Turning it on or off - a baffling switch
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Turning it on or off - a baffling switch
AH has been 'in recovery' for 3 years. I put it in quotes because about once a year he's had a relapse. Each time it seemed he tried to convince himself he'd be ok and slippery slope....he'd realize and go back to AA. Never liked AA though; couldn't really get into it even though he went to meetings and had a sponsor, and eventually dropped it. As a 30-something, couldn't relate to the mostly older and terribly tragic people in the group. Whatever, his life.
Instead of AA he tried a psychiatrist, who suggested he may not really be a true A but has a lack of coping skills that make him turn to the only thing that has worked in the past to help him cope. Don't know much else about the sessions, but after several months he stopped b/c it was very expensive and he found that although it was helpful, he had plateaud and felt wasn't really benefitting. Again, his life. I hoped it helped some, to deal with his personal demons.
Anyhow, tonight we had a spaghetti supper at the local community centre for my nephew's school. They had bar service for the parents. AH was sitting with my BIL and a friend. The friend got up to get beers, and asked if AH wanted one. He said no thanks, he doesn't really drink much anymore. And then, as the guy looked around for his drink tickets and was chatting with BIL, AH changed his mind and said, yeah ok. That led to 3 more, at a friggen kids school event for god sakes. Wasn't even like we were at a normal adult function where everyone was swinging back. And, on top of that, he'd said no, noone gave a second thought (he often feels like he's been judged if he's not part of the drinking crowd). He'd had his out, and yet, the switch turned on, and here we went. He decided to go back to BIL's place to watch the game; truly I don't expect to see him at all (will likely pass out on couch). Back story - we don't go out much - we moved back to my home city, we live pretty far out from stuff and only have one car and he hasn't made too many close friendships - so much of his sobriety does likely rely on not having to be exposed to it. I witnessed first hand that when faced with it, he gave it a go and then that ability folded quickly and there he was, accepting. Twisting a rubber arm, really.
I'm firmly in Al Anon, we've come a long way, he mostly has his wits about him although still hasn't found peace with considering life long sobriety. It's just baffling to me how this effin disease works and it's saddening to me how little it takes to slip into something he knows logically to be destructive. But when that switch flips, it's all gone. He pushes it all away until it comes crashing down full force next day. And the really weird thing is that it doesn't always happen, which, as a psychology major myself, really makes me wonder about what goes on in their brains. He tells me sometimes that when he gets it in his head, it's like an itch he has to scratch. The more he fights it the worse it gets. Funny, sounds a bit like OCD to me, an anxiety disorder. The obsession builds until a person is compelled to do the behaviour they've adopted to subside the obsession.
For me, it's hard not to be able to feel like we can ever be sociable without it being such a struggle for him. It's a loss I grieve and still haven't come to terms with - even going out to dinner can be hard, and yet something like that could be so special given we have a 4 yr old and rarely get out as a couple.
Needed to get that out, thanks for virtually listening. An added note that I don't often sit and analyze him, I just feel gross from what happened tonight and taking the healthy route of venting to others, not to him. His path is his own.
Instead of AA he tried a psychiatrist, who suggested he may not really be a true A but has a lack of coping skills that make him turn to the only thing that has worked in the past to help him cope. Don't know much else about the sessions, but after several months he stopped b/c it was very expensive and he found that although it was helpful, he had plateaud and felt wasn't really benefitting. Again, his life. I hoped it helped some, to deal with his personal demons.
Anyhow, tonight we had a spaghetti supper at the local community centre for my nephew's school. They had bar service for the parents. AH was sitting with my BIL and a friend. The friend got up to get beers, and asked if AH wanted one. He said no thanks, he doesn't really drink much anymore. And then, as the guy looked around for his drink tickets and was chatting with BIL, AH changed his mind and said, yeah ok. That led to 3 more, at a friggen kids school event for god sakes. Wasn't even like we were at a normal adult function where everyone was swinging back. And, on top of that, he'd said no, noone gave a second thought (he often feels like he's been judged if he's not part of the drinking crowd). He'd had his out, and yet, the switch turned on, and here we went. He decided to go back to BIL's place to watch the game; truly I don't expect to see him at all (will likely pass out on couch). Back story - we don't go out much - we moved back to my home city, we live pretty far out from stuff and only have one car and he hasn't made too many close friendships - so much of his sobriety does likely rely on not having to be exposed to it. I witnessed first hand that when faced with it, he gave it a go and then that ability folded quickly and there he was, accepting. Twisting a rubber arm, really.
