Another thread about love vs. codependence
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Another thread about love vs. codependence
Cyranoak's thread the other day has made me think. It has made me nod my head in agreeance, scratch my head in confusion, and made me shake it in complete disagreeance.
I get that alcoholism is a progressive condition that lasts a lifetime, I understand that it affects everyone around that person, etc etc. However- and maybe I read the thread wrong-it seems as though many people feel like real relationships-relationships with love-are impossible when they involve an alcoholic. I saw many comments about it just being 'codie love,' not 'real love' and I just got the overall impression that many people seem to dismiss the thought of relationships with alcoholics purely because they're alcoholics. Perhaps I'm just in a stage of denial of some sort...I'm still new...but it frustrates me. I understand that my RABF is an alcoholic. I understand that HE is the one that has to own his recovery. I understand that this is going to be a lifetime commitment for him and that it may come back next week, next year, 10 years, or 20. However, I also understand that although an alcoholic, he's still an amazing person with good qualities.
In Cyranoak's thread, Hopeworks said: "Feelings fade but character, integrity, honor, trust and stability is what we want to teach our children to look for and fall in love with because that is what lasts and makes for a lifetime of true happiness and serenity." If I feel that although the man I love is an alcoholic, but displays these traits, and as long as I set boundaries, continue to work on myself and MY recovery as well, doesn't that fall into the category of 'real love?'
Again, I'm new to this. I'd like to think that I have a realistic view of things. I left him before he got sober and we were seperated for a year, so I'm not worried about leaving. I feel like I have had codependent tendencies in the past, but that I am more aware of myself now. I am in this knowing that he doesn't 'need' me and I don't 'need' him, but that we both want to be together. Does this make sense to anyone else? Is this wrong? Input would be greatly appreciated.
I get that alcoholism is a progressive condition that lasts a lifetime, I understand that it affects everyone around that person, etc etc. However- and maybe I read the thread wrong-it seems as though many people feel like real relationships-relationships with love-are impossible when they involve an alcoholic. I saw many comments about it just being 'codie love,' not 'real love' and I just got the overall impression that many people seem to dismiss the thought of relationships with alcoholics purely because they're alcoholics. Perhaps I'm just in a stage of denial of some sort...I'm still new...but it frustrates me. I understand that my RABF is an alcoholic. I understand that HE is the one that has to own his recovery. I understand that this is going to be a lifetime commitment for him and that it may come back next week, next year, 10 years, or 20. However, I also understand that although an alcoholic, he's still an amazing person with good qualities.
In Cyranoak's thread, Hopeworks said: "Feelings fade but character, integrity, honor, trust and stability is what we want to teach our children to look for and fall in love with because that is what lasts and makes for a lifetime of true happiness and serenity." If I feel that although the man I love is an alcoholic, but displays these traits, and as long as I set boundaries, continue to work on myself and MY recovery as well, doesn't that fall into the category of 'real love?'
Again, I'm new to this. I'd like to think that I have a realistic view of things. I left him before he got sober and we were seperated for a year, so I'm not worried about leaving. I feel like I have had codependent tendencies in the past, but that I am more aware of myself now. I am in this knowing that he doesn't 'need' me and I don't 'need' him, but that we both want to be together. Does this make sense to anyone else? Is this wrong? Input would be greatly appreciated.
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My thoughts are you are talking about an alcoholic that is in recovery. I am talking about an alcoholic that has quit drinking but not recovering. Stopped AA, therapy, and is not working the 12 step program or any program for that matter. So, I think that is the difference. He is good at doing those things for 3 or 4 months when he thinks he is losing me.
Others correct me if I am wrong.
Others correct me if I am wrong.
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Thanks for the response. I also agree that there is a difference. I have many family members and friends who are not supportive of a relationship with an alcoholic-recovering or otherwise, so maybe this is why I got on the defense about this.
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I can see that, too. I do not think I would knowingly put myself in a relationship with an alcoholic or recovering again. I have lost all trust and would think if I am going to deal with it I might as well be with the father of my children. But, I have fought for him harder than he has fought for himself for 8 years now. I wish you the best of luck and sounds like your RABF is on the right track! Best wishes!
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I think the key thing for me is that... While you can love someone... Inn order for there to exist a meaningful relationship, the love has to be a) mutual and b) expressed in action.
Love is an action verb.
If my partner doesn't show me through his actions, all the shiny words and promises don't matter one bit.
And an actively drinking alcoholic is unable to maintain any kind of meaningful relationship, because his or her focus and priority will always be drinking.
I'm harsh, but I would not get involved with a RA either. I would never be able to feel rooted and safe in a relationship with an addict, no matter how far into recovery. That doesn't say anything about RAs though - only about me.
Love is an action verb.
If my partner doesn't show me through his actions, all the shiny words and promises don't matter one bit.
And an actively drinking alcoholic is unable to maintain any kind of meaningful relationship, because his or her focus and priority will always be drinking.
I'm harsh, but I would not get involved with a RA either. I would never be able to feel rooted and safe in a relationship with an addict, no matter how far into recovery. That doesn't say anything about RAs though - only about me.
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Originally Posted by button21 
In Cyranoak's thread, Hopeworks said: "Feelings fade but character, integrity, honor, trust and stability is what we want to teach our children to look for and fall in love with because that is what lasts and makes for a lifetime of true happiness and serenity." If I feel that although the man I love is an alcoholic, but displays these traits, and as long as I set boundaries, continue to work on myself and MY recovery as well, doesn't that fall into the category of 'real love?'
