Gone one week, had first talk this last Sat.
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Gone one week, had first talk this last Sat.
He came into my parents house and hugged me right away and he was shaking. We both sat down on the couch and before I could even say anything he said “I want you to know I’m not mad and I don’t blame you for leaving. I was mean to you and mean to 9yo son”. It went on from there that he hasn’t had a drop to drink since he got home (the 27th) – wow, one week and said he was completely done with Whiskey of any kind. He’s going to do whatever it takes to get his family back. He understands the separation and why I am not coming home right now and also understands filing papers and divorce so I can get the child support. He’s hoping to reconcile before the divorce is final or we might want to delay it. He says he’s going to get counseling and such. He called and said he’d pick up the divorce papers so I didn’t have to have him served so we’d save the money that way. He’s being VERY good about all of it, all of it including sharing our son back and forth. He’s completely devastated, completely (well, of course he is!).
So my question is…..what are the Red Flags here? IS ALL OF THIS BEHAVIOR NORMAL FOR AN ABUSER? What am I to expect in the near future? Is this for real? How long I wonder can he hold out not drinking?
I don’t want to give him any shred of hope there’s any chance but it’s EXTREMELY hard to tell him that when he’s looking directly at you – it’s actually scary to me. When I left, I left with the FULL intention of a divorce. I think I'm going to have to go back and listen to the recordings from when we had our big fight back in October so I can have it fresh in my mind how he talks and treats to me and play it over and over whenever I begin to feel weak.
On a lighter note, my son is doing GREAT in therapy, he said he really likes talking to the Dr. so I think I made the right call in doing that. Thanks everyone.
So my question is…..what are the Red Flags here? IS ALL OF THIS BEHAVIOR NORMAL FOR AN ABUSER? What am I to expect in the near future? Is this for real? How long I wonder can he hold out not drinking?
I don’t want to give him any shred of hope there’s any chance but it’s EXTREMELY hard to tell him that when he’s looking directly at you – it’s actually scary to me. When I left, I left with the FULL intention of a divorce. I think I'm going to have to go back and listen to the recordings from when we had our big fight back in October so I can have it fresh in my mind how he talks and treats to me and play it over and over whenever I begin to feel weak.
On a lighter note, my son is doing GREAT in therapy, he said he really likes talking to the Dr. so I think I made the right call in doing that. Thanks everyone.
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I did the same thing last year. We tried, I filed an extension for the divorce, and now have had to file again. He would not resign the papers. It is all common. You will go up and down in whether or not you want to give him a chance. It took some time and him doing some pretty stupid things for me to be done, but it will come. Give yourself a break. No decisions need to be made right now!!! Good luck
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Thanks you. anvilhead...I know this is a beginning in the process. I guess my question was more related to are there others who had these promises made to them and they followed through? I just don't see it happening here. I certainly after all these years of him drinking and verbally and emotionally abusing me and our son have no hope for a complete and total recovery. It's near impossible at this point as I'm told these "kind" don't ever change - ever. Yes and only ten whole days..I realize that it's a very, very short time and the process hasn't even begun yet. As I said, I was just wondering if there were others out there who had the same promises made to them and how did those situations turn out? Thanks.
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Thank you.
Thanks you. anvilhead...I know this is a beginning in the process. I guess my question was more related to are there others who had these promises made to them and they followed through? I just don't see it happening here. I certainly after all these years of him drinking and verbally and emotionally abusing me and our son have no hope for a complete and total recovery. It's near impossible at this point as I'm told these "kind" don't ever change - ever. Yes and only ten whole days..I realize that it's a very, very short time and the process hasn't even begun yet. As I said, I was just wondering if there were others out there who had the same promises made to them and how did those situations turn out? Thanks.
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I would venture to say that most all of us heard those same promises. It's like they all read the same book. He might even actually believe what he's saying, but, a leopard does not change his spots. If he wants recovery, he'll do it whether you are in the picture or not. He won't do it for a few days or a few weeks or even a few months. He'll do it for the rest of his life.
