seek

I was at a meeting a few weeks ago and heard a guy say that even if "his" alcoholic stopped drinking, he would still have the same issues.

I could not relate at all.

I recently found out my 18 year old grandson is alcoholic and since the family has been dealing with this, our lives have become living hells a lot of the time. Thinking about him being sober gives peace - drinking, turmoil and worry.

"They say" if you work a program of recovery, you can be happy whether or not the alcoholic still drinks.

My grandson went to rehab. The program, like most, expects the family to participate. You can't really detach when you are "participating."

Then after rehab, a sober living facility. Who pays for that? The family. Hard to detach when you are paying and are vested in the recovery in that way.

My grandson had a slip - ooops! Here is the rant: Do ANY active alcoholics have any IDEA how their decisions affect others? Obviously not. They say in AA, "Just don't pick up a drink." In rehab there was tons and tons of info on relapse prevention and in meetings they talk about how it's "always worse" after relapse ...

I am not an alcoholic so it is impossible for me to understand how it is justified to continue to hurt other people by your actions.

I remember as a teen considering doing some stupid stuff and deciding not to because I wouldn't want to disappoint my parents. I guess that concern for others is missing in some people.

And just the sheer illogical thinking that drinking is somehow going to fix things ...what about the karma of hurting other people who have loved you and have been there for you, over and over again.

My family paid for the rehab and none of us could really afford it. We are paying for the sober living because we love this kid and want to see him get well.

All he has to do is go to meetings, get sober, and grow up.

I was thinking today that this could go on for years and I can't even handle what I have been through so far.

I look at least 20 year's older and a whole lot sadder than I did last year at this time.

I am going to a meeting tonight and hopefully it will help but this post is a rant against the hurt that is caused by one person to a group of associated others. We all impact each other with our actions, for good or bad.

It's interesting that the compassion is only supposed to go one way - towards the alcoholic. I don't hear anyone advising alcoholics to be compassionate towards "co-dependents" . . . rant, rant.

I am very angry today at the anxiety that was caused by the slip and now wondering what will happen next because the sober living environment will not tolerate another slip - so the stakes are very high and trust has been broken (for me, personally).

LaTeeDa

I understand the pain you are feeling, as do many others on this board. Some of us have learned the hard way that we cannot force our will onto someone else. No matter how good it would be for them, or how much we love them. Some are still in the process of learning. I know it probably sounds impossible to you right now, but the sooner you accept that you have no control over what he does or doesn't do, the sooner you will feel some relief.

L

seek

I accept I have no control and it still hurts.

LaTeeDa

Yes, it does. I wish it didn't. I hope you find some comfort among others who understand your pain. Both here and at the meeting.

L

incitingsilence

One it isn’t personal, they don’t use at us…
Two there will be no way to understand his alcoholism, and your aren’t suppose to. And to make it all worse if that is where you fixate on his why’s, there will never be any answers found that make sense. Stop looking at him to gauge anything and start looking at yourself.

About the compassion, how do you expect someone to love another when they don’t love and care enough about themselves? Don’t know even know how important it is for them too.

And you could take that question, do any active alcoholics have any idea how their decision effects others and flip it around to do the active codependents have any idea how their reactions effect the addicts in their lives? And yes this is a very valid question.

I know it is hard to understand but putting all the blame on him ain’t gonna fly, everyone has to take responsibility for their part in the madness… Addiction is called a family disease for a real good reason, everyone plays their part and plays it so well they could win an oscar!


I could ask why is anyone paying for rehab and sober housing for an adult child … Isn’t he capable of finding a way out himself….was he ever given the chance to…

One thing is certain if he went through rehab, whether he wanted to be there or not he got some education of what he has to do…now the thing will be is he done yet and everyone around him will help with that determination and he won’t be done real easy if everyone is still enabling, is wrapped up in a look what he has done too…when it could really been seen as look what was allowed…we are only a victim once after that we are all in playing the game.

There is a lot to learn, from what you wrote of about you, I would suggest you stop worrying about his recovery or lack of it and start looking for your own.