I'm firmly in Al Anon, we've come a long way, he mostly has his wits about him although still hasn't found peace with considering life long sobriety. It's just baffling to me how this effin disease works and it's saddening to me how little it takes to slip into something he knows logically to be destructive. But when that switch flips, it's all gone. He pushes it all away until it comes crashing down full force next day. And the really weird thing is that it doesn't always happen, which, as a psychology major myself, really makes me wonder about what goes on in their brains. He tells me sometimes that when he gets it in his head, it's like an itch he has to scratch. The more he fights it the worse it gets. Funny, sounds a bit like OCD to me, an anxiety disorder. The obsession builds until a person is compelled to do the behaviour they've adopted to subside the obsession.
For me, it's hard not to be able to feel like we can ever be sociable without it being such a struggle for him. It's a loss I grieve and still haven't come to terms with - even going out to dinner can be hard, and yet something like that could be so special given we have a 4 yr old and rarely get out as a couple.
Needed to get that out, thanks for virtually listening. An added note that I don't often sit and analyze him, I just feel gross from what happened tonight and taking the healthy route of venting to others, not to him. His path is his own.
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Silkspin, sorry, big hugs to you.
A friend of mine and her mom are both raging alcoholics, daughter got sober firts and has done incredibly well with it sober about 15 years now. Mom has fallen into a routine, she falls off the wagon like clockwork every 90 days. Mom says the pressure of staying sober gets to be to much for her, she goes to AA and the more they push the days sober the worse the "itch" gets, she knows she will fall eventually anyway, so she just schedules her fall, kind of weird but it works for her.
Take care, hope the rest of the weekend goes ok for you, need an ear just let me know.
Big hugs,
Bill
A friend of mine and her mom are both raging alcoholics, daughter got sober firts and has done incredibly well with it sober about 15 years now. Mom has fallen into a routine, she falls off the wagon like clockwork every 90 days. Mom says the pressure of staying sober gets to be to much for her, she goes to AA and the more they push the days sober the worse the "itch" gets, she knows she will fall eventually anyway, so she just schedules her fall, kind of weird but it works for her.
Take care, hope the rest of the weekend goes ok for you, need an ear just let me know.
Big hugs,
Bill
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Thanks a lot, it's always good to put something out there and get something helpful in return. Also good to know that everything is non-linear - life in general, even healthy, is uncertain, and A's are no different. Everyone has their own crap and idiosyncrasies, like the mom and daughter you describe.
It's like that for him - most of the time he 'theoretically' gets it, even more so when he falls down and it doesn't work out well (i.e rough and hungover). And yet, when the itch comes, it's incessant until he does something about it, regardless of how logically he can think about it. It builds and then an opportunity presents and he willfully throws everything out the window because it's that overpowering. He's a supersmart computer programmer with lots of education to back that up, and yet he can't apply his vast problem-solving capabilities in the realm of his own personal and emotional life.
Over the years my compassion has grown - he is an atypical A, really opposite of most I hear about. Always supportive of me doing my own thing, easygoing (to a fault). He is the type where he allows himself to be compromised for the sake of others, and then internal resentment may build because he feels like he's never his own priority - and even worse because he understands he's done it to himself!!! It's likely the horrible cycle that led him to drink in the first place; always feeling like his life is under control of others, only because he hadn't taken control of it himself.
Before I realized his drinking was a real issue, he and I had an active social life, lots of friends, lots of things to do and always having fun together. Upon realizing the issue, I understood that the alcohol was a social lubricant for him and not me. And his social sense relies on and is heavily tied to drinking. Who can go out and have fun without it? And of course for those who don't have an issue, that can be true. I very much enjoy a wonderful dinner out with friends, a terrific meal paired with a glass of wine. Trouble is, I can stop there, it doesn't mean more than that for me. The friends, the meal is the real substance, the drink is simply a fun bonus. And for him, that experience is totally distorted. It's all about the drink; it makes everything else seem better, amplified. The other stuff is secondary, you could be anyone. It was demonstrated time and again through his going to bars alone or even being at a bar with me and a bunch of friends, and yet sitting at the bar or outside smoking with a bunch of strangers.
