Hopeworks

So true... and someone posted this a few days ago:

"It's hard to shake an alcoholic."

RedCandle

GAW!!!

So...I need someone to talk me down from my ledge!

I said everything we talked about here...I stated my boundaries, he stated his wants. I stated that I was holding him to a higher recovery expectation.

Communication was scattered but on-going. I felt good about everything...and THEN...in my last email, I stated that my life CANNOT have alcohol in it and I won't be living out the rest of my years with someone who abuses it...so I need you (him) to know that going forward...

This is what I get back:
Why did you write all those things? Why did you say you missed me? Why did you continue communicating with me when you were not going to do anything? Why did you choose other people, places, and things again? Did you receive some sort of joy for pulling me back in to push me away again? Do you realize what you have done? Do you realize the pain you have caused again? Why? Why did you tell me to have faith? Why did you say that you love me? Your “love” is ******* cruel…. Goodbye.

Ugh, not going to "do" anything? I've only been trying to support him through his "recovery" that he just tossed out the door. I"ve only had to tell him 500 times that I love him.

GAW! I'm sure I'm acting like a total butt head right now but I just get so frustrated!

Maybe I *am* being a selfish jerk?
Is this typical of communication when they are drinking???
Its almost scary to try and communicate with him...I say the wrong thing and I'm Medusa, Evil Sober Demon!

RedCandle

Anvil! Gollum was a damn BEAUTY QUEEN compared to *this!*

Unreal!

Snivelyass...HA! I love it! That made me feel better :-)

I just...UGH, I just want to choke hold him sometimes! AND I DONT EVEN KNOW HOW TO CHOKE HOLD!!

laurie6781

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

I agree TOTALLY with what Anvil said.

Go NO CONTACT. Your are TALKING TO A BOTTLE and THE BOTTLE sent you the email.

You can stay on the CRAZY ROLLER COASTER, or you can walk away. He has violated your boundary of:

So now, you can go NO CONTACT.

Look, if our 'love' could 'fix' the A NONE OF US WOULD BE HERE. He is not about to change when there are so many prospective ENABLERS out there that will allow him to keep drinking in comfort.

J M H O

Love and hugs,

RedCandle

Just got back from a 3 hour walk to clear my frustration.
Its still there...but my shins now hurt more than my head :-)

Anvil...what finally made you turn it all around?
As mad as I am, I'm also a bit in awe.
Hold him up to a "normal" person and its INCREDIBLE what addiction can do...worse it seems...a RELAPSE.
He sure as hell wasn't born this way!

Laurie, your love and hugs mean a lot. I never thought about it that way...I AM talking to a BOTTLE!

But when I think that way, I start to feel bad. Like, here I am going off on him...but its not "him"...its the addiction (the bottle). I guess I just need to NOT "go off." I'm usually pretty good...today I lost it. Watching 4 months of progress tank and then getting that email was WAY too much.

How do you know when you are talking to "them" versus the bottle?

I guess the good news out of all of this is...that I finally committed to going to Alanon the first time tomorrow. I've always been in denial about going. But after seeing myself rage in reaction, and what I was feeling all through my body...yeah...I need to go...

Terminally Unique

Consider telling him that since alcoholism is effectively a perverse love affair with the bottle, that for him to keep drinking is akin to first-class adultery. It may sound harsh, but I think you'll agree that even the marital bond cannot compete with addiction. For him to expect you to choose him from where he presently stands is not any different than to expect you to choose him while he keeps a mistress or two on the side.

laurie6781

If they are still drinking, or if they have had a drink in the last 3 months then you are TALKING TO THE BOTTLE.

Step away, go on about working on you.

If you two are 'meant to be' then it won't happen until he has been in recovery for several years, cleaned up the wreckage of his past and his ACTIONS are showing you he has changed.

Your choice, move on, work on you and have a pretty good serene and peaceful life, or

Continue to get on and off the ROLLER COASTER and drive yourself, yet alone what he does, TOTALLY INSANE.

J M H O

Love and hugs,

blackstrat6

You could take the goodies to an alanon meeting... Maybe they will share their coffee..

FindingJoy

Oh I so understand the crazy train. As are masters at making us feel bad so they can feel better about the way they are living their life. The catch....WE let them make us feel bad. We have a choice on how we react regardless of what they do or ont do.

Example: I just broke my one month NO CONTACT after seeing him at a conference. After I saw them I now keep checking my email to see if he sent me one. When I was NC before I didn't think to check and he was emailig all the time (of course not respecting my boundaries ).

