I'm feeling very guilty.
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I'm feeling very guilty.
I'm Still so sad today. AH and I emailed about accounts and such again today and we will speak tonight. I feel another breakdown coming on. I have an al anon meeting tonight, I hope it helps.
I feel I have no choice but to move forward with the divorce because he won't get help for alcoholism. He has refused to acknowledge that alcohol has caused problems in our marriage (mostly him picking fights when hes drunk, but also accompanying communication barriers and problems while sober); so many of our conversations the last 6 weeks are him trying to convince me he doesn't have a drinking problem. Our ex-marital counselor/my counselor thinks AHs alcoholism is cause of all our marital problems. We saw him for 18 months. He said if its a drunken argument every once in a while then maybe there's not an alcohol problem; but all of our problems can be traced back to his alcoholism.
AH has been so selfish since we've been separated, he hasn't tried to work on our marriage at all. He's been dishonest and cold. I get physically disturbed thinking about some of our interactions and how inhuman he's been the last five months.
So why do I feel guilty? I said mean things to him last week: he was selfish and would never change and this relationship has never been what I wanted or needed. I had been so patient and understanding, working on myself through al anon and counseling and researching. I thought last week I had done everything I could to save the marriage so I could walk away when the time comes.
I think I'm scared of starting over and ever finding anyone I can start a family with. I'm scared what AH will reveal during the divorce process, what will hurt me next?
I feel I have no choice but to move forward with the divorce because he won't get help for alcoholism. He has refused to acknowledge that alcohol has caused problems in our marriage (mostly him picking fights when hes drunk, but also accompanying communication barriers and problems while sober); so many of our conversations the last 6 weeks are him trying to convince me he doesn't have a drinking problem. Our ex-marital counselor/my counselor thinks AHs alcoholism is cause of all our marital problems. We saw him for 18 months. He said if its a drunken argument every once in a while then maybe there's not an alcohol problem; but all of our problems can be traced back to his alcoholism.
AH has been so selfish since we've been separated, he hasn't tried to work on our marriage at all. He's been dishonest and cold. I get physically disturbed thinking about some of our interactions and how inhuman he's been the last five months.
So why do I feel guilty? I said mean things to him last week: he was selfish and would never change and this relationship has never been what I wanted or needed. I had been so patient and understanding, working on myself through al anon and counseling and researching. I thought last week I had done everything I could to save the marriage so I could walk away when the time comes.
I think I'm scared of starting over and ever finding anyone I can start a family with. I'm scared what AH will reveal during the divorce process, what will hurt me next?
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
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I think the long and short of it is, you CANNOT successfully work on a marriage or other relationship until the alcoholism is addressed. And if your partner is unwilling to even ADMIT that there is a problem with alcoholism, well, you may as well be married to a giant chimpanzee. Right? Because chimpanzees may be cute and all but (1) they are destructive, not to mention violent and (2) they don't understand English so they can't possibly Accept that they are alcoholics, no matter what you tell them. And (3) eventually, living with a chimpanzee you are sooner or later going to have to buy adult diapers because those f'ers pee all over the place and eventually lose control of their bowels, JUST LIKE ALCOHOLICS.
...I hope you're at least smiling now...
Me personally, I would feel guilty about what you describe because (1) I treated him poorly by saying some mean things. That's why our moms always taught us, "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all." Moms teach us that not to protect the OTHER person, but to protect US. And because (2) I would feel ultimately responsible for making the marriage work. Because isn't marriage the woman's domain in our culture? And aren't I just so codependent that I feel (even if I don't think about consciously) that I am in control of the world? That "If I just ABC, then XYZ will result."
You are not responsible for what you likely see as the "failure" of your marriage. THE DISEASE OF ALCOHOLISM IS. Give yourself a break. Look at all the things you did to try to help this person and at the same time, manage a relationship with Crazy. Be kind to yourself. List out your strengths and your positives. Give the alcoholic over to your Higher Power.
(((hugs))) This too shall pass.
...I hope you're at least smiling now...