He got a lift home tonight; my brother and sil were over and he socialized for a bit, but he also smoked some pot and it put him over the edge and he said goodnight. I just detached and was courteous, so were they as they know the situation. But it doesn't make it any easier. I know expectations are a bitch but hey, we're human. I long for a time where drinking would not be an elephant in the room in my night out - we could go out as a couple, have some laughs and a few drinks with friends, call it a night. I realize this is not my reality, but what person doesn't want a normal, fun evening with a spouse and friends? I hate that this is our reality; even a backyard bbq is horrible because it's all about the steak and a few cold ones with the boys. What young guy wants to be the one to shake his head no when the buddies congregate to watch an intense hockey match? Not mine; it's tied so strongly to his sense of social self and fitting in. It taints every invitation to go somewhere. We're still young, I don't want to be housebound or only go out with my girls. And since he hasn't fully dealt with his stuff, there is no light here where he is ok with going out and being a fully sober person who can have a good time regardless of what others do.
It's like that for him - most of the time he 'theoretically' gets it, even more so when he falls down and it doesn't work out well (i.e rough and hungover). And yet, when the itch comes, it's incessant until he does something about it, regardless of how logically he can think about it. It builds and then an opportunity presents and he willfully throws everything out the window because it's that overpowering. He's a supersmart computer programmer with lots of education to back that up, and yet he can't apply his vast problem-solving capabilities in the realm of his own personal and emotional life.
Over the years my compassion has grown - he is an atypical A, really opposite of most I hear about. Always supportive of me doing my own thing, easygoing (to a fault). He is the type where he allows himself to be compromised for the sake of others, and then internal resentment may build because he feels like he's never his own priority - and even worse because he understands he's done it to himself!!! It's likely the horrible cycle that led him to drink in the first place; always feeling like his life is under control of others, only because he hadn't taken control of it himself.
Before I realized his drinking was a real issue, he and I had an active social life, lots of friends, lots of things to do and always having fun together. Upon realizing the issue, I understood that the alcohol was a social lubricant for him and not me. And his social sense relies on and is heavily tied to drinking. Who can go out and have fun without it? And of course for those who don't have an issue, that can be true. I very much enjoy a wonderful dinner out with friends, a terrific meal paired with a glass of wine. Trouble is, I can stop there, it doesn't mean more than that for me. The friends, the meal is the real substance, the drink is simply a fun bonus. And for him, that experience is totally distorted. It's all about the drink; it makes everything else seem better, amplified. The other stuff is secondary, you could be anyone. It was demonstrated time and again through his going to bars alone or even being at a bar with me and a bunch of friends, and yet sitting at the bar or outside smoking with a bunch of strangers.
He got a lift home tonight; my brother and sil were over and he socialized for a bit, but he also smoked some pot and it put him over the edge and he said goodnight. I just detached and was courteous, so were they as they know the situation. But it doesn't make it any easier. I know expectations are a bitch but hey, we're human. I long for a time where drinking would not be an elephant in the room in my night out - we could go out as a couple, have some laughs and a few drinks with friends, call it a night. I realize this is not my reality, but what person doesn't want a normal, fun evening with a spouse and friends? I hate that this is our reality; even a backyard bbq is horrible because it's all about the steak and a few cold ones with the boys. What young guy wants to be the one to shake his head no when the buddies congregate to watch an intense hockey match? Not mine; it's tied so strongly to his sense of social self and fitting in. It taints every invitation to go somewhere. We're still young, I don't want to be housebound or only go out with my girls. And since he hasn't fully dealt with his stuff, there is no light here where he is ok with going out and being a fully sober person who can have a good time regardless of what others do.
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Yep! School functions ...always blew me away too!
I was like .."REALLY"!?!!?!? at a school function are you kidding me???
One time I had a gathering, with TV, news reporters and 1/2 of the town
He walked in late. The room got quiet and everyone stared at him.
The smell of whiskey would of knocked ya over. I was so mad, I couldnt
even see straight. But I held onto my composer as hard as I could.
"Baffling" my favorite word!
I was like .."REALLY"!?!!?!? at a school function are you kidding me???
One time I had a gathering, with TV, news reporters and 1/2 of the town
He walked in late. The room got quiet and everyone stared at him.
The smell of whiskey would of knocked ya over. I was so mad, I couldnt
even see straight. But I held onto my composer as hard as I could.
"Baffling" my favorite word!
