Gentle input please
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
From my perspective, a lie is a lie, and has the same origin and the same effects, no matter why you tell them, or who you tell them to, or how old the receiver of the lie is. There are many reasons why I do not lie, and especially to children.
Some of those reasons are directly related to my work to maintain my personal Integrity at all times, something that as an ACOA I did not begin to work on until I was about 40. There are just some things I will not do.
Another is that the effect of one lie is just more and more and more lies, that culminate and grow over YEARS, decades, and LIFETIMES. A lie is not just a single telling of an untruth; to lie is to lead yourself down a path. As I said earlier, I am STILL paying for someone else's lie. In my house, "Don't tell" ruled and continues to rule our family, even though we "children" are all middle-aged adults.
Another reason is to protect my self-esteem, which I undertook working on a lot when I was in my 30s. The way I understand it is, if you value honesty, integrity, and yourself in general, when you lie you act in opposition to yourself, which takes a chunk out of your own self-esteem. Each and every time. If you have any sense of goodness, morality, or values, when you lie, you are hurting your self. AND those who come in contact with you because then THEY are drawn into and have to maintain your lie too. I believe this is part of the reason why they call Alcoholism a "Family Disease."
Another reason not to lie is because of what the bible says about it, which is that the devil is the Father of the lie. I don't want to associate with that sort of thing, whether or not "the devil" is real.
Lastly, you shouldn't lie to children because whether you are aware of it or not, especially as a parent, you are TEACHING them how to act in EVERYTHING you do. If YOU lie to THEM, THEY will lie to YOU. There are ways to tell the truth that even a 5-year old can handle.
If it were me and someone asked me for my advice about it, I would tell them not to lie to their children and try to come up with ways to word it so that the little ones will understand but not be frightened. Not overreacting, badmouthing the man, or creating a bunch of drama, or yelling or screaming comes to mind.
Some of those reasons are directly related to my work to maintain my personal Integrity at all times, something that as an ACOA I did not begin to work on until I was about 40. There are just some things I will not do.
Another is that the effect of one lie is just more and more and more lies, that culminate and grow over YEARS, decades, and LIFETIMES. A lie is not just a single telling of an untruth; to lie is to lead yourself down a path. As I said earlier, I am STILL paying for someone else's lie. In my house, "Don't tell" ruled and continues to rule our family, even though we "children" are all middle-aged adults.
Another reason is to protect my self-esteem, which I undertook working on a lot when I was in my 30s. The way I understand it is, if you value honesty, integrity, and yourself in general, when you lie you act in opposition to yourself, which takes a chunk out of your own self-esteem. Each and every time. If you have any sense of goodness, morality, or values, when you lie, you are hurting your self. AND those who come in contact with you because then THEY are drawn into and have to maintain your lie too. I believe this is part of the reason why they call Alcoholism a "Family Disease."
Another reason not to lie is because of what the bible says about it, which is that the devil is the Father of the lie. I don't want to associate with that sort of thing, whether or not "the devil" is real.
Lastly, you shouldn't lie to children because whether you are aware of it or not, especially as a parent, you are TEACHING them how to act in EVERYTHING you do. If YOU lie to THEM, THEY will lie to YOU. There are ways to tell the truth that even a 5-year old can handle.
If it were me and someone asked me for my advice about it, I would tell them not to lie to their children and try to come up with ways to word it so that the little ones will understand but not be frightened. Not overreacting, badmouthing the man, or creating a bunch of drama, or yelling or screaming comes to mind.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 451
That is a tough one. I know that if you tell the older kids the truth, the younger ones will find out anyway. Also, I don't think it would be right to tell the older kids the truth and put the burden of keeping the truth from the younger ones.
I think the solution needs to be one that is uniform.
I think the solution needs to be one that is uniform.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: right here, right now
Posts: 6,516
I understand the urge to protect the children, but as someone else said, you're really only protecting your husband by lying for him.
It's a tough balance to keep. I find myself wanting, for the sake of my children, to lie about their father. Often. Because you don't want small children to have to deal with the fallout of the bad decisions of adults.
But I've decided that my children are humans, too, and need to be told the truth. About everybody. Even about beloved people in their lives who make bad decisions.
Story to that point:
I grew up next door to beloved (alcoholic) relatives that we spent every holiday and much, much time with. I never understood why one of their children radically limited contact with this parents. In family lore, it was because he married a woman who was so full of herself she didn't allow him to have contact with extended family. He (and she) were painted as bad people who didn't support the older generation after the older generation had supported him throughout his life.
The truth? The son ran into his half-brother. He said it was like walking into a meeting and looking in a mirror. He didn't know he had a half-brother. His father had had an affair and his mother had dictated that should the truth about the baby he fathered out of wedlock ever come out, she would leave him. So this "******* child" grew up without a penny in support or even ever meeting his father. His half-brother, with whom I grew up, decided that was an unacceptable thing his parents had done, and broke contact with them.