Me personally, I would feel guilty about what you describe because (1) I treated him poorly by saying some mean things. That's why our moms always taught us, "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all." Moms teach us that not to protect the OTHER person, but to protect US. And because (2) I would feel ultimately responsible for making the marriage work. Because isn't marriage the woman's domain in our culture? And aren't I just so codependent that I feel (even if I don't think about consciously) that I am in control of the world? That "If I just ABC, then XYZ will result."
You are not responsible for what you likely see as the "failure" of your marriage. THE DISEASE OF ALCOHOLISM IS. Give yourself a break. Look at all the things you did to try to help this person and at the same time, manage a relationship with Crazy. Be kind to yourself. List out your strengths and your positives. Give the alcoholic over to your Higher Power.
(((hugs))) This too shall pass.
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Thanks L2L, you made me laugh! I needed some support today as the little pangs if doubt set in, like maybe he's really not an alcoholic, I'm not doing the right thing, there's more I can do, on and on.
Outolunch, you are spot on that I am empowering him to hurt me. I don't know how to NOT do that.
Outolunch, you are spot on that I am empowering him to hurt me. I don't know how to NOT do that.
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I can't have rational conversations with AH about our relationship. Constant blame shifting, deflecting attention away from his own behavior. Why, after five months of these bizarre and frustrating conversations, do I think he'll come to his senses?
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
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Because you are expecting "normal." Because you have strong feelings for this person and still, in your heart, want it to work. Because you saw the future with this person and it's hard to let go of your hopes and dreams. Because you want to see the good in people, despite what is staring you in the face. Because you have been manipulated and controlled by a person obsessed and controlled by alcohol and/or drugs. Maybe one of the above? All of the above are what make it hard for me to Let Go.
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All of the above L2L. Thanks for your support. Expecting "normal" is what led to so much of my heartache and disappointments throughout our entire r/s. Something always felt "off", even since we were dating. I couldn't pin point what was bothering me and didn't take time to examine what I now know to be red flags. Lesson learned for my next r/s.
Last night I got the guilt trip for thinking he's an alcoholic. I said all of our marital problems can be traced back to alcohol. He suggested that my insecurities and anger are problems. I'm seeing him later. I will be strong and not get sucked into these conversations. And frankly I'm tired of hearing how great he feels mentally and physically because of all the running he's doing. I can't continue to try to make sense out of crazy.
Last night I got the guilt trip for thinking he's an alcoholic. I said all of our marital problems can be traced back to alcohol. He suggested that my insecurities and anger are problems. I'm seeing him later. I will be strong and not get sucked into these conversations. And frankly I'm tired of hearing how great he feels mentally and physically because of all the running he's doing. I can't continue to try to make sense out of crazy.
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
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Originally Posted by mmk11 
All of the above L2L. Thanks for your support. Expecting "normal" is what led to so much of my heartache and disappointments throughout our entire r/s. Something always felt "off", even since we were dating. I couldn't pin point what was bothering me and didn't take time to examine what I now know to be red flags. Lesson learned for my next r/s.
Last night I got the guilt trip for thinking he's an alcoholic. I said all of our marital problems can be traced back to alcohol. He suggested that my insecurities and anger are problems. I'm seeing him later. I will be strong and not get sucked into these conversations. And frankly I'm tired of hearing how great he feels mentally and physically because of all the running he's doing. I can't continue to try to make sense out of crazy.
Last night I got the guilt trip for thinking he's an alcoholic. I said all of our marital problems can be traced back to alcohol. He suggested that my insecurities and anger are problems. I'm seeing him later. I will be strong and not get sucked into these conversations. And frankly I'm tired of hearing how great he feels mentally and physically because of all the running he's doing. I can't continue to try to make sense out of crazy.
Yes, alcoholics and addicts want you to feel sorry for them, feel badly about the relationship, accept that all the bad was YOUR fault, feel guilty for everything you ever did "wrong" or for not doing what you could have done, see how great they are doing, see what you are missing. It is a mind-game and you have to strengthen your mind and your heart against them. Living with an alcoholic or addict, you live in a very sick world. Living in a sick world, with sick people, will make you sick. You have to get Reality back. Find your Reality. Find your power. Surround yourself with people who are uplifting, supportive, and who can remind you of Reality. (((hugs))) I am with you.
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L2L I can't thank you enough for your support and for sharing your knowledge. You can put into words exactly what I'm dealing with! You put it perfectly that he wants to show me what Im missing out on.
