Post-wedding problem
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Newport, RI
Posts: 242
Post-wedding problem
At my brother's wedding last week on a French Caribbean Island, my children and I were witness to some disturbing behavior. I made the mistake of telling my mother about it, as it was too much for me to take alone and I was so distraught and felt she should know. She is the grandmother after all. She has since shared some or all of the information with my brother and now he's mad at me. How do I respond given that I was witness to the following behavior:
1) my brother's new wife who is nursing a newborn got drunk on more than one occasion this week
2) my brother complains that his ex-wife is too protective and that his two small children from his first marriage freak when he doesn't buckle them in.
3) my brother got drunk after the wedding and insisted on taking the children into a bar/nightclub (despite my and others' insistence that it was inappropriate). While I was getting the car to drive the kids home, my 12-year old daughter pulled her 7-year old cousin (my nephew) out of the bar. Once in the safety of my car, the poor kid said he was confused.
4) My 7-year old nephew was "best man" at his father's wedding... which seems a bit inappropriate. Am I wrong? Doesn't it elevate him to grown-up status and create problems for his relationship with his own mother (my brother cheated on her and left her for his current wife). FYI: My son loves being with his same-age cousin some of the time. The problem is this boy pushes my son away and can be quite mean for no reason. He gravitates to being with grow-ups.
5) My 7-year old nephew gave a speech at the dinner saying "I knew [my new stepmother] was important when I saw pictures of her in her underwear on my dad's iPad."
6) My brother took my 7-year old son and his son snorkeling, making them swim further than their bodies could handle. Luckily, someone had a kayak and the boys could be rescued. My brother had been drinking and he likes to push limits.
7) While drunk, my brother placed his hand on my stomach three times and I had to slap his hand away. I felt gross and manhandled by my own brother. Yuck!
I don't know how to handle this situation short of cutting all contact with my brother and his family. But I would like to have the courage to write these facts to my brother.
1) my brother's new wife who is nursing a newborn got drunk on more than one occasion this week
2) my brother complains that his ex-wife is too protective and that his two small children from his first marriage freak when he doesn't buckle them in.
3) my brother got drunk after the wedding and insisted on taking the children into a bar/nightclub (despite my and others' insistence that it was inappropriate). While I was getting the car to drive the kids home, my 12-year old daughter pulled her 7-year old cousin (my nephew) out of the bar. Once in the safety of my car, the poor kid said he was confused.
4) My 7-year old nephew was "best man" at his father's wedding... which seems a bit inappropriate. Am I wrong? Doesn't it elevate him to grown-up status and create problems for his relationship with his own mother (my brother cheated on her and left her for his current wife). FYI: My son loves being with his same-age cousin some of the time. The problem is this boy pushes my son away and can be quite mean for no reason. He gravitates to being with grow-ups.
5) My 7-year old nephew gave a speech at the dinner saying "I knew [my new stepmother] was important when I saw pictures of her in her underwear on my dad's iPad."
6) My brother took my 7-year old son and his son snorkeling, making them swim further than their bodies could handle. Luckily, someone had a kayak and the boys could be rescued. My brother had been drinking and he likes to push limits.
7) While drunk, my brother placed his hand on my stomach three times and I had to slap his hand away. I felt gross and manhandled by my own brother. Yuck!
I don't know how to handle this situation short of cutting all contact with my brother and his family. But I would like to have the courage to write these facts to my brother.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 4,719
Wow. Inappropriate to say the least, irresponsible and safety risk as well. And holy cow to #5. I would be horrified if my nephew said something like that out loud, especially in those circumstances.
What can be done? Nothing. It's not your place, unfortunately, to tell these folks how to behave and be parents. But you can be a strong presence in the lives of your nephew (and any future siblings). Sounds like they will need some normalcy and encouragement as they grow up.
I have been able to limit my interactions with my siblings that I don't really care to spend time with, while remaining civil and respectful enough to have my nephews in my life. It can be done, just has to be done delicately. And requires lots of patience and tolerance!
