choublak

I grew up Catholic, and in second grade we had to have our first Reconciliation, or confession, if you will. You go into the confessional and confess your sins to the priest, and he "forgives" your sins.

This was in SECOND GRADE.

I was SEVEN.

I remember first thinking I would tell the priest I hadn't done anything bad, then deciding I would think up something to say. I don't even remember what I "confessed". A couple years later, I got yelled at in the confessional, by the Filipino priest at the church, for not coming to confession enough. Because you have to say how long it has been since your last confession, and I couldn't remember. I was glad when that priest went back to the Phillipines lol. Anyway, instilling guilt in the minds of children, when there shouldn't be any, is a petri dish for codependency.

I also was always confused by the whole "you can do anything you put your mind to" thing they tell kids in school. I thought, "oh, so if I put my mind to making so-and-so do blank, it'll happen!" Haha. That motivational quote needs to be edited, IMHO.

WendyOWilliams

How about this little ditty they taught me in Catholic training:

"Forgive me Father, for I have sinned.
I have sinned through my own fault -
in my thoughts and in my words.
In what I have done,
and what I have failed to do."

Wow. No pressure lol.

LifeRecovery

I was also raised Catholic in a very big Catholic family.

For a chunk of my recovery I made Catholic an adjective. "This feels Catholic," was a common phrase.

I think it was part of the dynamics of my family that got me into trouble. I know it has been part of the challenge of my recovery. Luckily I am still capable of learning and that I can take the parts I like and leave the rest.

Thumper

I'm Catholic too.

TakingCharge999

Now unlearning it Thank God...

Right now I feel upset because someone I don´t even know kind of dismissed me...

Ah, to me codependency goes hand in hand with abandonment...

Always starving for some love, attention and a pat on the head. Very pathetic.

nicam

Me too (at least the family is, no organized religion for me), and they are ALL codependent, addicts, or both.

IMO there's a direct correlation between Catholicism and this type of suffering.

Isollae

I wasn't raised Catholic but my husband was and my children have been. My father was a preacher...sorry, the correct word is "Reverend"! however.

Maybe its not Catholicism but simply religion. The whole concept of turning the other cheek and loving your enemy. I can't think of a single place in the bible were it says 'love thyself as you would another'.

LaneyT

I have really been thinking about my childhood lately. Trying to figure out how I got here. My mothers father was an alcoholic. I believe (nobody talks about anything) that my my had a problem with alcohol or drugs when I was really young. My step-dad had issues with drugs and alcohol when I was around 10 maybe sooner but that is what I remember.

That beeing said, I remember staying at my grandmas alot when step-dad was using. I remember at times having to walk on egg shells (learned from my mom) when my step-dad was "moody". I can remember being at my grandmas when grandpa would get drunk and verbally abusive and we would leave and go to her sisters down the street. My family hid things ie their problems, feelings about their behavior etc.

So, I guess I learned alot growing up that has probably contributed to my being and staying and flat out denying/ignoring problems for so long.

tabatha

I was also raised catholic and they were heavy on the guilt. This thread has given me an awful lot to contemplate. It seems even if you weren't raised with an alcoholic parent the traits of codependency can originate from a lot of other places. I remember when my father died and my mother went in to a really deep depression and it was like I absorbed her pain and used to pray every night that I could take away her pain because I saw how deeply she was hurting. I wanted to 'fix' her so badly but couldn't. I also remember gravitating towards people who were 'different' or eccentric- those who society did not recognize as normally in the main stream. I started to see these people as more interesting, or needing help, or more attention, or more compassion, or more shielding, or whatever--. The line between helping those in need who asked for it and codependency became blurred.

StarCat

There wasn't any substance abuse or addiction in my family. That said...

Growing up whenever we were hurt as children my mother would tell us to "offer it up." Then she'd go on to play the martyr and moan and whine to anyone who would listen, or worse she'd go all passive-aggressive and go to sleep and we weren't allowed to do anything until she woke up again because it would either wake her up or she would miss seeing something she wanted to do with us.

She'd buy expensive chocolates because they were on sale, not let us eat them because someone in the family wasn't home and this was to be a treat for "everyone in the family to enjoy," and then we'd all be home the next day but she would have eaten it while everyone else was at work or school.

I learned early on that there were a lot of rules I had to follow that didn't really apply to anyone else, and that any time I was disappointed by someone else's behaviors it was my fault for being upset.

I also learned that if I didn't do what my mother wanted, or take the blame for something I didn't do when she wanted me to take the blame for it (even when I knew she was the one who did it), she'd take away the things I enjoyed. She'd break my favorite toys or knick-knacks, and I guarantee you I'm the only person you know who was ever punished by being told they weren't allowed to read books for a week.

