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I've been seeing a lot of love stuff lately...

Old 01-03-2012, 08:50 AM
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I've been seeing a lot of love stuff lately...

...but rather than post in an existing thread and hurt people's feelings directly, I'll risk it indirectly by just saying this:

Love doesn't matter to alcoholism and addiction. It can't cure it, it can't control it, and it sure as hell doesn't stop it. Not love for children, not love for husbands and wives, and not love for mothers and fathers.

It is the single worst enemy of the victims of alcoholism and addiction because it is so useless in the face of this disease, and delays for so long the decisions and actions that can and should be made to help those suffering from it. "I love them so much," "I'll love them until the day I die," "they're my soul mate," "I'll never find anybody else like them," "nobody will ever love me like they love me," "I'll never love anybody like I love them."

Please. It's all so melodramatic, poetic, and Shakespearean. It's also not true.

I love the drama of love, and I struggle with my addiction to it (and perhaps my alcoholic wife), but make no mistake that it has been absolutely my worst enemy in my battle with the disease of alcoholism. "Love" is a barrier to recovery-- for some it is the barrier to recovery.

Let go of the drama, let go of the Hallmark fantasy, and start making your decisions based on reality. What people do (NOT what they say), how you want to live, and when it applies what is truly best for your children and you-- not your addict or alcoholic.

Take what you want and leave the rest.

Cyranoak
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Old 01-03-2012, 08:56 AM
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Awhile back you said, "Love is just the key that starts the car; it does not drive it."

Couldn't be more truthful.
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Old 01-03-2012, 09:21 AM
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Brilliant, to the point, and true. Thank you.
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Old 01-03-2012, 09:23 AM
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My inside is twisting right now. You are so right, but my inside wants to oppose what you say. How can anyone say anything against love, the most powerful feeling of all? I, as a codependent, am stuck with this idea of love, my system of beliefs. Yet, that very romantic perception of love and idealism brought me where I am today, stuck.

Painfully true.
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Old 01-03-2012, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Cyranoak View Post
...
Love doesn't matter to alcoholism and addiction. It can't cure it, it can't control it, and it sure as hell doesn't stop it. Not love for children, not love for husbands and wives, and not love for mothers and fathers.

It is the single worst enemy of the victims of alcoholism and addiction because it is so useless in the face of this disease, and delays for so long the decisions and actions that can and should be made to help those suffering from it.

Cyranoak
Oh my gosh Cyranoak.....you are Sage Wise on this. THANK YOU for stating it in such clear terms. I've been touching around the edges of this, realizing my romantic fantasies hold me securely to such profound pain. I'm printing this out....and will read it every day. THANK YOU
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Old 01-03-2012, 09:41 AM
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If love could save an addict, not one of us would be here.

Love is good, but sometimes it takes real love to let go. As the founder of SR, a recovering addict named Jon, once said "We may just love them right into their grave."

Hugs
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Old 01-03-2012, 09:46 AM
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Over the years I have come to realize that love is not really the "emotion" we feel. That's just another form of infatuation.

Love is an action. It is the determination to do good for the beloved. This is where we get tripped up.

We think it is for the good of someone else to take care of their every need, to do everything for them, to clean up their messes, to make sure they never feel any pain or sorrow or fear.

But keeping someone in an artificial world devoid of problems and sorrows is not really helping them lead fulfilled and productive lives in the long run whether it is a child, a spouse, or a parent. The real world is messy, and we all need to deal with it as best we can.

And what about self love? We are not doing what is best for us in the long run if we completely subordinate ourselves to the needs and demands of another person under the misconception that it is our job to do so. Our health, or joy, and our peace are important, too.

Peace and serenity to you all!

Just my 2 cents....HG
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Old 01-03-2012, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by hydrogirl View Post
It is the determination to do good for the beloved. This is where we get tripped up.
Pierre Reverdy said, "Il n'y a pas d'amour, il n'y a que des preuves d'amour."

"There is no love, there are only proofs of love."
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Old 01-03-2012, 10:59 AM
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This is one of the most important things I work on every day. Knowing what love is and isn't. Looking back on my marriage, I can honestly say my perception of love was messed up. I've since come to believe that my "love" for him was selfish. I wanted him to be a certain way and I called that love. I presumed to know what was best for him, but really it was what was best for ME. That's not love. Today I strive to love people exactly the way they are, whether I like them or not. That doesn't mean I let other people wreak havoc in my life, but it also means I let them be and allow them to walk their own path. It's not always easy, but the rewards are immense.

L
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Old 01-03-2012, 11:01 AM
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Great thread (((((Cyranoak)))))!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Many many folks do not understand also, that when they arrive at a 'new' relationship and it is 'love', or 'I have met my soul mate,' pure and simple it is LUST. The 'excitement' of someone new, the 'excitement' of 'new' conquests, etc

It takes a lot of 'soul searching' and inner seeking, I M H O before one can really know if what they feel is "Love", "Lust", "Compassion", "Pity", etc

I M H O Love cures nothing, and in the "Name of Love" we humans can get ourselves into some really bad predicaments.

Again, thank you for starting this thread!

Love and hugs,
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Old 01-03-2012, 11:16 AM
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OK, so here it is in a nutshell:

Codependents need to detach FROM love, not detach WITH love.

I think you may be onto to something here.
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Old 01-03-2012, 11:32 AM
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Craynoak,
I get exactly what you are saying. I too am Married to an AW. I did not always get it, but I've come to understand it. I understand your frustration all too much. Your post is 100% right. Love is it's own addiction. Regardless of the facts, it does still exist. The same love that you described can also be a part of the solution as well. It can be positive in some ways. You can call it "tough love" or whatever you want. Just because all of the things you said are true it unfortunately wont stop people from loving someone with or without a disease such as this one. Thank you for putting it into perspective. It is as true as it is hard to hear.
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Old 01-03-2012, 12:08 PM
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As I am working my way through this with my AW, separated 9 months now, I have discovered the opposite of love is not hate, it is indifference.

