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Had a talk with AH; interesting

Old 08-03-2012, 08:10 AM
  # 21 (permalink)  
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(((Liza))) I read that and all I see is manipulation after manipulation. Please do not feel the need to take on his baggage. He packed it, he can carry it!
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Old 08-03-2012, 08:23 AM
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Is the marriage really something you want to work on to salvage? Or are you continuing to have these conversations waiting for him to wave the white flag and say, "You're right. the problems in our marriage are too big to solve, therefore I agree that the marriage is over." Are you waiting for his agreement/permission? Do you understand that someone like him will NEVER EVER agree to that?
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Old 08-03-2012, 08:48 AM
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Your post was like a kick in the gut.
Reading it put me right back to being married to AXH and having conversations with him that made him feel better and me feel worse and feel that yeah, since he "won" the conversation he must be right and I must be wrong. And that gut feeling that you are stuck and you don't know if you have the right to leave.

Maybe I just need to accept the unacceptable behavior
You can. But before you do, consider what that will do to you. You'll be like I was -- accepting more and more unacceptable behavior, saying "maybe I just need to accept this and we will have a peaceful marriage" until being forced to have sex is acceptable because it's easier to put up with it than to put up with the nastiness if I fight him.

I'm really, really concerned about this man's controlling behavior.

Maybe you should get a job outside the home. That would solve the question of whether to divorce him.
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Old 08-03-2012, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by outonalimb View Post
The thing is...it doesn't matter WHY the relationship is failing.
When it becomes harmful to you and your child, you don't need his permission or anyone's permission (including a marriage counselor) to walk away.
ah ha! now that hits the NAIL ON THE HEAD...thats all about validation...

now?...what do you want to do about all of this? I feel for you...because you know what you do have to do for you and your serenity...
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Old 08-03-2012, 09:01 AM
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Wow, interesting that we here are all having the same reaction to your post, Liz.

What I immediately thought after reading it was "been there, done that" It is so familiar it almost sounds like a page from my own journal. The only difference is the sex and work issues. There was no way in hell he would support me financially, he made that clear throughout by his repeated stinginess with money.

But the round and round conversations - the instant deflection of anything I'd say with a nasty comment meant to steer it all back on me - refusing to accept my opinions or expressions of what I was feeling - good heavens I am glad to be away from all that. It's madness, driven by the addiction.

If this continues to follow the path that my marriage did, my husband stopped drinking after one of these heavy conversations - and started smoking loads of pot. He started back drinking after about a month...at least this is what he told me. I know now it was highly likely he never stopped.

Then there will be another huge blow out - maybe a few - and he might try an AA meeting because you won't stop nagging him about it and he'll do it to shut you up. He may or may not take it seriously. He may say he went and really didn't. Or he may go and keep going, and then proclaim he is "RECOVERED!" and you should stop living in the past, beating him up with his mistakes, and that AA says he needs to focus completely on himself so you continue to be left picking up the pieces all by yourself, parenting by yourself, the usual.

Maybe he may change a bit, have some moments of clarity and understanding that alcoholism has trashed his family. But because you "forced" him into recovery, it won't stick, because underneath he is very, very angry at YOU for everything even though he knows in his head at some degree this is irrational. His ego is so big and needy that he won't be able to be humble enough to make the changes you really want to see (which is why you feel angry AFTER those talks).

Or maybe he might be one of the few who actually uses this as the opportunity to do something different, but it is rare.

It was a painful moment to acknowledge in all humility that I don't like the person my husband is. I would have never dated this guy. And the guy I fell in love with wasn't real, but a carefully built facade based on my wishful thinking and his desire to keep me around. The intermittent reinforcement routine.

Keep journaling. My a-ha moment was reading back 8 months and realizing I had written the exact same thing 8 months later. Nothing changes if nothing changes.
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Old 08-03-2012, 09:12 AM
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Hmm... in contrast to your husband, mine thinks that my efforts to start working and be active outside of the house is a great idea. He encourages me to get out and meet new people and practice my German language skills.

Over the years my husband has travelled a lot for work and we were often apart for several weeks at a time. There was no room for jealousy or insecurity in our relationship. So far that aspect has never been an issue for us. I wouldn't be able to live constantly under such clouds of suspicion.