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Originally Posted by silkspin 
AH has been 'in recovery' for 3 years... Never liked AA though; couldn't really get into it even though he went to meetings and had a sponsor, and eventually dropped it...
Instead of AA he tried a psychiatrist, who suggested he may not really be a true A but has a lack of coping skills that make him turn to the only thing that has worked in the past to help him cope.
Instead of AA he tried a psychiatrist, who suggested he may not really be a true A but has a lack of coping skills that make him turn to the only thing that has worked in the past to help him cope.
Originally Posted by silkspin
It's just baffling to me how this effin disease works and it's saddening to me how little it takes to slip into something he knows logically to be destructive. But when that switch flips, it's all gone... And the really weird thing is that it doesn't always happen, which, as a psychology major myself, really makes me wonder about what goes on in their brains.
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Before I realized his drinking was a real issue, he and I had an active social life, lots of friends, lots of things to do and always having fun together. Upon realizing the issue, I understood that the alcohol was a social lubricant for him and not me. And his social sense relies on and is heavily tied to drinking. Who can go out and have fun without it? And of course for those who don't have an issue, that can be true. I very much enjoy a wonderful dinner out with friends, a terrific meal paired with a glass of wine. Trouble is, I can stop there, it doesn't mean more than that for me. The friends, the meal is the real substance, the drink is simply a fun bonus. And for him, that experience is totally distorted. It's all about the drink; it makes everything else seem better, amplified.
I understand your pain. Me and my AH were the same way, always drinking as a "social lubricant". After realizing it was beyond social, we turned it off. We found most of our "freinds" were just functioning AH's as well. I could turn it off- she needed rehab. Now it is difficult for us to go out anywhere where alchohol is prevelant. I would love to go out someplace for more than one or 2 drinks with freinds, but feel I am trapping her into a place that is uncomfortable and cause a relapse.
I hope at some point we both can find that happy medium.
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My therapist recommend I read Addictive Thinking by Abraham Twerski and The Addictive Personality by Craig Nakken, they came bound together into one volume from Amazon.
I have been to two Psychatrists, all they really did was presribe drugs and monitor side effects and whether I was suicidal, my psychologists and Licensed Clinical Therapists are/were the ones who did the heavy lifting, getting me to really think about my issues and how to get better.
My ex-wife was a computer programmer, they are I have found a fairly quirky bunch, my wife worked at several large companies, the programmers of all ages were hard partiers, they generally only socialized with other programmers and frequently only spoke in geek-speak, now I may be way off base in my generalizations, but it seemed to carry from company to company, she ended up having and affair with and leaving me for another programmer.
Is there an image problem for him if he is not drinking, he cannot drink o'douls or sharps or have a coke when he goes out, will his friends laugh at him, if they do maybe he has the wrong friends.
I have been to two Psychatrists, all they really did was presribe drugs and monitor side effects and whether I was suicidal, my psychologists and Licensed Clinical Therapists are/were the ones who did the heavy lifting, getting me to really think about my issues and how to get better.
My ex-wife was a computer programmer, they are I have found a fairly quirky bunch, my wife worked at several large companies, the programmers of all ages were hard partiers, they generally only socialized with other programmers and frequently only spoke in geek-speak, now I may be way off base in my generalizations, but it seemed to carry from company to company, she ended up having and affair with and leaving me for another programmer.
Is there an image problem for him if he is not drinking, he cannot drink o'douls or sharps or have a coke when he goes out, will his friends laugh at him, if they do maybe he has the wrong friends.
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Originally Posted by Terminally Unique
Your husband might want to consider that this 'thing' he is dealing with is not caused by a lack of coping skills, and that no amount of therapy is going to quell it. Neither is it an irrational belief that can be disputed away, so logic has little to do with it. Something more is required.
Willy, thanks also for the book references. Our story isn't quite the same, although relatable. I've worked with many programmers and he is not quite as you typically describe, which is pretty accurate. He is actually educated as a chemical engineer, which shifted over the years back to his initial love of computers. He's actually quite sociable and charismatic, much as I imagine that IT Managers must be - a good mix of people and computers and not the hardcore head in a screen guy. He used to work as a database manager for a pharma company - and there he worked with teams of scientists - and those guys are definitely cut of a different cloth. He respected their capabilities but found their extreme introversion difficult.