I also learned that no one would ever defend me. My father after seeing something happen and knowing that my mother was in the wrong would still tell us to listen to our mother because she was right. Heck, my siblings and I would try to defend him against her when we knew she was wrong, and he'd tell us we were wrong and to stop arguing with our mother. So I also learned that there is no such thing as absolute truth, that it was something invented on a whim by whoever yelled the loudest, and that it was subject to change without any notice whatsoever.

But there is "Love your neighbor as you love yourself." Not "Love your neighbor more than you love yourself." It implies that you already love yourself, and that the more you care for yourself, the more you are able to care for your neighbor too.

I don't think it's religion itself that is to blame - it's people who are using religion to manipulate others.

The reason for "separation between church and state" in the United States was due, in part, to the fear that the government would corrupt religion. Up until that time it was very common practice for the governing body of a country to use their selected religion as part of their tools to manipulate and subjugate the least influential members of society.
Now that practice might not be so commonly used in governments themselves, but it's way too tempting for too many people to let go of that power, and so religion is still bent to serve the bender's purpose.

I was raised Catholic, and I still go to a Catholic Church, but my feelings on religion are different than they were growing up. I do not believe that skipping Mass on Sunday is a mortal sin, like the Church teaches, although I do believe that my mental state is better if I take the time to attend.
I have a friend who was also raised Catholic and is now going to a church of a different denomination. She asked me if she thought it was okay that she was still taking her daughter to the Catholic Church for her Confirmation, but attending the other denomination more regularly. The Catholic church, of course, is against this sort of thing, but my opinion? Whatever helps a person feel closer to God is where they need to be, and who the heck cares about others' opinions?

I believe that having a denomination while growing up is a good thing, because that's when you need some sort of framework (how many people would decide on their own to study and learn things if they didn't have to go to school?), but that at some point a person is free to explore their own thoughts and feelings on the matter and that there is even an obligation to challenge what they "know" in order to determine what that person as an individual truly believes. Otherwise it means nothing.
(Yes, in my case this means I had a lot of the "Catholic Guilt" to work through, too. I think my approach to that was a bit different, though... On days when I knew I'd have to go to confession I'd do something bad on purpose so I'd have something to say. "Bless me Father, for I have sinned. It has been one month since my last confession, and I kicked Jim while I was waiting in line to come in here because I couldn't think of anything to confess and I didn't want to feel left out by saying I didn't have anything to confess... I'm sorry I didn't do something earlier today but I didn't remember Confessions were today until we got here." Another fallback was to confess to "making my mother angry" - that was a good standby, too.)

Just like with recovery, there are many tools. I feel better when I go to Al-Anon meetings on a regular basis, but if I skip one because I feel I'd be better served by not going there's nothing wrong with that - as long as I don't allow that to become a habit and lose my discipline with focusing on my recovery.
Likewise the denomination doesn't matter - Al-Anon, AA, anniversaries, weekend retreats, friends, forums, therapy sessions - anything that helps is a good thing to do, and keeping a mix of things if that helps better is even better.

Sorry, didn't mean to type all this stuff about religion, but I guess it's something I've been thinking about a lot lately!

Isollae

That sounds like my dad..lol. Its hard not to love god and religion when its always been presented to you as something beautiful.

I don't know, my dad always said that the church you go to is irrelevant. Its how you live your life that matters. He didn't like the Catholic church...to much pomp and circumstance and he felt that it asked people not to think enough to pray in their own words.

Hubby on the other hand believes that the catholic church is the only church that has it right. He once told me that he would miss me when he died because only catholics go to heaven! I've been ok with the catholic church...not in love with it but its ok. I've rarely gone to church myself in the last few years though. It felt like a lie to walk into church with my lovely family. But I still believe in god and I still believe the bible has a lot of beauty in it.

Its funny how deeply we learn childhood lessons.

Your mom makes me think of Sally Forth cartoons and her kids easter bunny. Not at all funny if your mom restricts you and can not control herself.

neferkamichael

The 1st thing any human learns is by imitating others. When you are born we cant even feed ourselves, crawl, talk or much else. I believe being a "codie" is learned behavior. I too was raised a catholic, altar boy and all that. The catholic church taught me to be fearful and guilty. There was plenty of verbal abuse and a little physical abuse. Ther only reason I'm working on overcoming my resentments of the catholic church is because being resentful is a wastef my precious time.

nicam

You know, I think Catholic fear and guilt is ingrained in the culture of areas with a high Catholic population and influence. Where I grew up you were either Catholic, Jewish, or much less often Protestant. Even if you weren't involved in the church or practicing, those values and beliefs were handed down to you from many generations, ingrained in your psyche.

