MsGrace

My AH relapsed after a 13 year sobriety...and in one second, the very second I got between him and the addiction, he threw me away, our life away, his home, his beloved pet and everything our life was about. As if I never mattered, nothing we had mattered...it was all meaningless to him.

As I learned about the disease....I came to understand that a spouse frequently is the target, as you are the one that most threatens his ability to use. I get this. I made peace with it as I understood I could not change it. But here is something that is actually much harder for me to comprehend:

We have a very close friend (that I actually met through AH) who also happens to be really, really wealthy. Her brother was AH best friend, they met in rehab in their 20s...and were close for many years. The friend I speak of is the sister of this person. AH and X got sober together, AH relapsed, but X was able to never drink again. He died from esophogeal cancer (due to the early alcholism) two years ago.

My friend is a great philanthropist...and has done very big, very generous things with the wealth she has. She also is unmarried, and chooses to spend a certain amount entertaining and blessing her friends with things that most of us could never experience. Lavish trips, parties, sport events and the like, this band of friends who have been so blessed by her, are all just average people: teachers, workers of all kinds that she has known over many many years. I was introduced to her through the AH and we became good friends, as well. He was able to travel the world, and do amazing things with her prior to our marriage.

As he relapsed and became someone I had never met and did not understand, she also struggled with understanding this. Every year for the last 5 years we spend the Christmas holiday with her in a beautiful resort town where she keeps a gorgeous condo, really for the use of her friends. Every year we so enjoyed this trip. I always looked for ways to contribute...I cook for them (as she doesn't cook) and we always take a day on that trip to fix everything in the condo and clean it meticulously. AH wanted to come this last year again, (and without me...we were separated) so she agreed.

So two days after he returned from the trip....I got a call from her. The trip had been a disaster. He trashed her place, was still in bed when she came to take him to the airport (and he yelled at her) broke several things, let another friend of theirs transport him to the grocery store...then proceeded to let this person he barely knew...buy all his groceries!! They were absolutely shocked, and like me, had never seen him or known him drinking.

It didn't surprise me...and I always felt like if there was any one person who could perhaps intervene with him, that mattered to him, that could impact him, it would be this friend of many years. She's never done anything but be kind to all of us and lavish us with her generosity. They called him, told him that he would not be welcome again to visit them, unless he was not only sober, but actively working recovery. It didn't seem to register..he continued to call them as if nothing was wrong.

So she wrote him a letter...telling him the friendship was over. That she had felt so disrespected by how he treated her and left her place. A few days later, he called her...and said he "hadn't gotten" the letter. She then verbally told him the same thing. I thought this would shock him into some reality..but no. He was cold, unapologetic, and just blew her off saying "fine, I'll take you out of my address book". End of story.

I find this harder to comprehend than that same treatment of me....this was the one person I thought actually mattered to him, and that he would make SOME effort to please. Nope. Cold, cruel.

If I live to be a hundred....I'll never understand what clicks off for these people that they can lose absolutely everything of value, and pretend (I guess) like it's nothing at all to them. Does anyone have a perspective on this that could deepen my comprehension??? I'm as baffled as I've ever been...

MsGrace

thanks Anvil...you are always such a wise voice. One other question: is this actively addicted person and the traits they exhibit the real person? Or is the addiction just making them crazy (or someone they wouldn't be or are not) while sober? Does the addiction actually change the character of the person...or just reveal it as it is??

Cyranoak

Hi Ms. Grace,

I'm trying to be nice here when I say that while I don't understand why it happens, it doesn't surprise me or baffle me at all because it's so incredibly normal for an alcoholic. I don't find it any different than when a dog barks at me as I walk by their house. I guess I'm just way past any kind of need to understand addiction and alcoholism. I just accept it like I accept rain-- I don't prefer it but there it is.

It's like the parable of the Swan and the Snake. A snake gets to a river and asks the swan to carry him across. The swan says, "no, you'll bite me and I'll die." The snake swears that it won't because if it did it will drown and die also. Understanding that logic the Swan agrees and begins to carry the snake across the river. Part way across the snake bites the swan and, before it dies, the swan asks the snake, "now we will both die and you promised you wouldn't bite me-- why did you do that?"

The snake responded, "I'm a snake."

Cyranoak

MsGrace

Thank you Cyranoak...that sure is a demonstrative parable. This is my very first experience with alcoholism in my personal life...so while I feel I have done a lot of my own work around it, I find I am still continually shocked at what actually happens...

Perhaps I should look forward to a time when I'll be "old hat" with understanding it...and I'll cease even being curious about it. But I'm not quite there yet...still find it incomprehensible, and I seek to understand it better.

thank you again

theuncertainty

Hugs, MsGrace.