It's absolutely a self-image issue. He has confided his issues with some of his closer friends and they are understanding - all of them. It's all in his head. Despite his successes in life, he's always had feelings of being a failure, and this stems from that. He feels that everyone's eyes are on him when he turns down a drink, and those who he may be around socially and don't know him, may of course be like 'what, you don't want some? Cmon!" (i.e. he joined a baseball team one summer and they all go out for pitchers - maybe playful joshing, if they knew I'm sure they wouldn't do that, but it makes him feel so self-conscious). It's unlikely anyone is judging or even gives a crap if he has a drink or not, it's all him and how he feels left out. I believe his father to be what I term a 'quiet A' - the man has a ton of anxiety and the drinking is so subtle one could hardly notice but it is there as sure as the sunrise. AH has never felt accepted by his dad and those nagging feelings of being a failure I think stems largely from that. The psych did delve into that a bit, but I didn't ask further than that.
Thanks all for all the support.
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Silkspin,
He may get some benefit from the ACOA forum on this site, and the ACOA website which is adultchildren.org different organization but their focus is not only on children of alcoholics but children raised in dysfunctional homes. The ACOA forum may give him some comfort, I know it has helped me tremendously.
Big hugs,
Bill
He may get some benefit from the ACOA forum on this site, and the ACOA website which is adultchildren.org different organization but their focus is not only on children of alcoholics but children raised in dysfunctional homes. The ACOA forum may give him some comfort, I know it has helped me tremendously.
Big hugs,
Bill
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My xAH was similar in some ways to yours... Felt uncomfortable saying no to drinks even when he was in REHAB!... Had an A father who he could never measure up to enough... He played soccer in college on a scholarship, was a bright student, changed from an engineering major to history bc he liked it better and still 20 yrs later hasn't heard the end of what a failure he is... So, the feeling of never being good enough is there...
I hope that your AH continues to be able to "control" his drinking... I thought mine would be able to for a long time and I woke up one day and realized my H was getting increasingly angry, mean etc...
I'm glad you're here...
I hope that your AH continues to be able to "control" his drinking... I thought mine would be able to for a long time and I woke up one day and realized my H was getting increasingly angry, mean etc...
I'm glad you're here...
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Oh you are not going to like me at all.....
3 yrs in recovery is not having a "slip" once a year....it starts all over. He is not working a program therefor he is NOT in recovery. He is an active A who drinks on occasion, binges.
You are making excuses for him and trying to figure out why he drinks and fix it. Guess what...not your problem.
Work your program and stay on your side of the street.
These are his dragons to slay not yours....your only decision is whether you want to be along for the ride.
3 yrs in recovery is not having a "slip" once a year....it starts all over. He is not working a program therefor he is NOT in recovery. He is an active A who drinks on occasion, binges.
You are making excuses for him and trying to figure out why he drinks and fix it. Guess what...not your problem.
Work your program and stay on your side of the street.
These are his dragons to slay not yours....your only decision is whether you want to be along for the ride.
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Originally Posted by blwninthewind
3 yrs in recovery is not having a "slip" once a year....it starts all over. He is not working a program therefore he is NOT in recovery. He is an active A who drinks on occasion, binges.
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Instead of AA he tried a psychiatrist, who suggested he may not really be a true A but has a lack of coping skills that make him turn to the only thing that has worked in the past to help him cope
what a lack of excuses!! see shows you, unless you have been affected by and addict or alcoholic, how they H@LL are they gonna know...
when i was in my "grief" sessions the person there kept saying "let it go, let it go"....now i get why...she could never identify what it was really like to be "effected" by alcoholism in the family.....*shakes head*
what a lack of excuses!! see shows you, unless you have been affected by and addict or alcoholic, how they H@LL are they gonna know...
when i was in my "grief" sessions the person there kept saying "let it go, let it go"....now i get why...she could never identify what it was really like to be "effected" by alcoholism in the family.....*shakes head*
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Originally Posted by blwninthewind
Oh you are not going to like me at all.....
3 yrs in recovery is not having a "slip" once a year....it starts all over. He is not working a program therefor he is NOT in recovery. He is an active A who drinks on occasion, binges.
You are making excuses for him and trying to figure out why he drinks and fix it. Guess what...not your problem.
Work your program and stay on your side of the street.
These are his dragons to slay not yours....your only decision is whether you want to be along for the ride.
3 yrs in recovery is not having a "slip" once a year....it starts all over. He is not working a program therefor he is NOT in recovery. He is an active A who drinks on occasion, binges.
