alanon questions/issues from an "A"
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: akron,OH
Posts: 3
alanon questions/issues from an "A"
Hi, I'm an alcoholic in recovery and have a few issues regarding alanon theories. I read this alanon forum regularly to see the other side of things and feel it helps me stay on track. But there are a couple of things I can't understand.
The first issue I have concerns the 3 C's. While I'll agree that you cannot control or cure an alcoholic, to claim absolutely no responsibility is ludicrous. My wife is an alanon member. I have never told her this or used it against her in any way so this is not to justify me being an alcoholic. But I was not an alcoholic until my wife (at the time fiance) and I bought a house and moved in together. She agreed (unfortunately not in writing) that she would get a job that paid at least $200/wk. I didn't think that was too much to ask. Apparently it was. Eight years later, we have added a child and she has made about $10,000 in that time. But she has a really nice tan from lying around the pool. And somewhere in there I quit "getting any" until we decided to get pregnant. (I figured if she is not going to work, she might as well have kids because I didn't want her to work until our child started school anyway.) Needless to say financial trouble ensued and I began resenting her. While I understand it's not in Dr. Phil's top ten problem solving techniques, I began hitting the bottle pretty often rather than making waves. When I found she didn't like this I used it every time I got shot down in bed. I consciously would think, "You don't want to put out? Fine, I'm going downstairs and getting drunk." Needless to say, eventually I became a full-blown alcoholic and I don't have a problem taking responsibility for it. But for her to be going to alanon meetings and the people there telling her that she in NO WAY caused my alcoholism really bothers me.
The other issue I have trouble understanding concerns both of our recoveries. If the "A" messes up his recovery, The Alanon is told "It's his recovery not yours, concentrate on YOUR recovery." which I agree with totally. The problem is, when the "A" is doing well and working on himself and concentrating on HIS recovery, The Alanon complains that she feels left out. To me it's almost like they want credit. Now, in my opinion, if the Alanon isn't going to take, for lack of a better word, credit for causing the alcoholism, then they shouldn't expect any credit for the recovery of the alcoholic.
This post isn't to bash Alanon. I am very thankful for them. It has helped my wife immensely in other aspects of her life. It has even helped me by getting her to leave me alone so I could begin to recover on my own. I'm just wondering if I’m missing something., Thanks.
The first issue I have concerns the 3 C's. While I'll agree that you cannot control or cure an alcoholic, to claim absolutely no responsibility is ludicrous. My wife is an alanon member. I have never told her this or used it against her in any way so this is not to justify me being an alcoholic. But I was not an alcoholic until my wife (at the time fiance) and I bought a house and moved in together. She agreed (unfortunately not in writing) that she would get a job that paid at least $200/wk. I didn't think that was too much to ask. Apparently it was. Eight years later, we have added a child and she has made about $10,000 in that time. But she has a really nice tan from lying around the pool. And somewhere in there I quit "getting any" until we decided to get pregnant. (I figured if she is not going to work, she might as well have kids because I didn't want her to work until our child started school anyway.) Needless to say financial trouble ensued and I began resenting her. While I understand it's not in Dr. Phil's top ten problem solving techniques, I began hitting the bottle pretty often rather than making waves. When I found she didn't like this I used it every time I got shot down in bed. I consciously would think, "You don't want to put out? Fine, I'm going downstairs and getting drunk." Needless to say, eventually I became a full-blown alcoholic and I don't have a problem taking responsibility for it. But for her to be going to alanon meetings and the people there telling her that she in NO WAY caused my alcoholism really bothers me.
The other issue I have trouble understanding concerns both of our recoveries. If the "A" messes up his recovery, The Alanon is told "It's his recovery not yours, concentrate on YOUR recovery." which I agree with totally. The problem is, when the "A" is doing well and working on himself and concentrating on HIS recovery, The Alanon complains that she feels left out. To me it's almost like they want credit. Now, in my opinion, if the Alanon isn't going to take, for lack of a better word, credit for causing the alcoholism, then they shouldn't expect any credit for the recovery of the alcoholic.
