Live asked me to clarify so, what I was trying to put my finger on is this. In a "normal" relationship, two people love each other. When one falters, which is inevitable, they talk about and resolve it, or not but then it's clearly "there" between them to be resolved. They're BOTH over it or not. They are emotionally engaged.
With an A, when the other falters, does some or even most of "the issue" fall into an abyss, which Addiction stands guard over? Like some Bermuda Triangle, do some slights, mistakes and missteps disappear or barely register on the A's radar yet somehow eat the A from the inside?
Do As just stash this stuff, only to say later that it was our fault the relationship failed? Do they just fester with their wounds?
Do the As take our apologies and even lie when they say it's okay?
OR IS IT BROADER THAN THAT? Are As emotionally available? Are they at least withdrawn? Can they emotionally deal or relate?
Do As just bury, numb (yes, with their DOC), stuff or suppress events or emotions, temporarily, only to explode later - like a volcano - destroying themselves, their family members and their relationships?
Are they emotionally stunted, unable or unwilling to be in a realistic relationship? Are they emotionally capable of a REAL one? A relationship with a mature adult, not some other unrecovered A or some emotional "child"?
Or is it only some As, some wounds, some apologies, some situations?
Am I at fault even though I apologized (as ones in normal couples do) and worked at the relationship on my end?
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 6,262
And, however it all shakes out, THAT "person" is gone for good, wouldn't you say?
Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 352
This is so interesting, I was always saying to my A "you never cut me any slack" and "I'm only human, I make mistakes, why are you so harsh on me?". Yesterday he was screaming at me about things that I said 4 years ago. It never really occurred to me that this behaviour was due to his addiction.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 32
Originally Posted by KKE
This is so interesting, I was always saying to my A "you never cut me any slack" and "I'm only human, I make mistakes, why are you so harsh on me?". Yesterday he was screaming at me about things that I said 4 years ago. It never really occurred to me that this behaviour was due to his addiction.
I kept comparing his to that of "normal" peoples' and was shocked and dismayed by a lot of his behavior. Reading here @ SR, I came to understand that you simply can't uphold A's to "normal" standards and expectations. Sadly, their alcoholism skews and distorts so much.
I AM CANADIAN
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Niagara Region, Canada
Posts: 2,578
Learn2Live quote "you cannot have an Interdependent relationship with an alcoholic or addict "
as mush as you SEE glimmer of hope...nope, they cant...its a circle all the TIME!!
**They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims. **
and that is why i stopped DATING.....
as mush as you SEE glimmer of hope...nope, they cant...its a circle all the TIME!!
**They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims. **
and that is why i stopped DATING.....
Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 336
I realize now that the strange empty feeling I had all through most of my 26 year marriage was the unavailability of my AH. I could never understand why I always had this constant emotional yearning, like an itch that never quite got scratched. After any event e.g having dinner out, which only happened cos he could drink, I always felt odd, sort of bored - very hard to describe but it was as if that lovely moment of 'togetherness' just never came.
I realize now that this happened because he is an A. Even when he was out, and very lively and entertaining it was just cos he was playing to a crowd. Being a 'people-pleaser'. But the cruelty he displayed whenever I reached out to him sometimes was awful. If I tried to hold him he sometimes gave me a disgusted look and said ' Oh please find somebody else for THAT!' I have often asked myself what on earth brought this on. He generally did not have any real interest in a physical relationship and used to make fun of me and tell me I was a 'horn-ball' I knew it wasn't true but it still hurt.
Now I realize of course that he was mostly off in his own world and that was why I felt so miserable. I have now had no contact at all with him for about a month and this is the best I have felt in about 30 years. No fear of that constant threat of abandonment etc etc.
As to the slights they remember I think they just bank them in a filing system somewhere, ready to use at any opportunity. This time my AH does not want a relationship because ' I am a serial adulterer', the last time he didn't want a relationship it was because I had 'ignored him while the children were young' and he was no longer prepared to wait around now that they had grown up and I had 'lost that power' .