See him as capable, love him as is and let him go to learn by living it his way, it will in the end be the only way. I know relapse is seen as so bad but there is so much learning in it, and he wouldn’t have relapsed if he wasn’t done and it isn’t a bad thing…sometimes what seems like the worst thing to happen is exactly what needed to happen for them to live through, learn from.

Believe always…

seek

I wrote the rant because I was having feelings, which I feel are "legitimate" - just needed to express them. Like I said in my OP, I don't believe that I "need" anyone to be alcoholic - yes, "they" say it is a family "disease" and there are roles people play - but I would much prefer to have a functional, happy, healthy family . . .I think that is common sense.

He was given the rehab and sober living because, as a family, that is what we chose to do. He had been roaming the streets, drunk. He is a much beloved member of our family and we all wanted to give him the gift of rehab, which he wanted. I don't think I should have to defend that.

I can't understand this forum . . .if you write that something is a rant, you aren't necessarily looking for advice. When someone titles their post "I would like advice," (like one person did) THEN advice is wanted.

You know better than to give an alcoholic unsolicited advice, but "you" (talking in general to whomever it might apply to) don't mind giving unsolicited advice to people on the forum who clearly state they are ranting. By definition, rants are not PC - I get to have my messy, un-PC feelings, and I chose to express them here.

I did go to a meeting and did hear some wisdom.

I still have some resentments, which I will continue to process in "safe" places.

I am not asking anyone to validate my sentiments, just please give me space and the dignity to express my truth without insisting that "you" know better.

Just please be respectful that way.

Thank you!

seek

And, oh, it IS personal, when other people in a family system are being hurt. It may be unconscious and unintentional, but it is personal, because I am a person in relationship with the alcoholic and their actions impact me to one degree or another.

LaTeeDa

Seek,

It's not that I think I know better than you. I have been where you are. Recovery is not something that happens in a moment. It's a long and difficult journey. When I share the lessons I've learned, it's not with any intention of telling you that you are wrong. It's with the intention of sharing my journey. Like shining the light in a particular direction if you are interested in going that direction. Each of us must walk our own path. I believe each one of us here who has been in that dark place would like to ease the pain of others by sharing our journey. But, you have your own journey. Your life is important. Your peace and happiness are important. And those things are not dependent on what anyone else chooses to do, no matter who they are or how much you love them.

L

Ghostly

Seek - I understand you were venting and I totally appreciate what you wrote. I can identify with a lot of it, and don't blame you one bit for the feelings you have. You are in a very difficult situation. I have felt similar frustration. I wish you the best with your situation.

laurie6781

Well I heard it said many years ago when I first arrived in AA, that the alcoholic affects at least 20 people around them. I have a 'funny feeling' that, that figure is higher today.

While the alcoholic is using, the only thought is more alcohol. That is fact. The body and the mind crave MORE and MORE.

In one way it is a good thing that your family got together and paid for rehab, as he will now have some tools when he has finally had enough. Paying for his Sober Living Facility, well................................. again it is your family choice but it might be better if he HAD TO GET A JOB of SOME KIND, be it DAY LABOR, CONSTRUCTION, FLIPPING BURGERS, as a CONSEQUENCE of his actions and to learn how to be responsible and live sober.

Rehab is not a cure, it's a means to learn some tools to help in sobriety.

If he continues to 'relapse', you can give him the number of The Salvation Army in your area, as they have an excellent rehab, has a pretty good success rate for those that WANT recovery and is FREE.

In the meantime, I understand your rant. IT does hurt. Not only am I a recovering alcoholic with over 30 years continuous sobriety I am also an Alanon member for over 27+ years. So I know both sides of the coin.

It took 3 years into my recovery before my family and the few friends that 'stuck it out' really started to 'trust' me again. This after 24 years of drinking, 22 of it alcoholically, I started when I was 12. They started to trust me again, not because of my verbal amend (step 9 in the 12 step program) but because of MY ACTIONS. They watched me change, they watched my actions changed.