This post isn't to bash Alanon. I am very thankful for them. It has helped my wife immensely in other aspects of her life. It has even helped me by getting her to leave me alone so I could begin to recover on my own. I'm just wondering if I’m missing something., Thanks.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 20
My understanding, from classes I took with my Husband when he was in recovery at Alina Lodge; We didn't cause it because the Alcoholic chooses to drink, when problems or situations can be handled in another way. So, we may have made the alcoholic angry, mad, upset, sad, or whatever - But we have no control over how they deal with those feelings.
I hope this helps a little.
Peace and serenity be with you and your family.
Carol
I hope this helps a little.
Peace and serenity be with you and your family.
Carol
Member
Join Date: May 2002
Location: San diego, CA, USA
Posts: 86
Sounds like other you have other issues in your marriage that are not just due to your addiction...
When both people start recovery... you can begin to see what those issues are...
Have you and your wife started marriage counseling?
When both people start recovery... you can begin to see what those issues are...
Have you and your wife started marriage counseling?
Supply Manager
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Cleaverville
Posts: 2,898
Hi...Not suprisingly I am going to take issue with your view. I did not cause anyone in my life to drink and I will tell you why. You have a choice...you could have chosen cold showers instead of drinking. You could have chosen line dancing, a health club, uh...counceling or any one of many things to fill your time. You were predisposed to choose alcohol.
I could bring the chip 'n dales into my bedroom and that will not cause my husband to become an alcoholic. Many people choose to deals with their troubles in ways that do not involve checking out of life.
When I started Alanon much of my work involved my own part in the hell that my marraige and our lives had become. Pulling away sexually, throwing tantrums, kicking doors in, bad mouthing my family were only a few of those things. One by one I began to correct and make amends, but in no way did any one of those things cause the alcoholism in my family. We fed off each other....but cause it??? Not even.
You drink..I go nuts. I probably would have gone nuts without you and you would have drank without me.
To the 2nd part of your post I am the first one to tell an Anon to get a life when her hubby is in recovery. That is because I KNOW how much you need it. I went to 4-5 meetings a week and put up with the same grief from my drinking family. Personally I want no credit and I want no blame. Guilt for your drinking...and you feeding that guilt...kept me sick a long time.
I have to make an effort here not to get angry...I have a son that sounds alot like you. His dad had high expectations and a quick temper...that is why he became an an alcoholic. HOGWASH!!
JT
I could bring the chip 'n dales into my bedroom and that will not cause my husband to become an alcoholic. Many people choose to deals with their troubles in ways that do not involve checking out of life.
When I started Alanon much of my work involved my own part in the hell that my marraige and our lives had become. Pulling away sexually, throwing tantrums, kicking doors in, bad mouthing my family were only a few of those things. One by one I began to correct and make amends, but in no way did any one of those things cause the alcoholism in my family. We fed off each other....but cause it??? Not even.
You drink..I go nuts. I probably would have gone nuts without you and you would have drank without me.
To the 2nd part of your post I am the first one to tell an Anon to get a life when her hubby is in recovery. That is because I KNOW how much you need it. I went to 4-5 meetings a week and put up with the same grief from my drinking family. Personally I want no credit and I want no blame. Guilt for your drinking...and you feeding that guilt...kept me sick a long time.
I have to make an effort here not to get angry...I have a son that sounds alot like you. His dad had high expectations and a quick temper...that is why he became an an alcoholic. HOGWASH!!
JT
Nature Girl
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: By The Lake
Posts: 60,328
I have said, more than once, that I am not responsible for my son's addictions AND I am not responsible for his recovery. Period.
Frankly, your post made the hair on my neck stand straight up. Not because of what you said, but because I believed that nonsense for far too many years before I found my program.
It sounds to me like you need to work on communicating with your wife, and counselling for both of you would probably be a good idea.
Maybe your drinking has caused her problem. Maybe her problems has caused your drinking. I totally disagree with both of those statements.
More likely, maybe you just have a lousy marriage and it needs a whole bunch of work.
Hugs and prayers for BOTH of you
Ann
Frankly, your post made the hair on my neck stand straight up. Not because of what you said, but because I believed that nonsense for far too many years before I found my program.
It sounds to me like you need to work on communicating with your wife, and counselling for both of you would probably be a good idea.
Maybe your drinking has caused her problem. Maybe her problems has caused your drinking. I totally disagree with both of those statements.
More likely, maybe you just have a lousy marriage and it needs a whole bunch of work.