None of us can tell you what to do, but you made the big and hardest decision, and that was to get out. If he's serious about recovery, make him prove it long term. If he can do that for a year minimum, then, MAYBE, you can START thinking about giving it another shot. There is no hurry. The last thing you or that sweet little boy needs is to go back to the hell you just got out of.
None of us can tell you what to do, but you made the big and hardest decision, and that was to get out. If he's serious about recovery, make him prove it long term. If he can do that for a year minimum, then, MAYBE, you can START thinking about giving it another shot. There is no hurry. The last thing you or that sweet little boy needs is to go back to the hell you just got out of.
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XABF made many promises and he never kept any.
I heard often, with tears in his eyes, "I promise, I will never, ever hurt you again" then again he goes, and again and again and again. Just like it says in this article:
Addiction, Lies and Relationships
One of the most damaging interpersonal scenarios occurs when the addict, usually as the consequence of some unforeseen crisis directly stemming from his addiction, promises with all of the sincerity at his command to stop his addictive behavior and never under any circumstances to resume it again.
"I promise," the addict pleads, sometimes with tears in his eyes. "I know I have been wrong, and this time I have learned my lesson. You'll never have to worry about me again. It will never happen again!"
But it does happen again à and again, and again, and again. Each time the promises, each time their breaking. Those who first responded to his sincere sounding promises of reform with relief, hope and at times even joy soon become disillusioned and bitter.
Spouses and other family members begin to ask a perfectly logical question: "If you really love and care about me, why do you keep doing what you know hurts me so badly?" To this the addict has no answer except to promise once again to do better, "this time for real, you'll see!" or to respond with grievances and complaints of his own. The question of fairness arises as the addict attempts to extenuate his own admitted transgressions by repeated references to what he considers the equal or greater faults of those who complain of his addictive behavior. This natural defensive maneuver of "the best defense is a good offense" variety can be the first step on a slippery slope that leads to the paranoid demonization of the very people the addict cares about the most. Unable any longer to carry the burden of his own transgressions he begins to think of himself as the victim of the unfairness and unreasonableness of others who are forever harping on his addiction and the consequences that flow from it. "Leave me alone," he may snap. "I'm not hurting anybody but myself!" He has become almost totally blind to how his addictive behavior does in fact harm those around him who care about him; and he has grown so confused that hurting only himself has begun to sound like a rational, even a virtuous thing to do!
Corresponding in a mirror image fashion to the addicts sense of unfair victimization by his significant others may be the rising self-pity, resentment and outrage of those whose lives are repeatedly disturbed or disrupted by the addicts behavior. A downward spiral commences of reciprocally reinforcing mistrust and resentment as once healthy and mutually supportive relationships begin to corrode under the toxic effects of the relentless addictive process.
I heard often, with tears in his eyes, "I promise, I will never, ever hurt you again" then again he goes, and again and again and again. Just like it says in this article:
Addiction, Lies and Relationships
One of the most damaging interpersonal scenarios occurs when the addict, usually as the consequence of some unforeseen crisis directly stemming from his addiction, promises with all of the sincerity at his command to stop his addictive behavior and never under any circumstances to resume it again.
"I promise," the addict pleads, sometimes with tears in his eyes. "I know I have been wrong, and this time I have learned my lesson. You'll never have to worry about me again. It will never happen again!"
But it does happen again à and again, and again, and again. Each time the promises, each time their breaking. Those who first responded to his sincere sounding promises of reform with relief, hope and at times even joy soon become disillusioned and bitter.
Spouses and other family members begin to ask a perfectly logical question: "If you really love and care about me, why do you keep doing what you know hurts me so badly?" To this the addict has no answer except to promise once again to do better, "this time for real, you'll see!" or to respond with grievances and complaints of his own. The question of fairness arises as the addict attempts to extenuate his own admitted transgressions by repeated references to what he considers the equal or greater faults of those who complain of his addictive behavior. This natural defensive maneuver of "the best defense is a good offense" variety can be the first step on a slippery slope that leads to the paranoid demonization of the very people the addict cares about the most. Unable any longer to carry the burden of his own transgressions he begins to think of himself as the victim of the unfairness and unreasonableness of others who are forever harping on his addiction and the consequences that flow from it. "Leave me alone," he may snap. "I'm not hurting anybody but myself!" He has become almost totally blind to how his addictive behavior does in fact harm those around him who care about him; and he has grown so confused that hurting only himself has begun to sound like a rational, even a virtuous thing to do!