My RXAB got a "fix" of me and now has dropped off again. How interesting is it that I'm allowing HIS behavior negatively affect my day. After all it is MY choice to have a good or bad day regardless of what anyone does/says.

CanfixONLYme

Hi redcandle - holy crap... It stills surprises me after all this time that addicts are not very "original". They seem to all have the same capacity of saying stupid sh*t to confuse and cause chaos in the person(s) they "supposedly" love...

My soon to be AH has said what your crazy man has spewed out almost word for word!!! I agree with all who have posted - no contact is the best medicine for you as the UN-merry go-round will keep spinning and he'll be happily riding it as long as he knows you won't get off... I personally got too sick of the round and round and round and practically threw myself off the damn thing!

Ja - emotionally I was (still am somewhat) pretty damaged but I swear to God ---- it passed and I started feeling like ME again without all the crap of addiction clouding my soul.

My AHs poison is crack/heroin but he usually starts with an appetizer of porn and alcohol to get him going. I've posted in the family of substance abusers forum, but it's all the same... Crazy crappy addiction that we HAVE to walk away from before it makes us as sick as the addict themselves.

Big hugs to you!!

littlemutt

Oh, relapses... honestly, that was probably the main dealbreaker when I left my XABF. I was all about rooting for him to get sober and helping him along (and being very codependent about it, of course) - but I thought, once we get to sobriety, I will be eternally afraid of him relapsing. I already live in fear of another relapse - my dad has been sober 20 years and I have nightmares that he's drunk again. 20 years! So really, depending on your personal comfort and trust levels, you might never really feel you're in the clear.

I just realized I used "we" to describe my ex's sobriety. Ah, off to read Codependent No More...

ETA: This is certainly not to say that it's hopeless or that he's bound to relapse again. But rather, it is to illustrate that if you're going to be involved, it is likely to be a concern that sticks around.

RedCandle

Laurie...you got that right...three months its STILL the bottle. The first three WEEKS he was sober, it was like he was a brand new person. I was AMAZED! And of course, filled with renewed hope that everything was going to be great from there on out.

Very quickly I found that even though the booze was gone...all of the crazy talking was still there. HUGE insecurities...yelling...emotional rollercoaster. I learned a little bit about PAWS on this site. Maybe that was it. Or maybe he's just not a nice person!

I'm choosing to move on. I"m 27 years old. I need to stop thinking he's the last man that will come into my life.

Blackstrat I love your idea!! Now I know where to take all my baking! ALANON! Never thought that would be it's destination. But if they've got coffee...I've got coffee cake. Tonight will be my first night. I'm somewhat terrified. Mostly because I know that I will leave with a lot of emotions churning...and I'm pretty exhausted from this week.

Canonlyfixme...I hear ya! He says the same thing every time, you'd think I'd stop reacting! He loves saying "Goodbye"....this morning I got this in my Inbox:

"Do I want goodbye? No. I don’t want any of this. You know what I want. You have chosen other people, places, and things: not me. You choose to live like this; I choose to no longer accept your abuse, I can’t do anything about the things you have chosen or choosing.
The decisions you have made and how you are living has made you cruel. Only you can change that if you want…."

Then there was a long rant about Corinthians 13, "Love is patient, love is kind...."

Luckily, I'm still so angry that my heart has not softened to this "pull."

Terminally, I took your advice. Honestly, your perspective on relapse behavior is my guardian angel of insight!

Littlemut, I worry about that too. Last night I asked myself, "Where do I want this to go and is that viable?" Can I realistically say that I can manage the constant fear of relapse? At THIS POINT...no. Of course, I have no idea where we are headed in the future...but TODAY, I can't see the benefit in holding on as closely as I have.

It just....SUCKS! How The Person and The Bottle can be SO different inside the SAME person is mind boggling.

Terminally Unique

His addiction is quite literally a living thing, with a one-track mind. It can be creative, to be sure, but it is pretty stupid in and of itself. It has to 'borrow' from his intelligence, and when it does this, it inevitably reveals its hand. If you take a close look at what he sent you again, you'll notice it has revealed precisely what it does not want to hear. It is taking preemptive action, so to speak, so that you will never say what he just said. Change just one thing, and you get the following:
Addiction expands into the tolerance that surrounds it, and it must create tolerance in order to survive. This is what all this talk of patience and kindness is about, which invariably means patience and kindness towards more drinking. You may rest assured that you are 100% innocent with regard to his past, present, and future drinking, however, and that you carry no burden of change on account of it. That burden can only be carried by the addicted person. The original man you once knew is still in there somewhere, but it is up to him to step forward and reclaim his dignity.