Hugs and prayers for BOTH of you
Ann
Queen of one liners
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: walking beside you! Not in front of you.
Posts: 658
Welcome Jakesdad,
I am glad to welcome you and your soberiety to SR. I hope to hear from you again soon..
You only had 2 questions to ask us Al-Anons.. WOW, that is to the point and I love it....
#1...We all have choices and when I react to someone else's behavior in a damaging way to me (like drinking) I am making an unhealthy choice for me....If they do something that makes me mad I need to look at the situation and my part in it....I don't have to like the situatuion but I do have to like me in it....IF I am
punishing someone for doing something I don't like, I need to ask myself what and why... I need to take responsiblitiy for my part and own it , and work for a soluation... BUT I DON"T MAKE ANYONE DRINK even if I stay in denial of my part... I can push buttons that I know will make person withdraw from me...We all can do that...after all even us Al-Anons are human...LOL
I do believe that I can keep the A. sicker for a longer period of time just by covering up for, trying to protect them from the consquices (?) of their behavior, and trying to get them to straighten up and do their life the way I 'think" they should. Before Al-Anon I'd have told you I did it because I loved them but I know today I was doing it because I knew NO other way...I also know today that kind of love will kill those who suffer from additictions.....
I don't have anyone in my family in recovery today even though I think they need it, but hopefully I have enough recovery to give credit where credit is due...If they get sober it is their victory not mine...I'd gladly have them do 90 in 90 and even more IF that is what they need to do...I know Alcoholism is progressive and fatal..If their recovery leads them away from me even premanety I pray that I would still able to bless them and Let Go and Let God work in their live...
Please realize the opinions expressed here are strickly mine...coming from my journey...Take what you can use and leave the rest....
From your post I hope and pray you BOTH have sponsors and are working the 12 Steps with them...I also work the 12 Traditions
with my family to the best of my ability whether they particape (?)or not...
As I see it my situation isn't alot different than an alcoholic seeking recovery without support from their spouses and family as I am the only here that works a 12 Step program...I went because I needed new tools to live MY life...I stay because I am only a heart beat away from going back to my old way of living life in which I was never happy....
I am a much healthier person today than I was yesterday and I pray that I'll be a healthier person tomorrow...I use the word healthier because good/bad is just like black/white thinking for me...
Sorry this is so long but I just couldn't short cut my reply to you...
Love and prayers,
Daffodil
I am glad to welcome you and your soberiety to SR. I hope to hear from you again soon..
You only had 2 questions to ask us Al-Anons.. WOW, that is to the point and I love it....
#1...We all have choices and when I react to someone else's behavior in a damaging way to me (like drinking) I am making an unhealthy choice for me....If they do something that makes me mad I need to look at the situation and my part in it....I don't have to like the situatuion but I do have to like me in it....IF I am
punishing someone for doing something I don't like, I need to ask myself what and why... I need to take responsiblitiy for my part and own it , and work for a soluation... BUT I DON"T MAKE ANYONE DRINK even if I stay in denial of my part... I can push buttons that I know will make person withdraw from me...We all can do that...after all even us Al-Anons are human...LOL
I do believe that I can keep the A. sicker for a longer period of time just by covering up for, trying to protect them from the consquices (?) of their behavior, and trying to get them to straighten up and do their life the way I 'think" they should. Before Al-Anon I'd have told you I did it because I loved them but I know today I was doing it because I knew NO other way...I also know today that kind of love will kill those who suffer from additictions.....
I don't have anyone in my family in recovery today even though I think they need it, but hopefully I have enough recovery to give credit where credit is due...If they get sober it is their victory not mine...I'd gladly have them do 90 in 90 and even more IF that is what they need to do...I know Alcoholism is progressive and fatal..If their recovery leads them away from me even premanety I pray that I would still able to bless them and Let Go and Let God work in their live...
Please realize the opinions expressed here are strickly mine...coming from my journey...Take what you can use and leave the rest....
From your post I hope and pray you BOTH have sponsors and are working the 12 Steps with them...I also work the 12 Traditions
with my family to the best of my ability whether they particape (?)or not...
As I see it my situation isn't alot different than an alcoholic seeking recovery without support from their spouses and family as I am the only here that works a 12 Step program...I went because I needed new tools to live MY life...I stay because I am only a heart beat away from going back to my old way of living life in which I was never happy....