Corresponding in a mirror image fashion to the addicts sense of unfair victimization by his significant others may be the rising self-pity, resentment and outrage of those whose lives are repeatedly disturbed or disrupted by the addicts behavior. A downward spiral commences of reciprocally reinforcing mistrust and resentment as once healthy and mutually supportive relationships begin to corrode under the toxic effects of the relentless addictive process.
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Originally Posted by qbert 
Thanks you. anvilhead...I know this is a beginning in the process. I guess my question was more related to are there others who had these promises made to them and they followed through? I just don't see it happening here. I certainly after all these years of him drinking and verbally and emotionally abusing me and our son have no hope for a complete and total recovery. It's near impossible at this point as I'm told these "kind" don't ever change - ever. Yes and only ten whole days..I realize that it's a very, very short time and the process hasn't even begun yet. As I said, I was just wondering if there were others out there who had the same promises made to them and how did those situations turn out? Thanks.
Let's be clear here, alcoholism and abusive tendencies are two different things. Many alcoholics indulge in booze without taking it out on others. IMHO (and I'm speaking from the point of view of someone who was married to a verbally and emotionally abusive alcoholic for a few years), abusive tendencies are a LOT harder to treat than alcoholism. Yes, I heard the promises my XAH made, and I too had a lot of difficulty not melting at his words, because they filled me with hope that maybe, just maybe, things would be better. So I did nothing and watched his actions, and it soon became clear that he hadn't changed.
In the end, I squeaked out a "I'm done" over the phone and hung up. Real brave but...it's what I could muster at the time.
As for abusers ACTUALLY changing...the only person I know who's done it is my aunt's husband, but only after 15 solid years of therapy, a second divorce and several years in AA. Mind you, in the interim, he tried to have my aunty committed for trying to leave him. A real gem. Now in his sixties, he's sober, tobacco-free and facing two cancers...I don't know exactly how he changed, but I do know that he worked HARD to change it. And yet, now and again, I still see him slip into that mean man he was.
qbert, I would strongly advise not doing anything at the moment except look at your partner's ACTIONS, and this, on a long-term basis.
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Thank you notaday! I really appreciate that! I don't plan on going back, that is not my intention. You are so right, their words are what they use against us and that is something I didn't think of on the other side as in using them to get what they want, being nice and using those nice words to manipulate us into thinking they are actually changing. Thank you for that!
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There's nothing wrong with not believing him. He has to earn your trust back, and after my experience with an abusive alcoholic, I will say that in my mind it would be impossible for an abuser to earn my trust back.
That said, there's also nothing wrong with letting him think you believe him, if it makes your life easier. If pretending you believe him will help move this divorce along further before he slips back into his old antics, by all means let him think you believe him. When dealing with abusers nothing comes before safety and sanity.
That said, there's also nothing wrong with letting him think you believe him, if it makes your life easier. If pretending you believe him will help move this divorce along further before he slips back into his old antics, by all means let him think you believe him. When dealing with abusers nothing comes before safety and sanity.
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Hugs, Qbert. (If I could I'd be clicking the Thanks button for Noday's post more than once.)
XAH was verbally, emotionally and sexually abusive. His focus each time I left (yes, it was more than once) was on his drinking; my focus was there, too. I didn't realize that, like Noday points out, alcoholism and abuse are two completely separate issues.
One way I've seen it put is alcohol doesn't turn people into something they're not, it just makes them forget to hide it.
Each time I left, XAH would promise to stop drinking, would promise that he HAD stopped drinking, that he was going to AA and had "so many amends to make to [me]". I went back a couple times, because I thought that if he stopped drinking, it'd ALL get better. In my particular case, everything he told me was always a lie: he never stopped drinking (or at least for more than a VERY short while; he most certainly never went to AA.