Good luck!
~T
What can be done? Nothing. It's not your place, unfortunately, to tell these folks how to behave and be parents. But you can be a strong presence in the lives of your nephew (and any future siblings). Sounds like they will need some normalcy and encouragement as they grow up.
I have been able to limit my interactions with my siblings that I don't really care to spend time with, while remaining civil and respectful enough to have my nephews in my life. It can be done, just has to be done delicately. And requires lots of patience and tolerance!
Good luck!
~T
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Southwest
Posts: 1,207
I am triggering because that sounds so much like my children's dad except that I don't think he has a girlfriend (yet).
I wonder if you should contact the kids' mother? They are the important part of this equation. It will undoubtedly hurt your relationship with your brother, but I think she needs to know so that she can protect your kids.
This is exactly the kind of situation I face with my kids' father and it's hard, but having the evidence you described would help me go into court and request some changes or restrictions, and I think they are VERY significant.
I wonder if you should contact the kids' mother? They are the important part of this equation. It will undoubtedly hurt your relationship with your brother, but I think she needs to know so that she can protect your kids.
This is exactly the kind of situation I face with my kids' father and it's hard, but having the evidence you described would help me go into court and request some changes or restrictions, and I think they are VERY significant.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Kansas
Posts: 10,182
It's been my personal experience that when disconnecting from toxic people, I did not have to offer an explanation of why, including their behavior.
If nothing else, write a letter to your brother, but don't send it.
I have done this before when dealing with someone toxic.
I'll revisit the letter in a month, add, revise, whatever I feel I need to do with the letter at the time.
When I feel it's done, I burn it and turn it over to God.
If nothing else, write a letter to your brother, but don't send it.
I have done this before when dealing with someone toxic.
I'll revisit the letter in a month, add, revise, whatever I feel I need to do with the letter at the time.
When I feel it's done, I burn it and turn it over to God.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Newport, RI
Posts: 242
Here is his email to me... how do I respond at all? Should I be courageous and share the above list with him?
---------
I was disappointed to learn this evening that you took issue with my behavior this past week, and rather than consult me directly, you chose instead to gossip with Mom.
I will gladly and whiningly apologize for any inappropriate behavior that I may have taken while completely inebriated. Sadly I don't even recall you leaving. Nevertheless I had a great time and have few regrets.
It seems that all the counseling and self help books have not helped you understand that if you have a problem.... It's best to deal with it directly.
Enjoy yourself.
------
Here is what I want to say:
I did take my issue with you directly this week by letting you know that my children were freaked and that I felt disgusted and sad after experiencing your behavior. I was scared for the safety and well-being of not only my children but of yours as well. That you feel it is "over-protective" and "wrong" to buckle up your children and that Emma has to cry because you won't give her the time to put on her seat belt is wrong. That you would try to drag children into a a bar and treat them as "your buddy" is completely inappropriate. That my daughter had to feel scared for her cousins' safety and drag Jacques out of the nightclub was wrong.
What you do with your your health and your life is your business. It is not for me to judge or to even comment on. Until now I have said nothing to anyone about my observations. It's none of my business. But when my children are made witness to inappropriate behavior and into compromising situations, I need to speak up and sound the alarm bells. I tried to deal with you directly, but you avoided me.
---------
I was disappointed to learn this evening that you took issue with my behavior this past week, and rather than consult me directly, you chose instead to gossip with Mom.
I will gladly and whiningly apologize for any inappropriate behavior that I may have taken while completely inebriated. Sadly I don't even recall you leaving. Nevertheless I had a great time and have few regrets.
It seems that all the counseling and self help books have not helped you understand that if you have a problem.... It's best to deal with it directly.
Enjoy yourself.
------
Here is what I want to say:
I did take my issue with you directly this week by letting you know that my children were freaked and that I felt disgusted and sad after experiencing your behavior. I was scared for the safety and well-being of not only my children but of yours as well. That you feel it is "over-protective" and "wrong" to buckle up your children and that Emma has to cry because you won't give her the time to put on her seat belt is wrong. That you would try to drag children into a a bar and treat them as "your buddy" is completely inappropriate. That my daughter had to feel scared for her cousins' safety and drag Jacques out of the nightclub was wrong.