I am a much healthier person today than I was yesterday and I pray that I'll be a healthier person tomorrow...I use the word healthier because good/bad is just like black/white thinking for me...
Sorry this is so long but I just couldn't short cut my reply to you...
Love and prayers,
Daffodil
Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,955
Jakesdad
I wonder if I'm missing something too. Because here's what I got from your post:
If your wife had worked more and put out more, you would never have become an alcoholic.
So am I missing something? I'm sure I must be, because that just makes no sense whatsoever.
Peace,
Gabe
If your wife had worked more and put out more, you would never have become an alcoholic.
So am I missing something? I'm sure I must be, because that just makes no sense whatsoever.
Peace,
Gabe
Learning to love life...
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 529
Hi JakesDad,
You know what?
I credit you for ASKING these questions
It sounds like you really just don't understand, and are searching for answers. I did get a sense of you WANTING to prove yourself right however... or moreover, wanting to prove your wife WRONG. Thats OK too... its all a part of being human.
But, you aren't going to get THAT kind of support here.
There is no way to convince us that ANYONE is responsible for "causing" anothers alcoholism - you know how we KNOW? We believed it for a long time, and we suffered because of it. It wasn't until we STOPPED believing that we were responsible, that we began to get healthy.
And it doesn't matter that your wife refused you in bed, or that she was spending a lot of money, or that she wasn't paying attention to you etc... None of what SHE did or didn't do throughout your marriage was the CAUSE of your disease. It can easily be seen as being "driven to drink", but it really is just an excuse. What YOU did was internalize the pain, and use alcohol to numb it... it isn't HER fault you became addicted.
Of course, this doesn't mean that she doesn't play a role the disfunction of the marriage; maybe she does. Maybe she's just like I was, and used manipulation to get what she wanted and needed. Maybe SHE needs a lot of recovery too - I know I did.
You have to stop looking for some place to put the blame, and just accept that things need to change.
I have never felt "left out" when my husband is working his recovery... I think this is because I am too busy working mine. But it IS a whole new way of living, and things in the marriage have to shift; it is no longer about getting what you need from each other... its about getting what you need from YOURSELF. Maybe she still holds YOU responsible for making her happy.
Anyway, I got a lot from this post - thanks
Take care
Meg
You know what?
I credit you for ASKING these questions
It sounds like you really just don't understand, and are searching for answers. I did get a sense of you WANTING to prove yourself right however... or moreover, wanting to prove your wife WRONG. Thats OK too... its all a part of being human.But, you aren't going to get THAT kind of support here.
There is no way to convince us that ANYONE is responsible for "causing" anothers alcoholism - you know how we KNOW? We believed it for a long time, and we suffered because of it. It wasn't until we STOPPED believing that we were responsible, that we began to get healthy.
And it doesn't matter that your wife refused you in bed, or that she was spending a lot of money, or that she wasn't paying attention to you etc... None of what SHE did or didn't do throughout your marriage was the CAUSE of your disease. It can easily be seen as being "driven to drink", but it really is just an excuse. What YOU did was internalize the pain, and use alcohol to numb it... it isn't HER fault you became addicted.
Of course, this doesn't mean that she doesn't play a role the disfunction of the marriage; maybe she does. Maybe she's just like I was, and used manipulation to get what she wanted and needed. Maybe SHE needs a lot of recovery too - I know I did.
You have to stop looking for some place to put the blame, and just accept that things need to change.
I have never felt "left out" when my husband is working his recovery... I think this is because I am too busy working mine. But it IS a whole new way of living, and things in the marriage have to shift; it is no longer about getting what you need from each other... its about getting what you need from YOURSELF. Maybe she still holds YOU responsible for making her happy.
Anyway, I got a lot from this post - thanks
Take care
Meg
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: akron,OH
Posts: 3
Thanks EmotionalMeg, that response answers my question in a way that makes sense to me. I see what you mean. I never really looked at it as “packing it all in and numbing it with alcohol.” She lit the fuse but she didn’t know the candle was dynamite kind of thing.