You are making excuses for him and trying to figure out why he drinks and fix it. Guess what...not your problem.
Work your program and stay on your side of the street.
These are his dragons to slay not yours....your only decision is whether you want to be along for the ride.
I know it's not my problem - I stated in my original email that his path is his own. Been there and tried all the typical stuff and I've changed my tune with the help of Al Anon and a sponsor. But that doesn't mean I can't wonder about, be upset, emotional about it, especially given he drank on the weekend. We are not robots, and I can (and did) let him deal with his own crap, whilst venting here. And just because this baffles me doesn't mean I'm making excuses. It is what it is. For me, knowledge has always been power. The more I know about this, the better equipped I am to deal with it. Am I peddling any of it to him? Nope.
I have my boundaries firmly in place and would do what I had to if they are breached.
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Originally Posted by silkspin
For me, knowledge has always been power. The more I know about this, the better equipped I am to deal with it.
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I just want to add that this is a struggle - lines are not always clear and I am learning a new way based on our reality. Trying to understand this thing, in relation to him, to him and me, to our lives, is part of my coping and recovery and is helping me define a new set of behaviours. And, a large part is mourning aspects of my life that didn't turn out as planned, while looking forward to creating something better for myself.
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Originally Posted by Terminally Unique
I have to agree with you there, blwninthewind. I don't know the man, but from silkspin's description, I would say that he is actually 'in addiction'. Regarding the 'working a program' qualifier, which you are technically correct about, I must point out that one can also be fully recovered — neither 'in addiction' nor 'in recovery' — without a formal program.
That isnt' recovery/recovered at all. That is an alcoholic that doesn't drink.
Just my 2cents... take what you want and leave the rest.
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Originally Posted by silkspin
We all have our opinions - I neither like or dislike what I get here. Whatever language is used, AH was a regular binge drinker up until 3 years ago when I decided I didn't want to be along for the ride and he decided to get help. Since then he has done many things, including participating in AA and seeing a psych. He used to drink every weekend like a frat boy, now 3 times in the last 3 years he's done it. For me, that's progress. I call it recovering because that's what his efforts are towards - does it fit cleanly the language that others use? Maybe not. Is he an active A with longer time between binges? Sure, we can call it whatever we want.
I know it's not my problem - I stated in my original email that his path is his own. Been there and tried all the typical stuff and I've changed my tune with the help of Al Anon and a sponsor. But that doesn't mean I can't wonder about, be upset, emotional about it, especially given he drank on the weekend. We are not robots, and I can (and did) let him deal with his own crap, whilst venting here. And just because this baffles me doesn't mean I'm making excuses. It is what it is. For me, knowledge has always been power. The more I know about this, the better equipped I am to deal with it. Am I peddling any of it to him? Nope.
I have my boundaries firmly in place and would do what I had to if they are breached.
I know it's not my problem - I stated in my original email that his path is his own. Been there and tried all the typical stuff and I've changed my tune with the help of Al Anon and a sponsor. But that doesn't mean I can't wonder about, be upset, emotional about it, especially given he drank on the weekend. We are not robots, and I can (and did) let him deal with his own crap, whilst venting here. And just because this baffles me doesn't mean I'm making excuses. It is what it is. For me, knowledge has always been power. The more I know about this, the better equipped I am to deal with it. Am I peddling any of it to him? Nope.
I have my boundaries firmly in place and would do what I had to if they are breached.
He is't ready to quit.
That's just it.
Maybe he will NEVER be ready...is that something you can live with?
If it is...that IS okay...it's YOUR choice. I won't try to make you feel bad for that decision and apologize if I did. However... I live w/ a RAH w/ just shy of 2yrs. sobriety...literally..no slips. 2 full years. AND IT IS HARD!!!!
Our relationship is a mess. Our communication is jsut crazy...and I have come to believe that this isn't what I want...sober or A he makes me nuts.
I am still trying to decide if it's A crazy behavior still in play or he's just an *******...I can't decide. So maybe I'm taking some of my frustration out on you...sorry.
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Location: « USA » Recovered with AVRT (Rational Recovery) ___________
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Originally Posted by blwninthewind
Even those that claim they are 'recovered'...which to me equals "cured"...well unless they can drink like normal people they aren't cured or recovered.
See: Worldwide Lifetime Alcohol Abstention
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