RedCandle

Oh my God...Terminally...that just made me burst out crying at my desk....

He is talking to HIMSELF!! That's incredible...I would have never looked at it like that....

Terminally Unique

Yes, that's correct. There are two personas in one body, and his addiction talks to him in his head, sometimes as a loving partner, other times with G-d like authority. Right now, they are effectively joined at the hip, though, and he's not able distinguish one from the other.

brownhorse

Good luck at your first meeting and don't be nervous. But, be ready! You are going to talk about YOU, not him! First things I learned is don't try to talk rationally to an irrational person! Every time you email back, you are feeding him. Once you start living for you, it gets easier. Mine actually started calling me selfish.

You are so young with so much future. Please don't end up like me! I am 35 and in your postion but with 2 beautiful children that get hurt every time we have these silly fights. I am leaving him and it has taken alot of time, but you still have a chance to not live like this the rest of your life. Be strong! There is someone healthy out there for you. Listen to everyone that has been married to an alcoholic. There first boundary is usually to never date one again! If I wanted to put up with that abuse, I would of stayed with him. Its a lifelong battle, I will not fight except now I have kids to fight for and keep out of danger. (Sorry, SR if that was too much advice. Delete me and I will know for next time.)

NYCDoglvr

I'm so sorry you're in this pain. It's certainly not uncommon for recovering alcoholics to relapse. Some just give and others do a self-inventory to see what they could do better next time. I think it's a good idea to give him space, just let him go for the time being. There is nothing you can say or do that will make a difference anyway.

RedCandle

Thanks NYC...

After "laying down the no-tolerance law"...he called today.
He hasn't called in TWO MONTHS...everything has been through email.

I braced myself for a hateful raging voicemail...but he was very calm, very soft spoken.

He said a few times how much he loved me, how I was the love of his life and he's sorry that I "chose other people, places and things"

Then he said Goodbye (his favorite word).

I didn't call back and don't intend to.

I'm pretty sure this is just the rollercoaster cranking back up (??)
He knows I forgive very easily....this time MUST be different. It WILL be different!

So I'm absolutely going to take your (and all) advice...give him space...give ME space...

I'm actually *really* looking forward to this first meeting tonight.

Do I need to bring anything?
Dress code?
Do you have to talk on the first time???

silkspin

RedCandle, Terminally Unique has really given me lots of aha moments with his posts - truly insightful and bang on.

You talk about how the person and the bottle could live within one person - when we talk about it metaphorically like that we tend to think that we are dealing with a person who is similar to us. Then we scratch our heads that when we do 'normal' things we get such abnormal responses back. TU is right, it's not irrational at all, it is addiction. This point, although I already know on some intellectual level, was driven home recently through some of TU's points and some additional reading that I've done. For me, it's like watching the show Intervention, which incidentally my A watches (and maybe on some level he identifies with it but not on a rational level). When I would see people addicted to crack and other illegal substances, I would SEE the addiction, and all of their horrible behaviours were understandable given the strength of addiction and seeking the next high. Made sense when I looked at them, but somehow it translated differently when I looked at my A. But addiction is the same, the substance of choice is different and in our case happens to be legal and socially acceptable. Read and learn about addiction, know that everything he does is because he is addicted. If there isn't a true 'shift' in their heart of heart, then most of it is white knuckling until the next 'relapse' be in 1 month or 10 years.

This perspective has enormously helped me. My A struggles, has relapsed several times. Now I finally get it. He is still addicted. As long as he is addicted he will continue doing things us unaddicted people consider out of character, inappropriate, maladjusted etc. For him, it's normal because his addicted brain tells him it's normal and he hasn't had enough to turn off that voice.

Al Anon will help, good luck with your meeting.

StarCat

Bring yourself, dressed as you are, and do whatever you feel comfortable doing. You don't have to talk if you don't want to, and you're allowed to talk if you do want to. Most meetings also have a communal tissue box, since tears are not uncommon in Al-Anon meetings.

Have a good meeting tonight. Al-Anon has really helped me... As great as SR can be, there's also no replacement for some good face-to-face contact with others going through the same situation.