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Old 07-24-2012, 04:16 PM
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Ah Cyranoak,
How are ya doing my friend? And your daughter?
This sucks so much. dammit all.

Beth
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Old 07-24-2012, 04:17 PM
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Hell, I'm the pot and the kettle...

...guilty as charged!!!

Originally Posted by WorkInProgress8 View Post
Can i have an order of the Pot Calling the Kettle Black with a large Condescending fruit punch?.... Im no expert Cy but it seems as if your experiences with your AW and her recent relapse have caused the resentment you have for her to ripple out towards women in general. Ill be the 1st to say, i get it. So many of us have put blame on an entire gender because of our spouses behavior. Its not fair for us to do that, but we do it. All i can say is that usually what we dislike in others is what we truely dislike about ourselves. Youve rattles off a list of things WOMEN codies do, how many of those things have you done as well?

"it's not just women. There are male codies that are exactly the same."
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Old 07-24-2012, 04:25 PM
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Fair enough...

...and I've said sexist things in the past, but in no way is this an indictment of females as a gender. It's an indictment of codependents, of which I am one, and also a frustrated response to the plethora of posts specifically from women I've seen here over the years that start out exactly that way. It is, IMHO, more representative than any other single line.

Nowhere, and I mean nowhere, did I say or imply women are stupid. IMHO, women, like men, do stupid things. Codependant women, like codependant men, do very stupid things and repeat them over and over expecting a different result.

Lastly, and sadly, I've been looking in the mirror since 2003. While what I see isn't as bad as before, it still isn't what I want to see.

Take care SadHeart.

Cyranoak

.
Originally Posted by SadHeart View Post
For me they sting because they are so sexist. Like men don't try to avoid their problems by playing knight in shining armor.

Women = stupid?

Maybe someone needs to look in the mirror?
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Old 07-24-2012, 04:28 PM
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women, like men, do stupid things. Codependant women, like codependant men, do very stupid things and repeat them over and over expecting a different result.
That's going on my fridge.
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Old 07-24-2012, 04:33 PM
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I see your point...

...and can't necessarily refute it. However, condescending is not what I was expressing at all. I was raised by a single, card-carrying, NOW Member mother and I have five sisters with whom I am close. I respect and love women more than there are words in our language to explain. What you are reading, the tone you are hearing, is frustration and anger that so many women believe this **** and act in this way.

And, of course, I have my own significant codependent issues I have not hidden in any way on this forum. That said, my wife didn't start drinking until three years after we married. There is no way in hell I would then, now, or in the future, start a relationship with an alcoholic or addict unless they were in very long term sobriety and recovery. Long-term measure in a number of years, a large number of years. Thinking about it, my internal alarm didn't stop going off until I considered the number 10.

So, while I respect your opinion a great deal, please understand that my post was absolutely not meant to be condescending or demeaning to women and, if it came off that way, I sincerely apologize.

Cyranoak

Originally Posted by wellnowwhat View Post
I know when I hear / see something that annoys me I should look to why it annoys me. I've read, left, and reread this thread and these are my thoughts.

I didn't find the original post to reflect "we codependents...." but rather "you, you women..." and that tone is what I find - what, condescending?

If the same sentiments had been expressed in a little more gender neutral way, or inclusive manner (like the original poster counted himself as someone who acted that way too), I am ok.

I do see some of me, as a human, in the overall idea of the post.
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Old 07-24-2012, 04:36 PM
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Irony and the pot and kettle all go together to make codependent stew.
sorry, that is the best i got right now.
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Old 07-24-2012, 04:42 PM
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Hey, thanks for the response!

It's great that you are concerned for your daughter and wanting to educate her about this codie trap we fall into (create?).

Wishing you nothing but the best!
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Old 07-24-2012, 04:54 PM
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WOW, this thread made me stop, think, reread and best of all giggle
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Old 07-24-2012, 05:19 PM
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Well Cyranoak, you continue the streak, none of your threads are ever boring.

I hope things are going a little better. I wish you and your family the best.

Oh, yeah, I'm going to be watching what I post here for the next several weeks as I am sure it is going to be open season on men and we are a rare species here.

Your friend,
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Old 07-24-2012, 05:43 PM
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What you are reading, the tone you are hearing, is frustration and anger that so many women believe this **** and act in this way.

When I was young I didn't give much thought to pregnancy, other than to avoid it! Then I when I became pregnant, it seemed pregnant ladies were everywhere.

When I came to the sad realization that my husband, no matter how hard he tried to keep it a huge secret from everyone, was indeed an alcoholic, suddenly I noticed alcoholics at the bank, the grocers, etc.

When I started recovery, I learned a new language and suddenly I am hearing it everywhere, in movies, radio, songs, t.v., like a new code that I've been let in on.



Could you be seeing codependency everywhere now that it has touched you?

At the few AA meetings I've attended, it was my experience that men far out-numbered women members. That could explain, although I have no facts or figures, the inverse ratio of codependent women.
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Old 07-25-2012, 06:47 AM
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Oh, yeah, I'm going to be watching what I post here for the next several weeks as I am sure it is going to be open season on men and we are a rare species here.
Just don't say anything stupid!

Cy, no hard feelings. I don't think we should ask folks to be perfectly politically correct all time, but I did want to take a pause and probe to see what that was about. It gave me pause because of everything else going on in your world.

I hope everything is okay. Or well enough.

xo
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Old 07-25-2012, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Learn2Live View Post
Eh, don't take it personally. What someone else thinks about me is none of my business. Plus, women are most definitely the smarter sex.
And yet had his diatribe been about blacks or immigrants or another group it would not have been tolerated. It was not about codependents: it was specifically against codependent WOMEN. Would we tolerate an amusing slam against codependent blacks here?

If he wanted to make a point about codependency, why not stay with what he really knows best: codependent men? Or just make it gender neutral?

The best way for him to teach his daughter about codependency is for him to rid himself of it. She's being taught codependency by his own performance.

It was just a misogynist post imho.

What he thinks of women IS his business and not mine; what he WRITES in public about women, he makes open for public opinion, and my opinion is this was a post that should be removed because it's sexist and offensive.
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Old 07-25-2012, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by SadHeart View Post
And yet had his diatribe been about blacks or immigrants or another group it would not have been tolerated. It was not about codependents: it was specifically against codependent WOMEN. Would we tolerate an amusing slam against codependent blacks here?

If he wanted to make a point about codependency, why not stay with what he really knows best: codependent men? Or just make it gender neutral?

The best way for him to teach his daughter about codependency is for him to rid himself of it. She's being taught codependency by his own performance.

It was just a misogynist post imho.

What he thinks of women IS his business and not mine; what he WRITES in public about women, he makes open for public opinion, and my opinion is this was a post that should be removed because it's sexist and offensive.
I'm sorry you are offended and upset, SadHeart. I understand how you feel. I honestly don't think Cyranoak meant any offense. I don't know how much research has been done on whether or not African American people or immigrants are more inclined to be codependent than other folks in the general population. I think it has, though, been determined that women tend to caretake more often than men. And that men tend to be alcoholic and drug addicted more than women. I don't know why this is so but someone pointed out it is part of our culture. I also believe it is part of the disease.

Please don't let this one post discourage you.
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Old 07-25-2012, 10:12 AM
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One thing I remember an old timer at Alanon said to me, hurting people say hurtful things.

I don't know if this helps but it is something to keep in mind on this forum.

Your friend,
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Old 07-25-2012, 11:35 AM
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It seems to me that everyone has now had a chance to have their say. Since this thread has turned into a discussion of power tools, sandwiches, and SciFi trivia, instead of recovery, I'm going to close it for now.
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