But the rest of the family, very much aware of the truth, has continued lying for 40 years. If I had learned this as a child, it would have been part of my reality and I would have incorporated it with everything else I knew about these people. But them lying to everyone for 40 years, all the while punishing us children severely for lying? Made me lose a whole lot of respect for everyone involved. Including my parents.
It's a tough balance to keep. I find myself wanting, for the sake of my children, to lie about their father. Often. Because you don't want small children to have to deal with the fallout of the bad decisions of adults.
But I've decided that my children are humans, too, and need to be told the truth. About everybody. Even about beloved people in their lives who make bad decisions.
Story to that point:
I grew up next door to beloved (alcoholic) relatives that we spent every holiday and much, much time with. I never understood why one of their children radically limited contact with this parents. In family lore, it was because he married a woman who was so full of herself she didn't allow him to have contact with extended family. He (and she) were painted as bad people who didn't support the older generation after the older generation had supported him throughout his life.
The truth? The son ran into his half-brother. He said it was like walking into a meeting and looking in a mirror. He didn't know he had a half-brother. His father had had an affair and his mother had dictated that should the truth about the baby he fathered out of wedlock ever come out, she would leave him. So this "******* child" grew up without a penny in support or even ever meeting his father. His half-brother, with whom I grew up, decided that was an unacceptable thing his parents had done, and broke contact with them.
But the rest of the family, very much aware of the truth, has continued lying for 40 years. If I had learned this as a child, it would have been part of my reality and I would have incorporated it with everything else I knew about these people. But them lying to everyone for 40 years, all the while punishing us children severely for lying? Made me lose a whole lot of respect for everyone involved. Including my parents.
Forum Leader
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 10,944
Mr. HG's late wife was an alcoholic. He loved her as she was, where she was, inspite of her illness.
Is it possible that your grandchildren can be taught that they, too, can still love their grandfather inspite of his flaws and failings. Perhaps they can also learn how to create healthy boundaries for themselves within loving relationships.
Good luck to you and your son, whatever you decide.
Is it possible that your grandchildren can be taught that they, too, can still love their grandfather inspite of his flaws and failings. Perhaps they can also learn how to create healthy boundaries for themselves within loving relationships.
Good luck to you and your son, whatever you decide.
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
Not arguing really, just want to point something out which I believe is a common misconception. Someone said:
But lying "for" the alcoholic is not protecting the alcoholic. It protects ONLY the alcoholism, the disease. The alcoholic continues to suffer and decline.
you're really only protecting your husband by lying for him.
Chaotically Peaceful
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: A state of peace
Posts: 322
Personally, I have decided that my children have to be able to trust me no matter what. That means, I tell the truth. Period. Granted, I tell my children the truth in age-appropriate ways but it is always the truth.
Another thought, and I know some others have brought this up, is that you have to ask yourself who you are protecting by lying. Your husband, a grown man, has made choices that have led him to his own reality. If your son lies to his children, it may protect their papa's "reputation" for the time being. But what if they discover the truth? Then their father ends up losing credibility. In addition, if your husband doesn't ever enter a program of recovery, then a short term fix of lying only delays the inevitable uncovering of the truth.
I don't know. I know I'm kind of rambling but one of the things I hated the most about being in a relationship with an alcoholic was the lying. I will not perpetuate something with my children that hurt me so deeply.
Another thought, and I know some others have brought this up, is that you have to ask yourself who you are protecting by lying. Your husband, a grown man, has made choices that have led him to his own reality. If your son lies to his children, it may protect their papa's "reputation" for the time being. But what if they discover the truth? Then their father ends up losing credibility. In addition, if your husband doesn't ever enter a program of recovery, then a short term fix of lying only delays the inevitable uncovering of the truth.
I don't know. I know I'm kind of rambling but one of the things I hated the most about being in a relationship with an alcoholic was the lying. I will not perpetuate something with my children that hurt me so deeply.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 602
I vote for truth, but of course in a child-appropriate way. Maybe the older girls get the opportunity to ask more questions, for instance.
You don't have to answer this, but what does your son think about the girls continuing to have a relationship with their grandfather? Or indeed how anyone is going to have a relationship with him, if at all, from here on out? I mean this in the gentlest way: I wonder if this concern over what to tell the girls is really to do with you and your son trying to make sense of what happened and how it will fit into your life.
You don't have to answer this, but what does your son think about the girls continuing to have a relationship with their grandfather? Or indeed how anyone is going to have a relationship with him, if at all, from here on out? I mean this in the gentlest way: I wonder if this concern over what to tell the girls is really to do with you and your son trying to make sense of what happened and how it will fit into your life.
once in a . . .
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2004
Location: looking in / looking out
Posts: 1,214
Thank you all for sharing your thoughts + stories. You’ve pretty much said what I feel, what I already knew . . . and yes, what I don’t want to have to happen.