He also refuses to consider AA, but has started to go to non-AA meetings at a local addiction center. AA is not the only program out there.

I have no advice, but I would not be able to stay in such a restrictive and oppressive relationship.
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Old 08-03-2012, 09:19 AM
  # 27 (permalink)  
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Liza, I recognize that behavior as classic, literally by the book, Battering.

Domestic violence counseling for the abused partner is what's recommended, regardless of what counseling the other partner gets or doesn't get.

Couple's counseling puts the responsibility on both partners, but Battering (alcoholism, too) is the sole responsibility of the abuser.

Couple's counseling is only further devastating for the one being abused, while it serves to bolster the abuser and their techniques. This is why couple's counseling does not work for situations involving domestic violence.

The rape comment he made is master level abuser manipulation at its most insidious...flinging a bundle full of manipulations to undermine one's judgement all neatly wrapped up in one comment...I've been there, too....

...Among other things, it says you are not capable of good judgment nor determining reality from fiction because you would confuse normal intimacy from your husband as rape, and therefore the rape didn't happen. It says he is the one capable of determining your reality based on his judgments, not your faulty ones. It says he is living with an abusive crazy person and you are fortunate to have him who puts up with crazy abuse and the risk of being falsely accused. It says your pain, thoughts, feelings...you...are invalid.
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Old 08-03-2012, 09:23 AM
  # 28 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Kiana View Post
Liza, I recognize that behavior as classic, literally by the book, Battering.

Domestic violence counseling for the abused partner is what's recommended, regardless of what counseling the other partner gets or doesn't get.

Couple's counseling puts the responsibility on both partners, but Battering (alcoholism, too) is the sole responsibility of the abuser.

Couple's counseling is only further devastating for the one being abused, while it serves to bolster the abuser and their techniques. This is why couple's counseling does not work for situations involving domestic violence.

The rape comment he made is master level abuser manipulation at its most insidious...flinging a bundle full of manipulations to undermine one's judgement all neatly wrapped up in one comment...I've been there, too....

...Among other things, it says you are not capable of good judgment nor determining reality from fiction because you would confuse normal intimacy from your husband as rape, and therefore the rape didn't happen. It says he is the one capable of determining your reality based on his judgments, not your faulty ones. It says he is living with an abusive crazy person and you are fortunate to have him who puts up with crazy abuse and the risk of being falsely accused. It says your pain, thoughts, feelings...you...are invalid.
WOW
That must have come from an expert.
He wants ALL YOUR POWER.
And he wants to destroy your self-esteem in the process.
This man is lethal to the emotional well-being of his partner, and does it all under the guise of "taking care of her and their son financially".
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Old 08-03-2012, 11:27 AM
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Exactly re: Kiana.

Liz, this can't be easy for you to read, I'm guessing. I think you have lived like this for so long that you are able to normalize it in order to keep the status quo. If I may say also- I think pure fear is keeping you there. You are afraid of whether you can make it on your own and take care of your Son the way you have been. It is no doubt a daunting situation and I can appreciate what you are going through.
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Old 08-03-2012, 11:46 AM
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I'm still waiting for the part of the conversation that went well. Reading this has my head spinning so much, I felt like I was reading my own journal. I would journal and then read it when my head would stop spinning, to see what, if anything, was accomplished, and why did I feel like a train just ran over me by the end of the conversation. But, I found out, I was hit by that train.

He clearly spun everything back to you. I can see him clearly having a drink, and you look at him, and he shoots back at you, so I guess "I'm an adulterer".

My ex pulled the "rape" thing on me also, but for a different reason. Mine wanted me to agree with him that if I said "no" to sex, it wouldn't be considered rape, if he kept bothering me until I just gave in.
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Old 08-03-2012, 12:00 PM
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I keep reading your journal entry. It's freaking me out. How can the same things be happening to all of us? I'm just a little while down the road from where you are Liz, but our situation is The Same. And it's The Same for all of these other women too.

Your husbands a controlling turd by the way, I hope you leave him soon. For good. I hope I leave my controlling turd of a husband soon too. You know bunches of these other women have done it. Hell i did it for a little while and can see the joy in the others who didn't go running back. Aw hell no. If I don't go running back again, I can fly.
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Old 08-03-2012, 12:22 PM
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I have read through this thread a couple of times, why, because some of the things you guys are saying here are opening wounds that I have had from being in a relationship with an A, that and the fact that I feel such sadness for all of us.