My post was not intended to figure out who caused what. I never once have played the guilt card. I have never blamed my alcoholism on anyone. I have never told my wife she caused my alcoholism by not working or for any other reason. I posted because sometimes when I read an alanon post and see the “you didn’t cause it” response, I get skeptical because of my own experience and just wanted some explanation for my own personal recovery.
Just Tired
I never thought I had high expectations. I just wanted her to hold up her end of the bargain. Get a five-dollar an hour job and maybe be there sexually once or twice a month. I tried the line dancing but it just wasn’t the same thing.
Yeah, I could’ve got a 2nd job or two. Yeah, I could have REALLY put my foot down, risked a divorce, and wound up living in a van down by the river all the while paying alimony while she moves in with some other guy. But I digress. The plan wasn’t to be an alcoholic though either.
My wife and I are getting along well now. Surprisingly, she took the initiative to get a job and began babysitting in the home so she can work and still take care of our son. And I’m happy to say that things are better in the other problem we had.
I read the alanon posts to get the view from the other side. The hurt I’ve caused and the damage I’ve done.
I’ve found it to be as helpful as the AA forum in my recovery.
Thanks to everyone who responded and kept their anger in check. I was afraid I was gonna ruffle some feathers. That was not my intent. I’m done posting for today. I’ll be back tomorrow.
My post was not intended to figure out who caused what. I never once have played the guilt card. I have never blamed my alcoholism on anyone. I have never told my wife she caused my alcoholism by not working or for any other reason. I posted because sometimes when I read an alanon post and see the “you didn’t cause it” response, I get skeptical because of my own experience and just wanted some explanation for my own personal recovery.
Just Tired
I never thought I had high expectations. I just wanted her to hold up her end of the bargain. Get a five-dollar an hour job and maybe be there sexually once or twice a month. I tried the line dancing but it just wasn’t the same thing.
Yeah, I could’ve got a 2nd job or two. Yeah, I could have REALLY put my foot down, risked a divorce, and wound up living in a van down by the river all the while paying alimony while she moves in with some other guy. But I digress. The plan wasn’t to be an alcoholic though either.
My wife and I are getting along well now. Surprisingly, she took the initiative to get a job and began babysitting in the home so she can work and still take care of our son. And I’m happy to say that things are better in the other problem we had.
I read the alanon posts to get the view from the other side. The hurt I’ve caused and the damage I’ve done.
I’ve found it to be as helpful as the AA forum in my recovery.
Thanks to everyone who responded and kept their anger in check. I was afraid I was gonna ruffle some feathers. That was not my intent. I’m done posting for today. I’ll be back tomorrow.
Supply Manager
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Cleaverville
Posts: 2,898
Jakesdad,
Bless your alcoholic heart! You came here knowing that you might get your throat ripped out and still you came. Gotta love that!
I am happy that you guys are putting it all together...
JT
Bless your alcoholic heart! You came here knowing that you might get your throat ripped out and still you came. Gotta love that!
I am happy that you guys are putting it all together...
JT
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Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Yorkshire UK
Posts: 103
WOW, great questions, Jakesdad, AND great responses. I am a double winner, and you sure as hell got the correct responses, from what I have read, AND credit to you, Jakesdad, you TOOK it!!! Good onya.
All I can really add to it is, aloholism is a disease. Third biggest killer, I have been told, according to the British Medical Association, and (I think) W.H.O. SO can anyone else cause diabetes, heart disease etc???
From what I know of alanon members, we are prime candidates for choosing alcoholic partners (whether they are alcoholics when we meet the or NOT) because we usually have issues BEFORE we realise we are living with an alcoholic. Many come from an alcoholic background, and usually choose a parter like their parent ofamilymmber who they grew up with who is an alcoholic, or suffers some other addiction.
SO, this is really a case of which came first, the chicken or the egg, for you and your wife,and resentments will grow and fester, for which I would suggest marriage counselling, as others have already mentioned.
One thing I will say about this thread is that, YES your questons initially put MY backup too - BUT just look at the recovey shown in everyones responses, and in your second post. It shows so much recovery when we can read a thread like this, and NOT attack angrily. Ain't recovery WONDERFUL, folx???
All I can really add to it is, aloholism is a disease. Third biggest killer, I have been told, according to the British Medical Association, and (I think) W.H.O. SO can anyone else cause diabetes, heart disease etc???