In AA it's called a 180 degree turn in perspectives. Other programs call it something else. That 180 takes time, a lot of time. It is not a magical thing. That is why Alanon came to be. To help the 'loved ones' of the A's to keep moving forward even if their A is standing still for a while.

So, rant away, we do understand!

J M H O

Love and hugs,

seek

Yes, my peace and happiness are important and I don't live in a vacuum, so for me, my happiness is impacted when people I love choose to self-destruct. I realize I am attached that way. It is a personal value.

The way out is not to care what the person does, to a certain degree.

And depending upon the person and how cherished they are, that can be a grieving process to let go of the dream about the person's level of health.

It is counter-intuitive for parents and grandparents not to care about their kids or grandkids.

Trust me, there are lots of other people in my life I could easily separate myself from because I don't love them that much or maybe even like them that much.

I know for a fact I would not be sick about a love relationship the way I am about a child I have nurtured since he was a baby. I did everything in my power to guide him morally and spiritually - to at least set him on the right path - and so did a lot of other people . . .years of loving guidance was given . . .you don't walk away from such a commitment lightly.

I pray that he will find his path and be guided and I am powerless over what he chooses to do. The current scenario is not ideal and I have feelings about that.

I don't understand not giving the space to allow people to have feelings - it's like everything that is written here must be "program" approved or recovery-oriented and to me, that is skipping the messy part - the feelings about how it is disappointing, how it hurts, how you had NO IDEA THIS WAS EVEN A POSSIBILITY, etc.

If I die tomorrow, I will be sad that it all ended this way for me - and I think that is legitimate.

I am happy for all of the others who have found peace and serenity with alcoholics (but I will bet you that nine out of ten of them are not talking about their kids or grandkids) . . .

If there are parents or grandparents who have found such serenity, I would love to hear from them - I know they are out there, but you don't hear their stories often.

Isollae

Seek - I'm sad for you and your family and glad for your grandson that he has your love and support.

I've said things similar to what someone said in one of your meetings about "if they didn't drink". My hubby is 50 with 50 years of personality settling behind him...your grandson is 18. Hes still forming the him that'll live another 50 or more years. If it was my 18 year old grandkid and not my 50 year old hubby, I would never ever think such thoughts let alone say them.

18 is an age full of hope and promise for the future. Even if that 18 year old is drinking like hes gone crazy.

The 'program' approved type words are ways to help ourselves deal with this awful thing that alcohol does to people and families, thats all. We learn what we can from it as it applies to our lives and only we know when or if any of those words can help us through it all.

Please rant, cry or whatever else you need to express. You have my hope and prayers for you and your family and I'll listen if you just need to unload some of what your going through.

seek

Thank you. You are very kind

m1k3

Seek, ranting is always welcome. Sometimes you need to get the poison out of your system.

One thing I learned on here though is when you place a rant in front of a bunch of codies, especially codies that have felt what you have felt, they are going to want to help. At least for me it's who I am. So, something I have learned both here and in al-anon is:

Take what you want and leave the rest.

If it's useful feel free to grab it, if it's not just ignore it. While that post may not help you it might very well be a big help to someone else reading the thread.

After all, we are all here for each other.

Your friend,

Chino

I found serenity and detachment before my 24 year old RAD found recovery, and she was still living at home (we kicked her out every time she relapsed, allowing her to come home when she was ready for sobriety again). It was the most difficult thing I've ever learned to do, and it took me three years of working at it every day. Many times it took the entire day!

I didn't do it by focusing on her, I did it by focusing on myself. I'm 48 years old and had to learn an entire new way of thinking. I learned and accepted that nothing is personal from anyone. Someone can make something personal, but it's a choice to take it personally. I began to stop taking everything personally. Other people's issues are theirs, not mine.

Her addiction is a partial reflection of me, ONLY at the cellular level (dna). I learned everything I could scientifically about addiction. I stopped asking why she did things, learned how and what was going on, then accepted she had a hijacked brain I wasn't powerful enough to heal. I did and continue to do everything possible to assist her recovery, though.