He may not be drinking and smoking pot as much (or so he says) but he ALWAYS cycles back up to heavier using. Always. I've seen the cycle so many times, he always uses more eventually. Now that I'm not around for him to take it out on, there will be someone else- a family member, coworker, himself, SOMEBODY.
I know that underneath my AH's "positive frame of mind" and "feeling so physically and mentally well" that really he is a mess. Underneath it all, he is carrying guilt, remorse, shame, and resentment unlike I could ever possibly fathom. I should be thankful I can recognize my feelings, FEEL them and deal with them.
He said he was an absolute wreck on Tuesday(our anniversary). That made me feel better that his heart is still there for me. But love vs.addiction? I'm screwed.
He may not be drinking and smoking pot as much (or so he says) but he ALWAYS cycles back up to heavier using. Always. I've seen the cycle so many times, he always uses more eventually. Now that I'm not around for him to take it out on, there will be someone else- a family member, coworker, himself, SOMEBODY.
I know that underneath my AH's "positive frame of mind" and "feeling so physically and mentally well" that really he is a mess. Underneath it all, he is carrying guilt, remorse, shame, and resentment unlike I could ever possibly fathom. I should be thankful I can recognize my feelings, FEEL them and deal with them.
He said he was an absolute wreck on Tuesday(our anniversary). That made me feel better that his heart is still there for me. But love vs.addiction? I'm screwed.
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For me, the alcoholism was a deal breaker. The counselor backed me up on that by saying she would not do marriage counseling with us if he was not in active recovery (ie not drinking and working a program of his choice).
I still had the feelings you described but the active alcoholism was my permission slip. I also had to come to terms with the fact that he had his thoughts and perceptions and I had mine. We were never going to meet in the middle. I would never ever get any validation from him. He would not and could not see my side. Period, end of story. He and I had been a team for a long long time. We were each other's validation so it was a concept I had to spend some time on.
In looking back I think a lot of the guilt, fear, and panic were because I had so much trouble identifying and addressing my own feelings. See - I felt his. If I did something that hurt him (judged by the way he acted or by my own notions) I would panic. Every fiber of my being was screaming 'no' and 'fix it'. I spent zero time trying to figure out what I was feeling much less taking responsibility for it. I'd hit my bottom and decided to leave, yet when I cried I was crying for him - not me. Before I decided to leave I spent hours crying in the shower because of my situation and the unhappiness, stress, and confusion I was experiencing but I did not identify any of my emotions. I did not identify them or take responsibility for them. I was stuck.
My co-dependency resulted in a huge huge fear of making a mistake and lots of that fear was wrapped up in my children and doing right by them. He of course knows this about me (and knows all my other buttons) and pushed them hard. Very emotionally manipulative and abusive and the less I spoke with him, the better.
IME once I started to really work at letting him own his feelings and figuring out what my own were and how to care for myself - the guilt started to ease up. After all, if I could take responsibility for my feelings and life, so could he. I used lots of imagery. Anything that helps you place things in your circle of control and in his circle of control. Imagery that allows you to give back to him what is his. See it in your mind - not accepting the emotional weapons he sends. See yourself separating out what is yours, and what is his. If it is his, you can let it go. Send it back to him.
I still had the feelings you described but the active alcoholism was my permission slip. I also had to come to terms with the fact that he had his thoughts and perceptions and I had mine. We were never going to meet in the middle. I would never ever get any validation from him. He would not and could not see my side. Period, end of story. He and I had been a team for a long long time. We were each other's validation so it was a concept I had to spend some time on.
In looking back I think a lot of the guilt, fear, and panic were because I had so much trouble identifying and addressing my own feelings. See - I felt his. If I did something that hurt him (judged by the way he acted or by my own notions) I would panic. Every fiber of my being was screaming 'no' and 'fix it'. I spent zero time trying to figure out what I was feeling much less taking responsibility for it. I'd hit my bottom and decided to leave, yet when I cried I was crying for him - not me. Before I decided to leave I spent hours crying in the shower because of my situation and the unhappiness, stress, and confusion I was experiencing but I did not identify any of my emotions. I did not identify them or take responsibility for them. I was stuck.