What you do with your your health and your life is your business. It is not for me to judge or to even comment on. Until now I have said nothing to anyone about my observations. It's none of my business. But when my children are made witness to inappropriate behavior and into compromising situations, I need to speak up and sound the alarm bells. I tried to deal with you directly, but you avoided me.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 3,095
I would have talked to my mother too and would not know whether or how to approach my brother if I were in your shoes and it all sounds alarming and inappropriate and it appears he is finding the one loophole that allows him to point fingers at you (the you should have come to me first) so that he can ignore his own behavior.
He can't say he will apologize for his behavior while drunk and in the same sentence say he has no regrets. If he doesn't regret taking his kids to a bar I think that a call to Child Protective Services is in order frankly.
I second the voices that say perhaps letting the kids mom know what happened is a good idea. I dread thinking that my AH will do this with my kids and that I will have no way to know and thus, recourse to protect them in the future. I think that the children's mother has the right to know but that doesn't mean you have to tell her-- just putting that out there.
I find it difficult to imagine that there is a condition of the divorce that says she agrees with her ex (your brother) taking the kids to a bar. I know in my divorce I will be damn sure to list out all the things that under no circumstances will occur and that is one. It's sad that that has to be written down and isn't understood but it appears your brothers sense of what is appropriate is pretty off.
He can't say he will apologize for his behavior while drunk and in the same sentence say he has no regrets. If he doesn't regret taking his kids to a bar I think that a call to Child Protective Services is in order frankly.
I second the voices that say perhaps letting the kids mom know what happened is a good idea. I dread thinking that my AH will do this with my kids and that I will have no way to know and thus, recourse to protect them in the future. I think that the children's mother has the right to know but that doesn't mean you have to tell her-- just putting that out there.
I find it difficult to imagine that there is a condition of the divorce that says she agrees with her ex (your brother) taking the kids to a bar. I know in my divorce I will be damn sure to list out all the things that under no circumstances will occur and that is one. It's sad that that has to be written down and isn't understood but it appears your brothers sense of what is appropriate is pretty off.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Waterford MI
Posts: 4,202
Sadly I don't even recall you leaving. Nevertheless I had a great time and have few regrets.
What regrets does he have? That he is a whiningly obnoxious drunk?
I doubt it.
My children would not get near him after having seeing him "push limits" while snorkeling with kids.
I guess I am too close to this, my father used to terrorize us as kids. And then get mean and obnoxious when one of us got scared or upset.
I think your mom must have touched a nerve, but why put you out there like that?
Ah, yes. Like I could forget what that is like.
Sigh.......
Can't control it, can't change it, can't cure it.
I would just keep mine away from him. Completely. If he asks, state your boundary about being around drunks.
Beth
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Southwest
Posts: 1,207
I said it wrong above, but I think you should tell the kids' mom.
As to the email, I would say that as someone who loves his children, you are worried for their safety. That he is an adult and can do what he wants but that they don't have that choice.
Leave your own kids out of it. You can ensure that they witness no more of his behavior, but your niece and nephew have no such protection if you don't tell their mom.
jmo. as a mom. and a lawyer.
As to the email, I would say that as someone who loves his children, you are worried for their safety. That he is an adult and can do what he wants but that they don't have that choice.
Leave your own kids out of it. You can ensure that they witness no more of his behavior, but your niece and nephew have no such protection if you don't tell their mom.
jmo. as a mom. and a lawyer.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Alaska
Posts: 2,913
Hugs, Mamaplus2kids. I'd second everything that's already been posted here. Especially the fact that talking with Mom is NOT gossiping. I'm also not sure how some one can apologize both gladly and whiningly at the same time. It's either heartfelt or it's not. If it's not heartfelt, it's not an apology. I tell DS that an apology doesn't mean anything if the behavior is continued after the apology is said.