From what I know of alanon members, we are prime candidates for choosing alcoholic partners (whether they are alcoholics when we meet the or NOT) because we usually have issues BEFORE we realise we are living with an alcoholic. Many come from an alcoholic background, and usually choose a parter like their parent ofamilymmber who they grew up with who is an alcoholic, or suffers some other addiction.
SO, this is really a case of which came first, the chicken or the egg, for you and your wife,and resentments will grow and fester, for which I would suggest marriage counselling, as others have already mentioned.
One thing I will say about this thread is that, YES your questons initially put MY backup too - BUT just look at the recovey shown in everyones responses, and in your second post. It shows so much recovery when we can read a thread like this, and NOT attack angrily. Ain't recovery WONDERFUL, folx???
Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Melbourne victoria
Posts: 1,975
Wow ! Jakesdad , what great questions , AND responses!
I agree wholeheartedly with Avie's response in particular , i just reinterate that it IS a disease , and for me, accepting that was the actual begining of my recovery
I am like you jakesdad, in that I read the Alanon responses and posts, to gain insight into how I have hurt my son and his family, it helps me a lot . That is one thing about this site that I love , it ias kinda a one stop recovery tool! lol
I admire you for 1. asking the questions, and 2. for responding as you have . i wish you , and your wifwe a great recovery TOGETHER!
HUGX and Blessings
Lee
I agree wholeheartedly with Avie's response in particular , i just reinterate that it IS a disease , and for me, accepting that was the actual begining of my recovery
I am like you jakesdad, in that I read the Alanon responses and posts, to gain insight into how I have hurt my son and his family, it helps me a lot . That is one thing about this site that I love , it ias kinda a one stop recovery tool! lol
I admire you for 1. asking the questions, and 2. for responding as you have . i wish you , and your wifwe a great recovery TOGETHER!
HUGX and Blessings
Lee
Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Ayer's Cliff, Quebec
Posts: 803
Jakesdad,
You are right hitting the bottle woudn't be one of Dr. Phils top ten things to do to handle things. There are much better, more constructive things to do like going to Alanon which is probably what you should have done before you decided to hit the bottle.
Ngaire
You are right hitting the bottle woudn't be one of Dr. Phils top ten things to do to handle things. There are much better, more constructive things to do like going to Alanon which is probably what you should have done before you decided to hit the bottle.
Ngaire
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: miami
Posts: 3
no one owns anyone else's disease or recovery
Just a thought about JakesDad's comment about Al-Anon's 3 c's
When your wife failed to keep her commitment to earn $200 a week, when she was sexually unresponsive, when she was unconsiderate etc. she created stress for you, but to drink uncontrollably was your problem alone.
Many spouses who are not alcoholic would have handled the stress in other ways than uncontrolled drinking. I am not condemning you for being alcoholic; nobody chooses to have that problem. In Al-Anon , I learned to have compassion for the alcoholic and the addict.
If your wife ever does a 4rth step in Al-Anon, she would have to look at her behavior: failing to live up to commitments, not showing up for marital intimacy etc. She will not have to take the blame for your drinking. The alcoholic needs to accept that they have a disease, they have a program to deal with it. period. It's not anyone elses fault. It's not even their fault.
When your wife failed to keep her commitment to earn $200 a week, when she was sexually unresponsive, when she was unconsiderate etc. she created stress for you, but to drink uncontrollably was your problem alone.
Many spouses who are not alcoholic would have handled the stress in other ways than uncontrolled drinking. I am not condemning you for being alcoholic; nobody chooses to have that problem. In Al-Anon , I learned to have compassion for the alcoholic and the addict.
If your wife ever does a 4rth step in Al-Anon, she would have to look at her behavior: failing to live up to commitments, not showing up for marital intimacy etc. She will not have to take the blame for your drinking. The alcoholic needs to accept that they have a disease, they have a program to deal with it. period. It's not anyone elses fault. It's not even their fault.
peaceful seabird
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: floating
Posts: 4,822
Old thread
Jakesdad has not posted on SR since 2004.
Welcome to SR lenihana!
Why not start a new thread and introduce yourself? You will find lots of information and support at Sober Recover.
Welcome to SR lenihana!
Why not start a new thread and introduce yourself? You will find lots of information and support at Sober Recover.
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