I learned about boundaries: http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...-you-have.html

I made healthy boundaries my goal, and began to treat everyone the way I wanted to be treated. The Golden Rule! I accepted I couldn't make others treat me the way I wanted, so it was up to me to step away and learn to protect myself. The more I treated myself with respect and compassion, the more I treated others the same, especially my daughter.

When I feel any negative emotion, it's my responsibility to understand where it's coming from and to work through it. It's my responsibility to change what I can and let go of what I can't. It's my responsibility to own my issues, just as it's others responsibility to own their stuff. I firmly believe no one is responsible for my happiness, just as I'm not responsible for others happiness.

What I have learned is respect, and I did it with these 12 steps and a therapist who specializes in addictions.

I pray you want serenity bad enough that you seek and pursue it with everything you've got. It's worth the effort

incitingsilence

I also found recovery before my son did.

And while I have no idea what program approved is, who’s program, who’s approval…one thing I had was knowing how the reactions to me using as a teen confused me and also became a great fuel to use to justify why I used ( did I really need any help that gave me more reasons I could justify ) …. The reactions even became a driving force to move on to other more dangerous drugs than what I was completely content with using …

There is a set pattern, is rarely deviates from the second you find out the child is using to the second they decide they are done….in the middle is ugly, in the middle our loving reactions teach them how to be sneakier, how to get better at being an addict, enabling gives them time to adjust each time it hurts, each time they might learn something they need to save themselves…we take so much learning away, we teach lessons I am sure none of us would condone.

And maybe you don’t hear the stories because there is no need to constantly dredge up the pain and all that “look what they did to me“ oops maybe what was allowed? to have what you share be valid. Actually is there a reason too? I figure if anyone is in a place like this they have a reason to be and have watched or live it, or both.

When you are advised to just let him go, let him live, let him make the choice and just work on you it is for many good reasons. And while there is no right way, there are many wrong ones that keep not only the child trapped but us as well. We don’t need to react, we choose to and we use love as the reason when in so many cases our reactions can turn out to be the most unloving acts we ever committed.

And I know how easy it is to get sucked into the trap, and that can’t you see how sick and desperate they are…but while they may be sick, desperate, lost and confused…how do we help when we are much the same and driven by not only our feelings and fears for them but what their action and feelings trip in us…

My gift to my son was loving him no matter if he used or not, actually I stopped gauging anything on using or not using and created boundaries that made sense, and didn’t have motive behind them that helped him, but helped me and kept me out of what wasn‘t mine to fix, wasn’t something I could fix.

Logically…

Would the path my son was on and the fact that he fell flat on his face and hit hard have been if he wasn’t smoking crack…I tend to think he was exactly where he should be, based on his choices as to how he wanted to live in them moments.

We focus on their why’s forgetting to look at ours…
We focus on the lies, missing the truth they always show…
We see them as incapable, and needing to be helped, and yet if my son could walk miles to find to get drugs, why couldn’t he walk to find and get help, or a job or to do anything….think about it.
We see them as unintelligent and my god the things they pull off, the scams they run to get cash, get anything…they are good….as I smile in many cases we taught them well….see above, our reactions teach them to be the best of the best…I know this one personally I wouldn’t have became such a sneaky master manipulator without my mother, she was so good at it and a control freak … oh wait add some teenage mentality to that, some teenage spitefulness, some teenage bullet proof … some my parents will not win… oh yeah now there is a recipe that will so not help this at all.

And if for a second you could stop talking, stop taking every word they say so personal and start listening, just listening you can hear it, in them, you hear the bad, how bad it really is, but you also if you keep listening can here them wanting more.

And when they really are done playing head games with themselves their actions show that I’m done as much as active addiction always looks just like active addiction

You can opt out at any time…

And in the end, sadly while there are no guarantees it is not at all impossible to just love them, accept they for are who they are, accept you can’t save them, and be grateful they are still among the breathing, chances and opportunities and lessons will be a constant for him, and as long as he is still here breathing, and no one takes the learning away…

There is always hope, always, until…