DS is 7 years old. If AXH had taken him or takes him to bars or nightclubs, I would have grounds for asking the court to further restrict his visitation rights.
Another note is that leaving pornographic material (because that's what the pictures of the new step mom kind of are) where kids can easily see it may amount to child abuse, or at least amount to another concern that Child Protective Services would monitor. There are apps available that lock and protect 'sensitive' photos which would have eliminated the chance of the young boy from seeing those pics.
I'd especially be concerned if, on top of the photos, my brother was also touching me in a manner that made me uncomfortable. It's a large flag that he doesn't respect personal boundaries.
I've been safety planning with DS and he has a counselor he sees. In addition to general safety rules (don't talk to strangers, wear your seat belt...), one of the issues discussed is safe touch and what to do if something doesn't feel safe. None of the safety work is done stating it's in connection with AXH or his GF or her kids, but in a general manner. Even if inappropriate sexual behavior towards the children is not a concern, safety planning is never a bad idea. I know it'd be harder since they're not your children and your brother doesn't sound receptive, but it's an option.
Hugs, hugs, hugs for you, your kids and your nephews.
DS is 7 years old. If AXH had taken him or takes him to bars or nightclubs, I would have grounds for asking the court to further restrict his visitation rights.
Another note is that leaving pornographic material (because that's what the pictures of the new step mom kind of are) where kids can easily see it may amount to child abuse, or at least amount to another concern that Child Protective Services would monitor. There are apps available that lock and protect 'sensitive' photos which would have eliminated the chance of the young boy from seeing those pics.
I'd especially be concerned if, on top of the photos, my brother was also touching me in a manner that made me uncomfortable. It's a large flag that he doesn't respect personal boundaries.
I've been safety planning with DS and he has a counselor he sees. In addition to general safety rules (don't talk to strangers, wear your seat belt...), one of the issues discussed is safe touch and what to do if something doesn't feel safe. None of the safety work is done stating it's in connection with AXH or his GF or her kids, but in a general manner. Even if inappropriate sexual behavior towards the children is not a concern, safety planning is never a bad idea. I know it'd be harder since they're not your children and your brother doesn't sound receptive, but it's an option.
Hugs, hugs, hugs for you, your kids and your nephews.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Newport, RI
Posts: 242
How's this for an email?
"If you don't remember my leaving, what else have you forgotten? scaring the kids? trying to drag little children into a bar/nightclub? repeatedly placing your hand on my stomach even after I slapped your hand away? I immediately texted you how I felt and you didn't respond.
Expressing my overwhelming fear and anger about drunken and inappropriate behavior around my niece and nephew and my own children to our own mother is not gossiping. That you feel it is "over-protective" and "wrong" to buckle up your children and that Emma has to cry because you won't give her the time to put on her seat belt is wrong. That you would drag children into a a bar and treat them as "your buddy" is completely inappropriate. That you think it is okay for your wife to get drunk and then nurse a baby is wrong. That Jacques has to find nearly pornographic material on your iPad is inappropriate. This is just the beginning.
I just can't be around drunks. Sorry."
"If you don't remember my leaving, what else have you forgotten? scaring the kids? trying to drag little children into a bar/nightclub? repeatedly placing your hand on my stomach even after I slapped your hand away? I immediately texted you how I felt and you didn't respond.
Expressing my overwhelming fear and anger about drunken and inappropriate behavior around my niece and nephew and my own children to our own mother is not gossiping. That you feel it is "over-protective" and "wrong" to buckle up your children and that Emma has to cry because you won't give her the time to put on her seat belt is wrong. That you would drag children into a a bar and treat them as "your buddy" is completely inappropriate. That you think it is okay for your wife to get drunk and then nurse a baby is wrong. That Jacques has to find nearly pornographic material on your iPad is inappropriate. This is just the beginning.
I just can't be around drunks. Sorry."