I still wonder about your question: does the addiction change or just just reveal them. I *want* to say it changes them, because I don't want to believe I fell for someone so nasty and deceptive as XAH became. However... I don't think I really believe that.

Here's my I-Spent-Way-Too-Much-Time-Thinking-About-This theory: Throughout the course of their lives, people change, they grow: they pursue knowledge, skills, artistic endeavors, careers...; their every day experiences 'change' them; they learn (or don't) coping mechanisms. It's a basic trait of humanity.

Alcohol doesn't make people do things they don't want to do; it simply removes the inhibitions - or gives them something to use as an excuse.

So, throw alcoholism into the changing/growing trait, an alcoholic changes, just like all other people do; they can still pursue knowledge, skills, artistic endeavors, careers. What they don't really do is learn any (or many) new coping mechanisms; their fall-back coping mechanism is alcohol and all of the... stuff that goes along with that, whatever it may be for them - initially whatever they tell themselves why they drink, then what they tell themselves for why they CAN continue to drink, what they get in exchange for drinking. They continue to grow and learn, but it's through the filter of alcoholism. It doesn't make them people they're not, but it magnifies traits and lets them grow that non-alcoholics/non-addicts/non-impaired people may try to not do. Does that make sense?

When they work towards recovery, they can't just stop drinking/using. They have to work on the traits that their addiction allowed to thrive and learn new coping skills.

For what it's worth, I think the same way about recovering from abuse or co-dependency. We don't just walk away from an abusive relationship and all is fine; we can't just stop enabling and be OK; we have to figure out new ways to cope, to react.

I'm kind of rambling today. Hopefully it coherent enough to makes sense...

MsGrace

It doesn't make them people they're not, but it magnifies traits and lets them grow that non-alcoholics/non-addicts/non-impaired people may try to not do.

When they work towards recovery, they can't just stop drinking/using. They have to work on the traits that their addiction allowed to thrive and learn new coping skills.

Ahhh..this is starting to make more sense...thank you Anvil and Theuncertainty and Cyranoak. I think I get it: the magnification of character flaws. So those flaws were there, run unchecked when un-challenged by being sober. I think this makes perfect sense.

I don't know why understanding a little better these perplexing questions makes this easier for me. Don't know why..it just does and bless all of you who come here to help us all understand the incomprehensible. Thank you!

AlcoholicLove

It has been my experience that to my "recovering" A (no contact for 2 months now) is really the only person that is REALLY important is HIM.

The "caring" for others is just a smoke screen, until he is done using them for whatever reason....
Not saying this is true for everyone-just what I have seen..
He has been sober (I think) for almost 18 months, although he had started to say things like "I parked in front of a booze store and almost went in-it would have been so easy, no one would have known...." or "As I get older, I'm just going to say I gave it good shot-now the hell with it"
I don't know what is going on with him-NC is the only thing that works...

lillamy

Amen to this.

MsGrace

[QUOTE=AlcoholicLove;3281976]It has been my experience that to my "recovering" A (no contact for 2 months now) is really the only person that is REALLY important is HIM.

The "caring" for others is just a smoke screen, until he is done using them for whatever reason....
Not saying this is true for everyone-just what I have seen..

Yes...this trait is familiar. Extreme narcissism. Back to my original question: were they purely narcissistic right from the beginning, but had better ways to hide it while sober? I think what motivates me to probe this is like someone said before: I might be looking for some validation that I didn't completely miss these glaring character flaws or I was under some pink romantic illusion. I flat did not see this person as the person he is now. I think I'm trying to see if I'll ever trust my own instincts about people again...that is probably my real question.

I sure missed it. I sure did....

langkah

If you want to understand it better. Put a name or an emotion, any relationship or a standard of behavior, or a material item, or a character trait (positive or negative) that you believe should rightfully mean something or be of some concern to him in the space before the words '...it doesn't matter'.

Anything you can think of fits in fine before '...it doesn't matter.' That's his current world view.

He's that way now and will stay that way unless he gets sober again, which rarely happens when people blow that kind of time. He'll think he knew things of value instead of ineffective foolishness which will get in the way of his ever getting it right instead of wrong.

I'd guess he'd started chippying a couple of years earlier than you think, as it seems to be the 11th year that cleans out a lot of the deadwood, and he could no longer hide it in his '13th year'.

If you're worried about the possibility you earlier had misread him and that he was the same back then but only hiding it, I'd say you weren't wrong about him then and he wasn't hiding this side. This is just the way a drunk has to be to have another drinkie.