And each time I did go back, after the little honeymoon period of him trying to be oh-so-sweet, his abusive behavior got progressively worse. Kind of ratcheted up a notch, so to speak.
A really helpful book is Why Does He Do That by Lundy Bancroft.
XAH was verbally, emotionally and sexually abusive. His focus each time I left (yes, it was more than once) was on his drinking; my focus was there, too. I didn't realize that, like Noday points out, alcoholism and abuse are two completely separate issues.
One way I've seen it put is alcohol doesn't turn people into something they're not, it just makes them forget to hide it.
Each time I left, XAH would promise to stop drinking, would promise that he HAD stopped drinking, that he was going to AA and had "so many amends to make to [me]". I went back a couple times, because I thought that if he stopped drinking, it'd ALL get better. In my particular case, everything he told me was always a lie: he never stopped drinking (or at least for more than a VERY short while; he most certainly never went to AA.
And each time I did go back, after the little honeymoon period of him trying to be oh-so-sweet, his abusive behavior got progressively worse. Kind of ratcheted up a notch, so to speak.
A really helpful book is Why Does He Do That by Lundy Bancroft.
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Qbert... after reading your post, the one red flag that came to MY mind was the lack of your husband stating that he WANTS to quit drinking and recover for himself... that he has realized that his drinking and abusive behavior has damaged him as well as you and your son. Also, there is no reason that a divorce should stop him from pursuing his own recovery if he is committed to that path. I agree with everyone's advice that decisions should be made in your own time frame and should only be based on his longterm actions and NOT his words. I am sending strength and hope to you that your recovery is a priority and a reality... :o)
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hi qbert-
other than the ESH from the others, i see additional two red flags:
1. "he said he was done with whiskey of any kind"...
2. "...he was shaking...."
i've heard the "done with whiskey" many times. what it meant was that my alcoholic thought the problem was whiskey. in his head, this meant he could drink wine and beer, as they are not as stong in alcohol and he could handle them. what ended up happening is he would switch to beer for awhile, behave a bit better, and then slip back into drinking whiskey and then full out benders.
the shaking thing is a red flag to me because that's what mine did when he had had a very heavy night of drinking and did not have a drink first thing in the morning. he would start shaking. once he had a few drinks, the shaking would stop.
other than the ESH from the others, i see additional two red flags:
1. "he said he was done with whiskey of any kind"...
2. "...he was shaking...."
i've heard the "done with whiskey" many times. what it meant was that my alcoholic thought the problem was whiskey. in his head, this meant he could drink wine and beer, as they are not as stong in alcohol and he could handle them. what ended up happening is he would switch to beer for awhile, behave a bit better, and then slip back into drinking whiskey and then full out benders.
the shaking thing is a red flag to me because that's what mine did when he had had a very heavy night of drinking and did not have a drink first thing in the morning. he would start shaking. once he had a few drinks, the shaking would stop.
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While you are contemplating all this, I would really encourage you to look into the cycle of abuse:
Cycle of abuse
Cycle of violence
Right now, your partner seems to be attempting to initiate the "make-up" or "honeymoon" phase, which will eventually lead to more abuse.
Also, please remember that the term "abuse" includes all forms: physical, sexual, verbal, emotional/psychological. Whether he's hit you or not, he's still and will continue to be an abuser, until he decides to change, and even then, it's a long hard road to changing such tendencies.
Right now, from reading your post, I see a desperate man pulling out all the stops to try to keep his partner (read: enabler/victim) at his side. Seeing as you've already begun divorce proceedings, I'm going to assume that you alread know that the relationship isn't working.
So let's play the tape all the way through and diffuse the situation:
Say you go ahead with the divorce...then what? Will being divorced mean that he won't be able to see his son? Nope. I assume he'll have visitation and that you'll coparent. Would the divorce somehow stop your AH from recovering?... If he is *committed* to his recovery, then whether you two are divorced or not will not stop him. He can still go to counselling, go to AA, work the steps and work on HIMSELF. Then, MAYBE, when he's got a year of recovery under his belt, (and, I might add, when he's completed a batterer's program, because AA isn't going to address his abusive tendencies), *then* you can assess whether or not you want to get back together. And just because you're divorced doesn't mean that in the future you can't get married again. That's what my aunty (whom I mentioned in my initial post) did; she remarried her first husband when they were in the late 50s, after they both had been through years of therapy.