My co-dependency resulted in a huge huge fear of making a mistake and lots of that fear was wrapped up in my children and doing right by them. He of course knows this about me (and knows all my other buttons) and pushed them hard. Very emotionally manipulative and abusive and the less I spoke with him, the better.
IME once I started to really work at letting him own his feelings and figuring out what my own were and how to care for myself - the guilt started to ease up. After all, if I could take responsibility for my feelings and life, so could he. I used lots of imagery. Anything that helps you place things in your circle of control and in his circle of control. Imagery that allows you to give back to him what is his. See it in your mind - not accepting the emotional weapons he sends. See yourself separating out what is yours, and what is his. If it is his, you can let it go. Send it back to him.
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
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Originally Posted by mmk11
L2L I can't thank you enough for your support and for sharing your knowledge. You can put into words exactly what I'm dealing with! You put it perfectly that he wants to show me what Im missing out on.
He may not be drinking and smoking pot as much (or so he says) but he ALWAYS cycles back up to heavier using. Always. I've seen the cycle so many times, he always uses more eventually. Now that I'm not around for him to take it out on, there will be someone else- a family member, coworker, himself, SOMEBODY.
I know that underneath my AH's "positive frame of mind" and "feeling so physically and mentally well" that really he is a mess. Underneath it all, he is carrying guilt, remorse, shame, and resentment unlike I could ever possibly fathom. I should be thankful I can recognize my feelings, FEEL them and deal with them.
He said he was an absolute wreck on Tuesday(our anniversary). That made me feel better that his heart is still there for me. But love vs.addiction? I'm screwed.
He may not be drinking and smoking pot as much (or so he says) but he ALWAYS cycles back up to heavier using. Always. I've seen the cycle so many times, he always uses more eventually. Now that I'm not around for him to take it out on, there will be someone else- a family member, coworker, himself, SOMEBODY.
I know that underneath my AH's "positive frame of mind" and "feeling so physically and mentally well" that really he is a mess. Underneath it all, he is carrying guilt, remorse, shame, and resentment unlike I could ever possibly fathom. I should be thankful I can recognize my feelings, FEEL them and deal with them.
He said he was an absolute wreck on Tuesday(our anniversary). That made me feel better that his heart is still there for me. But love vs.addiction? I'm screwed.
Yes, when they do not seek Recovery, they always eventually return to the same level they used previously. And then it gets worse, because it is progressive.
Yes, he will surround himself with enablers, and one or several of those enablers will be someone who is worse than him to compare himself to. He will also secure for himself someone to take the blame and continue to take the blame for the problems that come up in his life. I personally do not like being that person. It hurts. A lot.
Yes, I noticed over the few weeks that I was still talking to A&AXBF after the break-up started coming to a head, how he would somewhat frantically throw in things during conversation that showed that he was still holding it together. Things like, "I am going to start my own business!" and "Just got back from a run and I feel great!" But I could hear the panic in his voice, which I grew so accustomed to. I know he is only fooling himself. And perhaps the next sucker he has charmed into believing his words. I am very familiar with the way he lives his life, that is, CHAOTIC and SICK, so I know what is really going on. Sad to watch a person spiral out of control. Can't feel sorry for them, though, that's a trap.
Yes, they will tell you how much they love you and how very sick and distraught and hurt they are "without you." But protect your heart because THAT is a hook and a manipulation. Take everything they say with a grain of salt. Because what even seems to us like normal conversation is actually manipulation. It becomes their M.O. Remember, getting and using their DOC is their PRIMARY motivation in life. It will encompass his entire life eventually and it sounds to me like your X is well on his way.
(((hugs))) hope something here was helpful.
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"I still had the feelings you described but the active alcoholism was my permission slip. I also had to come to terms with the fact that he had his thoughts and perceptions and I had mine. We were never going to meet in the middle. I would never ever get any validation from him. He would not and could not see my side. Period, end of story. He and I had been a team for a long long time. We were each other's validation so it was a concept I had to spend some time on. "
Thumper, thank you for this. I like "permission slip." my AH can't meet in the middle about anything regarding our relationship. If I concede he'll ask for more; yet he makes no concessions. Typical A behavior though: black/white thinking in order to justify his actions, to maintain control (or rather the semblance of control).