Utter rubbish but in their heads maybe it makes sense. The less I am having to live in that world the saner I am feeling and the better I am becoming. But yes i have had these questions going round and round my head for years.
He did get very emotional sometimes - I remember I came into the room once and he was sobbing to a jazz song! I think there was lots of emotion in there but he did not really seem to know how to channel it.
Spiritually I know he had no belief system which is one reason I think AA will never be an option for him. They say never say never, I'm saying never!
Even children as young as 8 years old have the maturity to apologise to me in a way my AH never could. I can probably count the number of apologies I have had from him in 30 years on my left hand. And it was usually for quite trivial things. I don't know why they are like this, I hope I am coming to the time that I won't care or be remotely interested , or only as interested as if i was watching a wildlife program .
:Still you raised some interesting points.
I realize now that this happened because he is an A. Even when he was out, and very lively and entertaining it was just cos he was playing to a crowd. Being a 'people-pleaser'. But the cruelty he displayed whenever I reached out to him sometimes was awful. If I tried to hold him he sometimes gave me a disgusted look and said ' Oh please find somebody else for THAT!' I have often asked myself what on earth brought this on. He generally did not have any real interest in a physical relationship and used to make fun of me and tell me I was a 'horn-ball' I knew it wasn't true but it still hurt.
Now I realize of course that he was mostly off in his own world and that was why I felt so miserable. I have now had no contact at all with him for about a month and this is the best I have felt in about 30 years. No fear of that constant threat of abandonment etc etc.
As to the slights they remember I think they just bank them in a filing system somewhere, ready to use at any opportunity. This time my AH does not want a relationship because ' I am a serial adulterer', the last time he didn't want a relationship it was because I had 'ignored him while the children were young' and he was no longer prepared to wait around now that they had grown up and I had 'lost that power' .
Utter rubbish but in their heads maybe it makes sense. The less I am having to live in that world the saner I am feeling and the better I am becoming. But yes i have had these questions going round and round my head for years.
He did get very emotional sometimes - I remember I came into the room once and he was sobbing to a jazz song! I think there was lots of emotion in there but he did not really seem to know how to channel it.
Spiritually I know he had no belief system which is one reason I think AA will never be an option for him. They say never say never, I'm saying never!
Even children as young as 8 years old have the maturity to apologise to me in a way my AH never could. I can probably count the number of apologies I have had from him in 30 years on my left hand. And it was usually for quite trivial things. I don't know why they are like this, I hope I am coming to the time that I won't care or be remotely interested , or only as interested as if i was watching a wildlife program .
:Still you raised some interesting points.
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Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: woodbridge, va
Posts: 4
I posted on newcomers but should have posted on here... I am laying in bed crying and crying... I am a new addition to al anon and acoa. Both of my parents are recovering for 25 years.i joined this to better understand someone I began dating, even though i have been fearful to open up. When he told me he was recovering, 5 1/2 years, and he felt it would be good to examine the root of my dating anxiety and possible link to my childhood, I thought I actually had someone patient enough to support me in my journey. Instead, he kept taking my inventory, suggesting/mandating steps I needed to take then ignoring when I was anxious or felt like a low priority in his time. I was. Last night, after a weekend of no return of texts, missed calls when I told him I was unavailable, an extremely anxious and emotional week at work, and just plain feeling like I have been trying to get to know someone who thinks he is my counselor, he called and broke it off. Telling me hecan't handle/process and respond to texts. He said I need to work harder on my sickness... I lost it. How does someone lead you into this journey of self help, tell you he wants to be there for you, keep talking about wanting to get to know you, you tell him you are dealing with a lot and please be patient, plus he knows you are affected by someone else's alcoholism and you are trying so hard to understand him and his confusing behavior.... I am devastated. It was not a long relationship but intense. He put everything over making time for me a priority. I figured it was too early to expect more. Then he ignores me asking when will we get together. Well, now I get dumped. What is anyone's advice? I will continue acoa but this sours my view of using AA to judge someone. He used it through out the dumping process saying I don't
realuze I am "sick". Or I don't know what I am talking about. I should mention my parents fully nvolved me in their recovery and we talk about it all the time. n here. I am an emotional mess.
realuze I am "sick". Or I don't know what I am talking about. I should mention my parents fully nvolved me in their recovery and we talk about it all the time. n here. I am an emotional mess.