Tuffgirl, wow, hit me right in the heart.

I wonder how we actually survive this , can't believe I did not get put away and drugged.

Liz , I feel for you, keep posting, we are here, this is so hard to hear and so hard to heal from. Your effort is unreal and the work you are doing is just amazing. Thanks for posting, I learn something everytime you do.

You are strong!!!
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Old 08-03-2012, 12:40 PM
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Yeah, this story is a hot one for me too, all kinds of triggers, and horrible similarities with the manipulation.
I want to be compassionate to you, Liz. I've posted some tough love a few times, and sometimes reacted instead of responded which I later realized was too knee-jerk reaction, but that is because I have been in a very similar place.
Controlling manipulators are the worst...hard to believe these people can simultaneously be some of the most compassionate or generous people. Jekyll and hydes.
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Old 08-03-2012, 01:26 PM
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Couple's counseling is only further devastating for the one being abused, while it serves to bolster the abuser and their techniques. This is why couple's counseling does not work for situations involving domestic violence.
THANK YOU!
This is what I've felt but not heard anyone say.
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Old 08-03-2012, 01:57 PM
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"Quote:
Couple's counseling is only further devastating for the one being abused, while it serves to bolster the abuser and their techniques. This is why couple's counseling does not work for situations involving domestic violence.

THANK YOU!
This is what I've felt but not heard anyone say."

There's a little more revealing info below that covers some of the many reasons for obtaining individual DV counseling:
Envision Counselling And Support (edit to add: after thought...I hope that link's ok here, I did not get counseling there it's just something I googled real quick to post more info.)

DV counseling and educational materials are priceless for those being abused.

Much after the fact I realized so many things, and why marriage counseling with the abuser left me feeling more defeated, more hopeless, and even more voiceless. I did eventually find my voice.
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Old 08-03-2012, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by gerryP View Post
Exactly re: Kiana.

Liz, this can't be easy for you to read, I'm guessing. I think you have lived like this for so long that you are able to normalize it in order to keep the status quo. If I may say also- I think pure fear is keeping you there. You are afraid of whether you can make it on your own and take care of your Son the way you have been. It is no doubt a daunting situation and I can appreciate what you are going through.
Thank you, Gerry. I appreciate the words of support.

One other part of yesterday that was interesting was this conversation relating to my Christianity:
Him: When was the last time you read your Bible?
Me: this morning
Him: Well, what the verse you read?
Me: It was about how God didn't give us a spirit of fear
Him: Well, that's all nice fluffy Christianity stuff but I like to get into the history and the meat of the Bible. I mean, your talking about that sappy sweet Joyce Meier type verses.

UGH! He just doesn't give me a break. I can't even read the right Bible verse so I calmly said, "You have your ways, I have mine. The Bible is the inspired word of God and I figure it's all good no matter which parts you choose to read."
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Old 08-03-2012, 02:17 PM
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Can you hear how superior he is trying to be? That is classic addiction behavior.

P.S. I used to say that my stbx had a serious case of oppositional defiant disorder with me.
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Old 08-03-2012, 02:30 PM
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Kiana: Just read the material on the link you provided above. I believe that this is excellent material for Liz to read just now---as well as a vital concept for anyone reading this board to understand.

I appreciate your spreading awareness.

dandylion
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Old 08-03-2012, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Kiana View Post
Much after the fact I realized so many things, and why marriage counseling with the abuser left me feeling more defeated, more hopeless, and even more voiceless. I did eventually find my voice.
Count me in on this too. MC backfired in my case too because my XAH was also an emotional and verbal abuser.... Who graduated to a physical abuser.

Contact my local DV shelter, at the urging of the wise folks on this board, saved my life. Without LaTeeda's and Anvilheads prodding... I would have had a hard time cracking my denial.

Things got better when I stopped talking to my XAH and started watching his actions instead.

BELIEVE what you see and feel... NOT what he says. He's manipulating you.
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Old 08-03-2012, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Tuffgirl View Post
Can you hear how superior he is trying to be? That is classic addiction behavior
OMG! this brings back sooo much(hurt) memories
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