Right now, in your situation, the wheels are already in motion. He's been served and eventually, you'll have a court date to finalize the proceedings. IMO, it's time to trust HP and let him/her drive for a while. Eventually, your AH's true colours will show.
In the meantime, please take care of yourself and your little boy. Remember HALT (Hungry, Angry, Lonely, Tired)...spend some time healing, whether in counselling, in Al-Anon, in meditation, or in writing. Now is the time to focus on the most important in your life: YOU!
Cycle of abuse
Cycle of violence
Right now, your partner seems to be attempting to initiate the "make-up" or "honeymoon" phase, which will eventually lead to more abuse.
Also, please remember that the term "abuse" includes all forms: physical, sexual, verbal, emotional/psychological. Whether he's hit you or not, he's still and will continue to be an abuser, until he decides to change, and even then, it's a long hard road to changing such tendencies.
Right now, from reading your post, I see a desperate man pulling out all the stops to try to keep his partner (read: enabler/victim) at his side. Seeing as you've already begun divorce proceedings, I'm going to assume that you alread know that the relationship isn't working.
So let's play the tape all the way through and diffuse the situation:
Say you go ahead with the divorce...then what? Will being divorced mean that he won't be able to see his son? Nope. I assume he'll have visitation and that you'll coparent. Would the divorce somehow stop your AH from recovering?... If he is *committed* to his recovery, then whether you two are divorced or not will not stop him. He can still go to counselling, go to AA, work the steps and work on HIMSELF. Then, MAYBE, when he's got a year of recovery under his belt, (and, I might add, when he's completed a batterer's program, because AA isn't going to address his abusive tendencies), *then* you can assess whether or not you want to get back together. And just because you're divorced doesn't mean that in the future you can't get married again. That's what my aunty (whom I mentioned in my initial post) did; she remarried her first husband when they were in the late 50s, after they both had been through years of therapy.
Right now, in your situation, the wheels are already in motion. He's been served and eventually, you'll have a court date to finalize the proceedings. IMO, it's time to trust HP and let him/her drive for a while. Eventually, your AH's true colours will show.
In the meantime, please take care of yourself and your little boy. Remember HALT (Hungry, Angry, Lonely, Tired)...spend some time healing, whether in counselling, in Al-Anon, in meditation, or in writing. Now is the time to focus on the most important in your life: YOU!
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My AH gave up Vodka over a year ago, or so he says..because who can really believe an addict. He was terrible, abusive, embarrassing in public. Once he gave it up and switched to only beer or wine, which I thought was fine as long as the Vodka was gone, he would drink a 30 pack of beer or 4 or 5 bottles of wine. He may have changed the venue but the underlying problem was still there.
I've heard the promises, seen the shaking, watched the crying. They mean nothing until they get the hepl they need. And yes, I'm still with my AH, finances and other factors make it impossible to leave right now, but believe me I think about it every day. Take the time you need to heal and heal your son. You're doing the right thing for both of you. And you cant control if your AH does the right thing for himself, you just have to wait and see.
I've heard the promises, seen the shaking, watched the crying. They mean nothing until they get the hepl they need. And yes, I'm still with my AH, finances and other factors make it impossible to leave right now, but believe me I think about it every day. Take the time you need to heal and heal your son. You're doing the right thing for both of you. And you cant control if your AH does the right thing for himself, you just have to wait and see.
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Alcoholics lie and manipulate and do anything it takes to maintain the status quo. ACTIONS speak louder than words. If your AH is truly motivated to change, he will take action and work harder than he's ever worked in his life.