Also, love is not permanent. It is OK for it to end. Sometimes it's just time to move on.

BTW, I do believe I was confusing a mix of compassion and guilt as love. Looking back I really believe I haven't loved her for a long time. I felt sorry for her and she knew how to use that to keep me attached.

Your friend,

Edit ( she knew how to use that so I would keep myself attached. "I can't make it without you", "you could never make it on your own without me" and "we have been through so much together, you owe me". I'm not buying that any more. )
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Old 01-03-2012, 12:18 PM
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Great thread,

I have learned love for others cannot exist without love for oneself, this comes first. Otherwise its a fallacy. Thus I concluded I have loved no one (at least romantically), I used them just as much as they used me, difficult to grasp then but now with some years of reflection, its obvious...

Thanks to SR I can imagine something different now. Love yourself then boundaries will be clear and when boundaries exist you can love immensely and still not suffer nor cling to any notion/fantasy about something different than reality -because you are feeding off your own love and that is more than in enough. You are just loving aspects of you you see in others as mirrors, in the end its your own journey and no one else' s.

Sounds too philosophical/impossible but now with some peace in my world lately I do believe living this kind of life IS possible and for that I am grateful.
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Old 01-03-2012, 03:20 PM
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Awesome thread. My ex asked me if I still love him a few weeks ago. When I admitted that I do, he went into that idea that love fixes it all. Like it is some magical powder that you sprinkle in **** and it turns to gold.

I have learned that this is a very immature way to think about love, but then again, my ex (and other alcoholics) are very immature.
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Old 01-03-2012, 04:12 PM
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Thanks so much Cyranoak for beginning this thread. I was one of those "posters" you were talking about who has been pining for my EXABF. He left me rather than quit drinking and I beat myself up for it continuously for the last 6 months. He BTW moved on very quickly.

Lately I have come to the conclusion that HE in fact did me a favor. When I told him that asking him to quit or I would leave was the most loving thing I could do for him he agreed, however he made his choice. He doesn't want to quit drinking and is taking his addiction into his new relationship. I've heard that A's don't have relationships they take hostages.

I'm working on my Al Anon program and I am beginning to get healthier. In time when I feel recovered I'll venture into the dating scene again.

There is a new lightness in my chest due to this acceptance. I was loved as much as anyone can be loved by someone in the throes of addiction.

I didn't cause it, I can't cure it and no amount of love can control it...

Thanks again
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Old 01-03-2012, 04:38 PM
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"...for love is preserved by the link of obligation which, owing to the baseness of men, is broken at every opportunity for their advantage..." - Niccolò Machiavelli
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Old 01-03-2012, 04:56 PM
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Let me be clear...

...after all of my years in recovery I believe I do, in fact, love my wife. However, as so brilliantly pointed out by others in this thread what I perceived as love in the past was in fact controlling and codependent behavior with a huge dose of my addiction to drama (since lifted through Alanon) and perhaps my commitment to my marriage oath as I saw it.

It is through recovery that I learned what love, in my opinion, really is. My wife agrees and we were both shocked to learn, years later, that we really do love each other. We also agreed we could only do our relationship through the programs (AA and Alanon). What a relief after all the pain and misery to finally have some serenity in our relationship (not all serenity, but some serenity).

It's also a relief now, when I tell her I love her, that it doesn't mean anything other than that.

Take what you want and leave the rest.

Cyranoak

Originally Posted by FaithfulHusband View Post
Craynoak,
I get exactly what you are saying. I too am Married to an AW. I did not always get it, but I've come to understand it. I understand your frustration all too much. Your post is 100% right. Love is it's own addiction. Regardless of the facts, it does still exist. The same love that you described can also be a part of the solution as well. It can be positive in some ways. You can call it "tough love" or whatever you want. Just because all of the things you said are true it unfortunately wont stop people from loving someone with or without a disease such as this one. Thank you for putting it into perspective. It is as true as it is hard to hear.
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Old 01-03-2012, 05:32 PM
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It took me many years to learn that my mother was in love. She was not in love with my father, she was and is in love with alcohol, it is her only real friend, it is her lover, it whispers to her at night when everyone else is asleep and on the days when my father is away, it seduces her, it makes her feel whole.

Alcohol is my mothers only love, the rest of us are just there, we are props in her little play, pictures on her mantle, bric-a-brac to be dusted, when I finally realized this I hurt so bad, I was as sad as I have ever been, what a wasted life she has lived, of course she has not lived, she has existed in a state of suspended animation.

How sad to never love any person, I love her and I hate her, the pain she has caused all of us, her husband, children, friends, strangers that she has attacked because of some minor inconvenience or perceived slight.

I think that if there is a hell that she should go there, she should spend eternity enduring the same kind of pain she caused all of us.

I am working hard on not being bitter, on forgiving her, on forgiving my father for being her enabler for 58 years.

Sorry if I took this on a tangent, it's just when I think of alcoholics and love, this is what pops into my head.

Thanks for reading,

Bill
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Old 01-03-2012, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by artygirl View Post
There is a new lightness in my chest due to this acceptance. I was loved as much as anyone can be loved by someone in the throes of addiction.

Aww artygirl.. thanks, this helped me.
The same happened with XABF, if anything he keeps drinking (it has been 3 years) and I am no longer in his life so definitely I had nothing to do with it.

Yes you will start dating and it will be fun again and you will save time weeding out the bad ones, and will enjoy good times with people who are healthier and can bring good things to your life, and smiles, as it was supposed to be like in the first place.
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