Hope that helps to let yourself off the hook.

AlcoholicLove

I don't think you missed it-I just know that they are masters at hiding their true self.

I think of him/they as a chameleon-able to change into whatever I/they want them to be at such and such time.
They are true MASTERS OF ILLUSION.....
I don't think anyone really knows an alcoholic, even a "recovering" one.
If you haven't read "Co-Dependent No More" I highly recommend it..

Terminally Unique

If you are suggesting that, like a snake, an 'alcoholic' is a biological robot, incapable of altering or refraining from instinct, you are deeply mistaken.

Terminally Unique

Ms. Grace,

Firstly, my understanding of 'alcoholism' has nothing to do with 'coping' or 'underlying issues' or any of the usual explanations you'll read about. That said, Langkah has some good points, notably with the 'it doesn't matter' analogy. Right now, your ex husband views alcohol as necessary for life itself, as more important than oxygen. If you are shocked that he would respond in the way he did towards anyone who got in the way of his alcohol, don't be. Ask yourself how you would react if someone tried to cut off your oxygen supply, and you'll get the idea. Would you be willing to hurt someone who was cutting off your oxygen supply? I'm willing to bet that you would. Of course, it also doesn't help that alcohol is also literally obliterating your ex-husband's moral conscience — his sense of right and wrong — so that he is, to some extent, a sociopath while under the influence. Langkah may also be dead on the money regarding earlier imbibing.

kieren

See this is my thing...is my Husband a selfish self centred complete Hole or is it the alcohol that makes him like that. I think it is probably the chicken or the egg question isnt it?

mattmathews

I'd like to thank Terminally Unique for her comment and add my own:
As my wife's disease progressed and especially as she neared her bottom I truly believe that she was literally not the same person that she was when she wasn't wrapped up in her addiction. I saw the addiction.
When she stopped drinking, well, that's when the work began. Defects of character...without a doubt. But I've seen her grow and change over the past two years. I've seen myself grow and change over the past two years. I've seen people in my Al-anon program grow and change over the past two years. Growth, change, improvement...it is possible. It's not inevitable, but it is possible.
We all have defects of character, but, by grace, we all have the opportunity to remove those defects. They don't define us. We can be the people we would like to be. Even better, I believe that we can become people we didn't even think it was possible to become.

FindingJoy

Bottom line change has to come from within and you have to want it more than anything. It's uncomfortable and scary but I trust that it is worth it.

MsGrace

Boy....this is incredibly helpful. And you are right, I now believe the relapse started two years ago...after a total hip replacement and 6 weeks of vicodin. I spoke to the surgeon at length prior to the surgery about pain management and his alcoholism, but that's what he prescribed. Our lives never returned to "normal" after that.

Thank you Terminal....your description of that drive like oxygen is also incredibly helpful...it helps me both understand better and regain some compassion.

I don't know how to thank (adequately) all of you who share your wisdom here. You have contributed to my recovery in a million ways and I'm so grateful to you.

NYCDoglvr

To an active alcoholic booze is the most important thing in life, their higher power, lover, best friend, boss, father, mother. Nothing is more important than alcohol to an active alcoholic.

This is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is what YOU do, the steps you take to keep from going into a sink hole with him.

theuncertainty

I wasn't saying anything about what I think addiction is. This is the question I was responding to:

They're related, but not the same question. Just.... I don't know. *shrug*

Terminally Unique

If that were the case, then they would never be able to quit. It does certainly beg the question as to why anyone who believes this would advocate "tough love" so that they (presumably) eventually "hit bottom" and get the motivation to quit, however. If it were true that they couldn't alter course, then they would be incapable of quitting, even if they did hit that proverbial 'bottom'.

Since they are indeed able to alter course, else they wouldn't be able to stop in the first place, it follows that they certainly have this capacity once the intake of the substance stops.

They certainly don't help, since they obliterate the capacity to reason properly.

So what? There are also a lot of jerks who are not.

It certainly fixes the things that were caused by the alcohol or drugs.

Addicted people love telling never-addicted people that they were 'coping' or 'dealing' with life by getting drunk or high, because never-addicted people have a tendency to believe this stuff. In actual fact, however, they were just getting drunk or high, and the only thing that they were 'coping' and 'dealing' with was withdrawal.

Once they quit getting high, they will have problems, just like anyone else does, except that since they won't be high as a kite, they will actually have to cope and deal for a change. Besides, what does being miserable or not have to do with it? There are plenty of miserable people who have never taken a single drop of alcohol, or a hit of any other hedonic drug in their lives, after all.