Meantime, don't hold your breath. Take care of yourself, focus on using the tools available to understand alcoholism and its effect on you and your son (Al Anon, SR, reading) move on with your life, and make a good home for your little boy. Have clear boundaries about what you will and will not accept in your life. Use this time to work on YOU. Give your AH the space to do whatever he intends to do. It's totally out of your control.
My own AH cried and said he'd do anything to save our family when I booted him out 9 months ago. I was so moved! I had gotten his attention! He really did love me! He was going to get help! Then he did....nothing. One AA meeting, which he pronounced "full of losers," and that was it. Lots of words, no action. Oh, well he did switch from mostly beer and wine to vodka, in an effort to "keep the weight off and look better."
When I have moments of doubt, I go back and read my journal entries from when we lived together. I was so miserable. I forget how almost unbearable life was. This helps me to stay strong in my resolve to forge ahead with my own life, and making a better life for our children. Reading the journal entries reminds me how incredibly intolerable my situation was and how emotionally abusive my AH could be. How empty life had become.
Stay strong. Stick to your plan. Sit quietly and watch his actions.
Meantime, don't hold your breath. Take care of yourself, focus on using the tools available to understand alcoholism and its effect on you and your son (Al Anon, SR, reading) move on with your life, and make a good home for your little boy. Have clear boundaries about what you will and will not accept in your life. Use this time to work on YOU. Give your AH the space to do whatever he intends to do. It's totally out of your control.
My own AH cried and said he'd do anything to save our family when I booted him out 9 months ago. I was so moved! I had gotten his attention! He really did love me! He was going to get help! Then he did....nothing. One AA meeting, which he pronounced "full of losers," and that was it. Lots of words, no action. Oh, well he did switch from mostly beer and wine to vodka, in an effort to "keep the weight off and look better."
When I have moments of doubt, I go back and read my journal entries from when we lived together. I was so miserable. I forget how almost unbearable life was. This helps me to stay strong in my resolve to forge ahead with my own life, and making a better life for our children. Reading the journal entries reminds me how incredibly intolerable my situation was and how emotionally abusive my AH could be. How empty life had become.
Stay strong. Stick to your plan. Sit quietly and watch his actions.
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IS ALL OF THIS BEHAVIOR NORMAL FOR AN ABUSER?
I wouldn't bother with books about "Why does he do..." The answer is because he's an alcoholic. Booze is more important than anything in life, it is a higher power, God, the answer to all problems, mother, father, whatever. He sounds like a typical alcoholic to me...
It's a very, very bad idea to put your happiness, life and health in the hands of an active alcoholic.
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I don't want to give you false hope but.... I am an alcoholic and my SO left me last August and she was done! I found words were meaningless even though I meant them all. I had to come to terms with it was over and choose not to drink/use over it for ME. Was very hard to do alone but my actions spoke way louder than words.
For her part she had to truly forgive me before we could start working it out....
I don't believe in the 1 year rule, I think we know in our hearts when we are ready and there is no simple time limit for it. Maybe it takes that long for some. I say focus on yourself and child and don't give in to words. The addict has to want to be done because you just can't quit for someone else.
I wish you the best no matter what you choose but sometimes there are happy endings.
For her part she had to truly forgive me before we could start working it out....
I don't believe in the 1 year rule, I think we know in our hearts when we are ready and there is no simple time limit for it. Maybe it takes that long for some. I say focus on yourself and child and don't give in to words. The addict has to want to be done because you just can't quit for someone else.
I wish you the best no matter what you choose but sometimes there are happy endings.
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Join Date: Dec 2010
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Originally Posted by NYCDoglvr
I wouldn't bother with books about "Why does he do..." The answer is because he's an alcoholic.
Why Does He Do That? is a book to help someone who is suffering abuse to recognize the signs of that abuse and the steps to remove themselves from the situation.
It's one of those books with a title to get its audience to pick it up and read it, where the book doesn't really give the answer to the question on the title. Sort of like Getting Them Sober, which is actually about recovery for those with alcoholic family members, and doesn't even attempt to pretend to have an answer to how to cure alcoholism.
Why Does He Do That? literally saved my life.
There's a book study here in the forum:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...-chapters.html
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