"manipulation. Take everything they say with a grain of salt. Because what even seems to us like normal conversation is actually manipulation. It becomes their M.O. Remember, getting and using their DOC is their PRIMARY motivation in life. It will encompass his entire life eventually and it sounds to me like your X is well on his way."
normal just ain't gonna happen is it! I fought for normal, i cried, screamed, begged, yearned for normal. It's all about the disease. I have to keep telling myself over and over, MK it's not you it's not you it's not you. It's the disease. It will always win and all of my AH behavior will protect the disease. He's on a run away train that's going to go off the rails at some point. I don't want to be around when it does.
I think my guilt is subsiding...and I don't feel guilty about that at all! Thanks for the support!
Thumper, thank you for this. I like "permission slip." my AH can't meet in the middle about anything regarding our relationship. If I concede he'll ask for more; yet he makes no concessions. Typical A behavior though: black/white thinking in order to justify his actions, to maintain control (or rather the semblance of control).
"manipulation. Take everything they say with a grain of salt. Because what even seems to us like normal conversation is actually manipulation. It becomes their M.O. Remember, getting and using their DOC is their PRIMARY motivation in life. It will encompass his entire life eventually and it sounds to me like your X is well on his way."
normal just ain't gonna happen is it! I fought for normal, i cried, screamed, begged, yearned for normal. It's all about the disease. I have to keep telling myself over and over, MK it's not you it's not you it's not you. It's the disease. It will always win and all of my AH behavior will protect the disease. He's on a run away train that's going to go off the rails at some point. I don't want to be around when it does.
I think my guilt is subsiding...and I don't feel guilty about that at all! Thanks for the support!
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I can understand the guilt. My AW is back on the bottle again after eight months sober. The thing is, she's gotten really clever this time about hiding the booze. Daughter and I have searched in every logical place, and can't find it.
When we confront her, AW swears up and down she hasn't had a drop; that it's her medicine making her "sleepy". Of course, being the dysfunctional family we are, Daughter and I are doubting ourselves, even though we've seen her drunk enough to recognize it. Now we're feeling a bit guilty for accusing her, though deep down, I still think she's drunk.
I feel like a fool for letting myself fall for it, and letting myself get lulled into complacency during the sober time.
I think it's like you said. Normal just ain't gonna happen.
When we confront her, AW swears up and down she hasn't had a drop; that it's her medicine making her "sleepy". Of course, being the dysfunctional family we are, Daughter and I are doubting ourselves, even though we've seen her drunk enough to recognize it. Now we're feeling a bit guilty for accusing her, though deep down, I still think she's drunk.
I feel like a fool for letting myself fall for it, and letting myself get lulled into complacency during the sober time.
I think it's like you said. Normal just ain't gonna happen.
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TeM, I'm sorry you are going through that. A's have an innate ability to shame us for how we're feeling, specifically in regards to the A's behavior. It is their way of deflecting attention away from themselves and back to us. They are master manipulators! Stay strong and protect your daughter.
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Re: divorce
Hope for the best BUT be PREPARED for the worst.
I have been divorced twice, in both instances the Xs did such despicable things I would never have thought them even remotely capable of. a heap ton of unneccessary damage done to all and no reasoning about it.
The first one I was with for 17 years and the problem was not alcoholism, tho he did begin to hang that way and went full out upon our separation. I would NEVER have believed him to be capable of even 2% of the things he did. less than that really.
I still wonder at times....who was that person I was married to and very intimate with for so many years..and both of us happy for many years.
The only thing I can come up with is that he was a very dependent and passive personality and I was both the anchor and the captain.
I am not regretting the divorce..I wanted a MAN with cojones of his own.
Just the way it went down. completely and totally destructive.
BTW, the way he lied then filed for divorce for a con-lady, despite being warned by all his friends about her...showed me the true weakness of his character and values. His 0 concern for family/children. I would not care one whit about him becoming a total trainwreck had it not completely wrecked and damaged the children and costing the life of our son.
Each time his former best friend (whom I retained a friendship with) would say...he can't sink any lower than this...he surprised us and did.