Belgian Sheepdog Adictee
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: In Today
Posts: 6,101
(((((mamaplus2kids)))))
Yep, that is a pretty good, no excellent email. It is 'to the point.'
However, now that you have composed it, maybe sit back and think about your motivation behind SENDING IT. Is it just to defend yourself? Is it to try 'one more time' to get him to see the light? Is it to have a bit of 'cover your own azz' and start creating a paper trail? Or is it just to say, "I'M DONE"? , etc
Then after figuring out your 'real motivations' for sending said email, and if you are comfortable with your motives, then send it.
I certainly understand your discomfort with his actions. I do not know, since you live in Switzerland and this happened in the Caribbean what legally could be done.
I M H O relaying your fears and concerns to your mother IS NOT GOSSIPING, these are her grandchildren.
Remember, we are here for you in spirit!!!!
Love and hugs,
Yep, that is a pretty good, no excellent email. It is 'to the point.'
However, now that you have composed it, maybe sit back and think about your motivation behind SENDING IT. Is it just to defend yourself? Is it to try 'one more time' to get him to see the light? Is it to have a bit of 'cover your own azz' and start creating a paper trail? Or is it just to say, "I'M DONE"? , etc
Then after figuring out your 'real motivations' for sending said email, and if you are comfortable with your motives, then send it.
I certainly understand your discomfort with his actions. I do not know, since you live in Switzerland and this happened in the Caribbean what legally could be done.
I M H O relaying your fears and concerns to your mother IS NOT GOSSIPING, these are her grandchildren.
Remember, we are here for you in spirit!!!!
Love and hugs,
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Newport, RI
Posts: 242
Originally Posted by laurie6781 
Is it just to defend yourself? Is it to try 'one more time' to get him to see the light? Is it to have a bit of 'cover your own azz' and start creating a paper trail? Or is it just to say, "I'M DONE"? , etc
1) Don't I need to respond to his email? If not... then I will meditate further on the need to send.
2) I have the feeling he doesn't remember WHAT he did when drunk. Shouldn't someone say something? Perhaps it's not my place. Someone needs to tell him what he did.
3) Covering my own azz... yes... a bit... but I am willing to let it go if number 1 and 2 are not important.
4) I hadn't thought of the legal ramifications... could I have problems if I don't say anything? I.e. the mother of my niece and nephew finds out (maybe through her own children... or through others at the wedding... there were some fights between my brother and his friends)
Belgian Sheepdog Adictee
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: In Today
Posts: 6,101
Thank you for replying. My questions were more for you to write about and think about and then decide.
Send, don't send is up to you. I s just writing the email enough? or Do yu need to send.
Based on what you have already posted, about his attitudes and actions, I would almost make 'book' that
1) he will deny those events happened
and
2) he really does not care.
Will the email be enough 'closure' for you to go 'no contact' and not allow you children to be sujected to that kind of behavior again?
More questions to think and write about in your journal, lol
Love and hugs,
Send, don't send is up to you. I s just writing the email enough? or Do yu need to send.
Based on what you have already posted, about his attitudes and actions, I would almost make 'book' that
1) he will deny those events happened
and
2) he really does not care.
Will the email be enough 'closure' for you to go 'no contact' and not allow you children to be sujected to that kind of behavior again?
More questions to think and write about in your journal, lol
Love and hugs,
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Newport, RI
Posts: 242
Originally Posted by kiki5711
Is this the first time you felt uncomfortable around him while he's drunk?
For all the reckless things you've mentioned that he's done, I'm sure it's not the first time.
For all the reckless things you've mentioned that he's done, I'm sure it's not the first time.
As we know, alcoholism is a progressive disease. He may have progressed to a point that is uncomfortable for me to be around.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Newport, RI
Posts: 242
Originally Posted by laurie6781
1) he will deny those events happened
and
2) he really does not care.
and
2) he really does not care.
It will be easy to have no contact while I am in a different country. I may avoid visiting the USA for a while, as I have a family with "alcohol" issues... my mother, my brother, my ex-husband... it's really an epidemic!
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