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Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: fla
Posts: 47
Originally Posted by Learn2Live
Titanic, when I read your post, what came to mind were two things: Interdependence and Resentment.
You ask about what is "normal" for a relationship. And to me, ALL of what we talk about is "normal," whether it is sick behavior or sick thinking, or not. The question for me is not about normalcy, but instead my focus is on what is healthy. And what I have learned (although I am not great in practice, YET) is that Interdependent relationships, which is what I think you are describing regarding communication and emotional engagement, are the healthiest. And IMO, you cannot have an Interdependent relationship with an alcoholic or addict. In Interdependent relationships, EACH person is strong, healthy, and balanced in their own life and they come together strong, healthy, and balanced, and share, relate, communicate, grow, etc. TOGETHER. They cooperate with one another and work together toward a shared goal. I've yet to meet an alcoholic or addict who is strong, healthy, or balanced. The relationships with As & As I've had and heard about are SEVERELY skewed. And ALWAYS toward the A's use of their DOC.
The second issue you talk about in your post sounds to me like Resentment. And if you Google "resentment alcoholism" or something like that, I am certain you will get plenty of information about it. The alcoholics and addicts I have known are the most resentful people I've ever met. They hold onto resentments for decades, if not their entire lives. It is the way they THINK. And the way one thinks determines how they relate to others. And until they let go of that way of thinking, they will not change.
Here are my answers to your questions.
Probably. I think it depends on the issue. What did you do that the A is holding a resentment about?
Yes, they can do this.
Yes.
I've never met or known an emotionally available alcoholic or addict. Alcoholism and addiction are means of escape from emotions and feelings. The substance numbs them and their feelings. Numbs the world. They are not fully participatory.
Yes.
Yes.
Doubtful.
Everyone is different but one thing is for sure, alcoholism is progressive and the longer they use their DOC, the harder it is to be in relationship with them. You can generalize, but I think only so far.
Why do you feel at fault? This way of thinking is the realm of the alcoholic and the addict, and it will keep you MIRED in their world. REFUSE their world; create your own. Surround yourself with healthy thinking people and watch as the addict's world melts away. Have you seen the movie "What Dreams May Come?" If not, watch it to get an idea of what I am talking about. Alcoholism and addiction create a world that exists only to support and feed the addiction. And those who choose to remain close to the alcoholic or addict live in THEIR world. OUR world, our wants, our needs, our goals, our desires, our thoughts, etc all slowly become an unreality. If we let them. I believe that is what drives so many of us to feel like we are insane, going crazy, constantly hurt and feeling badly. And that is what Al-Anon and strongly maintaining our own lives help us to prevent.
IMO, there is no such thing as fault. Fault is something that is made up in your head, it's just a way of looking at things. If a tree falls on a house and injures a person living there, what good does it do to find fault? In our society, if we find fault we can determine who should PAY for the damage. And if they do not pay, we can sue them to try to make them pay. But beyond that, what good does fault play? You can blame whomever you want for the failure of a relationship but in the end, what does it get you? Blame myself so I feel bad about me? Blame the alcoholic so they feel bad about them? Maybe the person who accepts the blame will jump off a bridge to pay penance?
Anyway, that's my thinking about what you posted about. Please take what you like and leave the rest.
You ask about what is "normal" for a relationship. And to me, ALL of what we talk about is "normal," whether it is sick behavior or sick thinking, or not. The question for me is not about normalcy, but instead my focus is on what is healthy. And what I have learned (although I am not great in practice, YET) is that Interdependent relationships, which is what I think you are describing regarding communication and emotional engagement, are the healthiest. And IMO, you cannot have an Interdependent relationship with an alcoholic or addict. In Interdependent relationships, EACH person is strong, healthy, and balanced in their own life and they come together strong, healthy, and balanced, and share, relate, communicate, grow, etc. TOGETHER. They cooperate with one another and work together toward a shared goal. I've yet to meet an alcoholic or addict who is strong, healthy, or balanced. The relationships with As & As I've had and heard about are SEVERELY skewed. And ALWAYS toward the A's use of their DOC.