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Yes... we can fall into "real love" with an alcoholic and if they do enter authentic recovery and continue to grow spiritually and as a person there is a chance for lasting happiness.
I am currently with a recoverying A that I have been with for over 4 years and he is simply an amazing and wonderful man when sober (all the time now) but if he weakens and has one little sip he will eventually relapse into a state of oblivion...it is the nature of his severe disease.
Today he is strong...he hates and despises alcohol and is a long,long way from a drink but who knows about a thouisand tommorows from today?
It is something I have chosen to live with because we are crazy about one another and yes... he is man of integrity and honor and he is the exact opposite if you add alcohol.
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One thing I hope that folks don't take away from all of this is an idea that because someone is an alcoholic, they do not deserve to be loved.
Sometimes the most loving thing that someone can do for an alcoholic in active addiction is to leave them alone to experience all of the consequences of their own choices--just as we all do as adults. We can love them, but we can love them without being in the passenger seat of the addiction train.
Sometimes the most loving thing that someone can do for an alcoholic in active addiction is to leave them alone to experience all of the consequences of their own choices--just as we all do as adults. We can love them, but we can love them without being in the passenger seat of the addiction train.
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button, Congrats to your H on his sobriety. What a beautiful gift he has given himself and his loved ones. Wishing you both a lifetime of happiness.
This is my own personal interpreation of what Cyranoak said.
Anyone who has ever lived with an active alcoholic for any period of time knows the gut wretching daily hell that it brings. Life becomes insane. Never knowing what is going to happen next, there is zero security in an active alkie's household. Jobloss, money issues, legal problems, trips to the emergency room, the ranting and raving, the drama, the loud yelling and cussing, caused by the active alcoholic's selfish actions are a daily event. People are walking on eggshells. Spouses and children are being verbally and physically abused. Often the first words out of the spouse's mouth are....... "But I love him/her."
Cyranoak simply stated that this is NOT love. ...... The addict will not stop drinking for his wife, kids, siblings or parents. To stay in a toxic situation in the name of love is self contradictory. Love can not reside in a household where alcoholism rules the roost. The disease is too powerful. It's like a hurricane it will destroy everything in it's path.......
There truly is no "happily ever after" living with an active alcoholic. to be in love, just for the sake of being in love, is pure fiction.
Cyranoak speaks of self love. To honor and respect yourself first. That is a true gift that we can give to others.
Again, this is just what I took from reading Cyranoak's powerful post.
This is my own personal interpreation of what Cyranoak said.
Anyone who has ever lived with an active alcoholic for any period of time knows the gut wretching daily hell that it brings. Life becomes insane. Never knowing what is going to happen next, there is zero security in an active alkie's household. Jobloss, money issues, legal problems, trips to the emergency room, the ranting and raving, the drama, the loud yelling and cussing, caused by the active alcoholic's selfish actions are a daily event. People are walking on eggshells. Spouses and children are being verbally and physically abused. Often the first words out of the spouse's mouth are....... "But I love him/her."
Cyranoak simply stated that this is NOT love. ...... The addict will not stop drinking for his wife, kids, siblings or parents. To stay in a toxic situation in the name of love is self contradictory. Love can not reside in a household where alcoholism rules the roost. The disease is too powerful. It's like a hurricane it will destroy everything in it's path.......
There truly is no "happily ever after" living with an active alcoholic. to be in love, just for the sake of being in love, is pure fiction.
Cyranoak speaks of self love. To honor and respect yourself first. That is a true gift that we can give to others.
Again, this is just what I took from reading Cyranoak's powerful post.
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Active alcoholics do not have relationships, they take hostages.
As for me, my boundary is that I will never be in a relationship with an alcoholic/addict recovering or not.
That's just me.
I lived for too many years in close proximity to the disease to ever do that to myself again. It almost killed me.
Your friend,
As for me, my boundary is that I will never be in a relationship with an alcoholic/addict recovering or not.
That's just me.
I lived for too many years in close proximity to the disease to ever do that to myself again. It almost killed me.
Your friend,
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An active alcoholic is incapable of having a real relationship, that's what it means. I may feel like I'm in love with one but what I think of as love is directed at someone whose higher power and true love is in a bottle. And all the love, hope and wishes won't make the slightest difference in the alcoholic's drinking. And if I continue with this great "love" I am simply deluding myself.
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I took the post as (once again...for me only), why do I choose to get into and stay in relationships with someone who is not capable of loving him/her self enough to work on their own recovery?
This and other posts have made me really think about recovery in the last few weeks. I have my own addiction...and it made me consider if I was worth the risk of a relationship.
I decided I was. I also decided that if I was able to discern someone working their own recovery about life (cause lets face it we all have stuff) it would be a relationship I would be willing to give a go to....because I trust myself enough now (or will by the time I decide to dip my toes into another relationship).
I am still struggling with appropriate boundaries and codependent traits at the moment....but posts like this and others are so helpful in my journey of figuring it out for me. I am so grateful for this place.
This and other posts have made me really think about recovery in the last few weeks. I have my own addiction...and it made me consider if I was worth the risk of a relationship.
I decided I was. I also decided that if I was able to discern someone working their own recovery about life (cause lets face it we all have stuff) it would be a relationship I would be willing to give a go to....because I trust myself enough now (or will by the time I decide to dip my toes into another relationship).
I am still struggling with appropriate boundaries and codependent traits at the moment....but posts like this and others are so helpful in my journey of figuring it out for me. I am so grateful for this place.
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