Little surprise to me that he has taken to the bottle...facing up to his actions and responsibilities would be ardous and devastating and he has always gone for the path of least resistance.
The second one took me by utter surprise but this time I had the experience to act immediately to protect my interests. As in, beat him to the joint bank account in a dead heat. He hates me but should be kissing my arse as I am eligible for my portion of his VA benefits while we were separated for 5 months cross country...but I don't think I could do that to anyone, leaving them $300/month to live on.
And they may have filed, but they LOST one very special, unique and irreplacable lady....me.
and there is a part of them that knows that.
in some little back part of their brain ALL the time.
I know enough of their after stories that I could smile and say to them...boy, you sure screwed up, didn't ya?
Hope for the best BUT be PREPARED for the worst.
I have been divorced twice, in both instances the Xs did such despicable things I would never have thought them even remotely capable of. a heap ton of unneccessary damage done to all and no reasoning about it.
The first one I was with for 17 years and the problem was not alcoholism, tho he did begin to hang that way and went full out upon our separation. I would NEVER have believed him to be capable of even 2% of the things he did. less than that really.
I still wonder at times....who was that person I was married to and very intimate with for so many years..and both of us happy for many years.
The only thing I can come up with is that he was a very dependent and passive personality and I was both the anchor and the captain.
I am not regretting the divorce..I wanted a MAN with cojones of his own.
Just the way it went down. completely and totally destructive.
BTW, the way he lied then filed for divorce for a con-lady, despite being warned by all his friends about her...showed me the true weakness of his character and values. His 0 concern for family/children. I would not care one whit about him becoming a total trainwreck had it not completely wrecked and damaged the children and costing the life of our son.
Each time his former best friend (whom I retained a friendship with) would say...he can't sink any lower than this...he surprised us and did.
Little surprise to me that he has taken to the bottle...facing up to his actions and responsibilities would be ardous and devastating and he has always gone for the path of least resistance.
The second one took me by utter surprise but this time I had the experience to act immediately to protect my interests. As in, beat him to the joint bank account in a dead heat. He hates me but should be kissing my arse as I am eligible for my portion of his VA benefits while we were separated for 5 months cross country...but I don't think I could do that to anyone, leaving them $300/month to live on.
And they may have filed, but they LOST one very special, unique and irreplacable lady....me.
and there is a part of them that knows that.
in some little back part of their brain ALL the time.
I know enough of their after stories that I could smile and say to them...boy, you sure screwed up, didn't ya?
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Let's see...if they remind us of our imperfections, then we have to be less judgmental of theirs. That evens out the scoreboard for them, and we respond by feeling guilty that we were judgmental.
I think we have to escape that game entirely.
Boundaries.
I, will NOT, live with an active alcoholic.
There.
There is nothing else to debate. The debate has been shut down by my boundary.
Open yourself up to debate on whose issues are worse, and the game starts anew.
I remember something I learned in high school psych 101--
The person trying to play a game with you can't play if you refuse to send the ball back. Think of a tennis court. If one person sends the ball over the net but the other person refuses to play, the game is over.
I think we have to escape that game entirely.
Boundaries.
I, will NOT, live with an active alcoholic.
There.
There is nothing else to debate. The debate has been shut down by my boundary.
Open yourself up to debate on whose issues are worse, and the game starts anew.
I remember something I learned in high school psych 101--
The person trying to play a game with you can't play if you refuse to send the ball back. Think of a tennis court. If one person sends the ball over the net but the other person refuses to play, the game is over.
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And they may have filed, but they LOST one very special, unique and irreplaceable lady....me.
and there is a part of them that knows that.
in some little back part of their brain ALL the time.
and there is a part of them that knows that.
in some little back part of their brain ALL the time.
Only a man who is sure of himself and his cojones can have my attention.
I start out thinking they are strong emotionally, but they are not, and resent it because I am.
If you resent one of my best qualities, we can hardly be a good partnership.
Dang it Live, there has to be some good baby boomers out there!
:ghug3
Beth
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The person trying to play a game with you can't play if you refuse to send the ball back. Think of a tennis court. If one person sends the ball over the net but the other person refuses to play, the game is over.
"Send that ball back! What's the matter with you? You know how we do this!!!!"
<stomping of feet and throwing of racket>
LOL
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