The second issue you talk about in your post sounds to me like Resentment. And if you Google "resentment alcoholism" or something like that, I am certain you will get plenty of information about it. The alcoholics and addicts I have known are the most resentful people I've ever met. They hold onto resentments for decades, if not their entire lives. It is the way they THINK. And the way one thinks determines how they relate to others. And until they let go of that way of thinking, they will not change.
Here are my answers to your questions.
Probably. I think it depends on the issue. What did you do that the A is holding a resentment about?
Yes, they can do this.
Yes.
I've never met or known an emotionally available alcoholic or addict. Alcoholism and addiction are means of escape from emotions and feelings. The substance numbs them and their feelings. Numbs the world. They are not fully participatory.
Yes.
Yes.
Doubtful.
Everyone is different but one thing is for sure, alcoholism is progressive and the longer they use their DOC, the harder it is to be in relationship with them. You can generalize, but I think only so far.
Why do you feel at fault? This way of thinking is the realm of the alcoholic and the addict, and it will keep you MIRED in their world. REFUSE their world; create your own. Surround yourself with healthy thinking people and watch as the addict's world melts away. Have you seen the movie "What Dreams May Come?" If not, watch it to get an idea of what I am talking about. Alcoholism and addiction create a world that exists only to support and feed the addiction. And those who choose to remain close to the alcoholic or addict live in THEIR world. OUR world, our wants, our needs, our goals, our desires, our thoughts, etc all slowly become an unreality. If we let them. I believe that is what drives so many of us to feel like we are insane, going crazy, constantly hurt and feeling badly. And that is what Al-Anon and strongly maintaining our own lives help us to prevent.
IMO, there is no such thing as fault. Fault is something that is made up in your head, it's just a way of looking at things. If a tree falls on a house and injures a person living there, what good does it do to find fault? In our society, if we find fault we can determine who should PAY for the damage. And if they do not pay, we can sue them to try to make them pay. But beyond that, what good does fault play? You can blame whomever you want for the failure of a relationship but in the end, what does it get you? Blame myself so I feel bad about me? Blame the alcoholic so they feel bad about them? Maybe the person who accepts the blame will jump off a bridge to pay penance?
Anyway, that's my thinking about what you posted about. Please take what you like and leave the rest.
I absolutely grateful that I am part of this website and read this reply comment to titanics post your knowledge in this commented reply is such a beautifully put and touching def meant for me to read . You r right on with my xabf as well and its unreal how this knowldge u shared has given me such clarity and will take a lot from this
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Location: fla
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Originally Posted by bellee
I really need advice so I can actually eat and not cry. He blamed it on me then said he'd take the blame. Then had to go pick up his daughter.
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Location: fla
Posts: 47
Originally Posted by Tuffgirl
The maddening thing is - a lot of it won't make sense, because its irrational.
Not a week goes by without the "why's" bubbling up from my little hurt subconscious.
But lillamy is right in that it doesn't matter why. It just is.
I really hate that statement sometimes.
Not a week goes by without the "why's" bubbling up from my little hurt subconscious.
But lillamy is right in that it doesn't matter why. It just is.
I really hate that statement sometimes.
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Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: fla
Posts: 47
Originally Posted by Earthworm
I know this probably won't make anyone feel better but I'm a recovering A having a relationship with another recovering A and we have 50 years between us of sobriety. Even with all those years, all that work it doesn't make relationships any easier,saner,emotionally available. All that crap is still there it's almost like ingrained learned behaviour and unless one is really aware of it and really wants to deal with it it's there. I don't know if it's because those are universal traits from being ACOA's on top of it, I don't know.
Earthworm
Earthworm
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