One of the hardest things I’ve ever had to do was tell my son that his step-dad was drunk + in jail . . . and son is an adult.
I don’t envy him having to tell 5 little daughters – I just talked to him + he is going to tell them the truth – that’s what kind of man he is. I know he’ll find a way to explain so that even the littlest one will understand, but not be scared. He’s a good kid.
Blue
ps. My husband IS in recovery. We met at an AA mtg 20 yrs ago, he’s been sober for 90% of that. HP just felt it was necessary for him to relapse. He will continue to be an important part in ALL of our lives.
He is going to be upgraded back to RAH from AH in my posts.
One of the hardest things I’ve ever had to do was tell my son that his step-dad was drunk + in jail . . . and son is an adult.
I don’t envy him having to tell 5 little daughters – I just talked to him + he is going to tell them the truth – that’s what kind of man he is. I know he’ll find a way to explain so that even the littlest one will understand, but not be scared. He’s a good kid.
Blue
ps. My husband IS in recovery. We met at an AA mtg 20 yrs ago, he’s been sober for 90% of that. HP just felt it was necessary for him to relapse. He will continue to be an important part in ALL of our lives.
He is going to be upgraded back to RAH from AH in my posts.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 120
He's a fighter! And has a great companion.
Love and support is what he needs now. He knows he made a mistake, we all make them.
Pretty hard for me to be judgmental.
When I read that he had been sober for 90% of all those years I thought "that's really good".
So, you have my best wishes and support!
Make it a happy holiday, at least for the little ones.
Love and support is what he needs now. He knows he made a mistake, we all make them.
Pretty hard for me to be judgmental.
When I read that he had been sober for 90% of all those years I thought "that's really good".
So, you have my best wishes and support!
Make it a happy holiday, at least for the little ones.
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
Sorry about the Relapse BlueMoon. I am glad you are able to see it as a "necessary" part of Recovery; I get that, totally. Although I would not even begin to compare myself with a person with that much accomplishment, I have also relapsed many times. It has only been recently, really since coming to SR, that I have even acknowledged them AS relapses! I really learned from the last one, though, and I hope your RAH is able to come away from this one having learned something key also. (((hugs))) the kids'll be okay, either way, though I'm glad ur son has decided to tell them the truth. Thank you for posting this, it has helped me more than you know.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 951
This isn't going to make them love him any less, in fact, it's going to make their love more real in the sense that they will know more about him and his struggles in life.
Because I have memories spanning back to age 2, the older girls may remember more than you realize. And in the long run I really think it would help any child to understand about the disease in an age appropriate way, because chances are they are going to encounter a loved one with it again down the road.
Because I have memories spanning back to age 2, the older girls may remember more than you realize. And in the long run I really think it would help any child to understand about the disease in an age appropriate way, because chances are they are going to encounter a loved one with it again down the road.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 602
Explaining his location is not really the difficult part. He's in jail because people who break the law have to go to jail.
What makes the message difficult is the fact that he's in jail because he threatened to kill Grandma--yet then in the same breath there's talk of "home for Christmas" and "he'll always be part of our lives." How are they meant to reconcile that?
And is your son on board with them seeing step-Grandpa again? Anyone who threatened to kill my mother would be dead to me. Yes, 20 years, recovery, disease, etc.--they'd still be dead to me. It's my mother. There are lines you don't cross.
Have you had a chance to speak with someone who could support you through this? It's a terribly traumatic thing you've had happen to you and I wonder if you're not in shock a little. Would it be possible to create some time apart for you two, to help you sort out your feelings?
What makes the message difficult is the fact that he's in jail because he threatened to kill Grandma--yet then in the same breath there's talk of "home for Christmas" and "he'll always be part of our lives." How are they meant to reconcile that?
And is your son on board with them seeing step-Grandpa again? Anyone who threatened to kill my mother would be dead to me. Yes, 20 years, recovery, disease, etc.--they'd still be dead to me. It's my mother. There are lines you don't cross.
Have you had a chance to speak with someone who could support you through this? It's a terribly traumatic thing you've had happen to you and I wonder if you're not in shock a little. Would it be possible to create some time apart for you two, to help you sort out your feelings?
Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: California
Posts: 693
You should probably tell them the truth. Maybe simplified a bit for the little ones who won't really understand. At some point they will all know, and it will be cleaner for everyone involved if they were told the truth from the beginning. Being that your situation is somewhat public, chances are that the older ones will hear about it eventually. Best they hear it from you. Hugs, and hang in there. So sorry you have to go through this.
Living in a Pinkful Place
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 7,545
prayers of healing, comfort and continued recovery for ALL affected by this disease in your family including you, your AH, your son & those precious little granddaughters~
PINK HUGS,
Rita
PINK HUGS,
Rita
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