Religion seems like a breeding ground for codependency. Being taught that you are fundamentally flawed and only a power outside of yourself can save you. Being taught to put others first and sacrifice in the name of helping others. Shame. Guilt. Never being good enough.

Is the prescribed relationship between a human and God not codependent by nature? I think a lot of people have a codependency with religion, or their HP.

Thumper

I am Catholic (although not active right now) and I just have to say I do not think it played any part in my co-dependency. My divorce causes some problems for me as far as the church goes because my marriage was not annulled.

MyBetterWorld

The line blurs a little for me.....I feel what I believe is compassion at times, but I'm not sure if it's codie coming out. I feel sorry for my homeless XAH, feel compassion at times but generally do not act on that by giving him money or anything. Compassion or codie? I don't know. Can there be both?

Willybluedog

"Hubby on the other hand believes that the catholic church is the only church that has it right. He once told me that he would miss me when he died because only catholics go to heaven! I've been ok with the catholic church..."

This is one of my favorite jokes, Saint Peter is showing a new (but un-affiliated) man around heaven and he says to him, the Catholics are behind this door, and the Jews are behind this door, and the Penecostals are behind this door, and so on down the line.

And the guys stops him and says, well why are they all in separate rooms, and St. Peter says why do you think...they think they are the only ones up here.

Isollae

I've been thinking about it the last few days and I think I'd have to agree for myself too. Its funny, I read a post where someone said words I believe about marriage vows and it hit me so hard. I was actually shaking as I typed a response. I felt so incredibly free after responding too that I thought wow, that must be all my staying was about. Thinking about it makes me laugh at myself, heh.

Those things matter to me, and certainly played a big part in keeping me married, but its not what made me able to tolerate a life that was all wrong.

I don't know, my parents were good people and I'm positive they always tried their best to be good parents. But they were definitely human and working your way through one persons slow death is hard on everyone in the family. Maybe just trying to find your way as a family through hardship tends to lead to dysfunction.

Seren

I don't believe that Catholic = codependent behavior patterns at all. I was raised by a protestant mother and a non-religious father. Yet I still developed those behavior patterns becuase I learned them at the hands of my mother. She was raised in a non-religious household with parents and step parents who were alcoholics.

I'm married to a devout Catholic man. This is my second (and final) marriage. In order for us to get married, I had to have my previous marriage annuled even though I was already divorced. The Catholic Church recognizes that some marriages are not valid in that one or both parties did not fully understand what the marriage sacrament entails. In cases of physical or emotional abuse or in the case of addiction, the husband or wife who leaves for their own health and safety, and that of their children, are not considered sinners.

DesertEyes

Lovely thread. Thanx everybody for being considerate of each other and all our differing opinions.

As far as my personal opinion and the question of this thread. I think all humans are born the same; naked and stupid. Everything else we learn along the way.

I think "co-dependency" is the result of a "character trait" that is used incorrectly. It's called "empathy". It's just a feeling that people have. Some of us have it more than others. When I feel empathy, and then act on that feeling in a positive way it is called "kindness".

When I feel empathy and act in a manner that turns out to be harmful it is called "co-dependency". Part of what used to drive my actions was fear, old fears reallly, that I learned as a child. My actions born of empathy were not "balanced", they were mostly reactions to that old fear. In recovery I learned how to identify those fears, how they influence my emotions and lead me to act in ways that are not healthy for me, or for others.

Today I still feel empathy. I have taken the time to learn how to _correctly_ help addicts and alcoholics. I donate to the Salvation Army and let the professionals do the direct help. I participate in meetings of al-anon and ACoA. I call people on the phone and ask them how they are doing. Not to give advice, or fix them in any way. Simply to listen to them so they don't feel so alone.

When I was married we took in some abused kids. We went to social services and made sure we were doing the right thing, got some paperwork done and so on. Later in life we had a few abused women stay at our place for a couple of days while they got situated with the local shelters. I've been a part of helping some of these women to get a new start, taught them how to maintain the furnace in a house, fix toilets, change fluorescent lights, get their car tuned up. I've been treasurer at some meetings, I've helped start meetings, and once I even helped start a whole new 12 step program called ISA. The folks who run ACoA asked me once to review their "Red Book" before it was first printed.

In my life co-dependency is an action I have done when my fears were greater than my knowledge. Now that I have learned the facts about addictions, and the facts about my own limitations, I stay away from situations I am not qualified or capable of handling. I have learned what things I _can_ do without getting tangled up in my old fears. As a result my life has become so much more serene, and so much more rewarding.

Mike

Pelican

Thank you for sharing this with us.