wanttobehealthy

There are judgemental people and non-judgemental people in the world at large and surely this site is not without the same... But I think most of the time issues around judgement on here boil down to one persons sense of what is judgement vs anothers is very different. Someone might be very blunt and not intend to sound snarky, but on a computer screen it might come across differently than it's intended. I would hate to think that there were people here who are intentionally going out of their way to be rude to others. I just don't think that's the case...

Sometimes what we say triggers one another and people say things to try and implore others not to make the same mistakes they did...

I think the "take what you like and leave the rest" credo is a good one...

All of that said, I wanted to believe my stbxAH was really trying (and I did believe it) for a long time. And a lot of what upset me from some posters who don't really mince their words, was the stuff that seems to be upsetting you... Unfortunately, most of those posts were right. Someone working on recovery doesn't have to try and convince us of it. They just do it. They don't try to make you feel like you're doing something wrong bc you doubt their recovery bc they are working their recovery and you don't doubt it. More importantly, someone who is recovering is focussed on themselves, and that allows you to focus on you. Your ABF sounds like he remains the focus in your life and I think that YOU, not he should be the focus in your life...

Sorry you're feeling unsupported or judged... I can't speak for anyone else but anything I say on here is said from a place of caring and wanting to offer what I think might be useful. Do I judge in my life? Yes. I think so. Am I proud of it? No. For ex/ I posted today about how people who are drunk annoy me. Judgemental? Yup. But judging someone who is struggling with living with active alcoholism? Not something I'm going to do. Sending warm thoughts your way.

LifeRecovery

I often find I struggle the most when someone has hit upon something that is really raw and painful. There is often an element of surprise in there too. Often it is an emotional equivilant of a loose tooth. It all seems okay and then WOOZERS, the hurts happens.

For me then I start messing with the tooth, wiggling at it, poking at it, and guess what it hurts even more....at least for the time being.

I have been fortunate though that usually once the pain is FINALLYdiscovered, and I mess with it for a bit I decide to go to the dentist and get it fixed.

My experience when I feel the most hurt and judged is often similar. It brings up a reaction I don't necessarily want. I stew and hem and haw about it. When I am ready I move through it and only then can I let it go.

The closer to my heart the matter is the harder it is to do all those steps. Especially with my therapist I have had to do this on a number of occasions. I am almost always grateful though at the end....because it has allowed a release.

I hope you get to experience something similar. None of this is easy, but I have found it to be profoundly rewarding.

Tuffgirl

Heck, I come to this place for a swift kick in the pants...Anvilhead isn't the only one with an anvil head. : )

I come here for a reality check, because I know I can get all wrapped up in my own stinkin thinkin.

I come here to listen and contemplate responses and suggestions, and to receive guidance and hope.

If someone says something I think is wrong - I take some time to look at why I think its wrong and what right I have to determine someone else's words are "wrong" (or judgmental, or whatever...) Sometimes I react to things because of my own baggage. No, make that MOST OF THE TIME!

These people have hundreds of years of collective wisdom and I am grateful today to have this place as a fabulous compliment to my recovery program. Thank you all! Even when your words pi$$ me off!

Panther

I think what Chou is trying to say, and what may be hard for all of us to digest, is that the forum seems a little single minded in its approach. Every situation is different. What may be true in one person's life and situation, may be wrong in another's.

By applying a broad stroke to all alcoholics and to all the people who love and support them, we are depriving people of their uniqueness. You may think you know what it's like to be in someone's shoes just because you've experienced a similar situation - but you really don't. I think that is really the point of the thread. We all have our unique personal journey, and we really are not in the position to tell another - I know what is best for you.

I am a spiritual person, and I personally believe that the only person that can tell me what is best for me is God. And in my own spiritual journey I have found that God often guides me in directions that I don't necessarily want to go in. Much of what I feel is the right thing to do, is often the hardest, while at the same time it is the most fulfilling.

What the thread is calling for is a little self-reflection. Chou posted this thread, but I know there are many others who have come to this site and been turned off and left without voicing their opinion at all. This shouldn't be about majority rules, this should be about discussing. It is after all, called a Forum.

Panther

Seren

Hi Choublak,

I'm glad your bf is attending outpatient and hope that something about it will click with him soon. I'm sure it is frustrating when he tells you he feels like drinking but does nothing to stop the binge.

I just thought I would share that I've never read any of the "Codependent" books. If you did not find the book helpful, then you did not find it helpful. There is nothing wrong with that. I don't think there is anything wrong with my not having read it, either.

And.....although Mr. HG and I have attended Al-Anon, we do not at the moment because we are literally working from about 9 a.m. until about 11 p.m. right now.

We each have the right to make our own decisions about our lives. Our decisions about whether or not to remain in a relationship are ours to make, and the consequences of staying in any relationship--good and bad--are ours to handle.

Sadly, you have no control over how your bf works his recovery program. If it makes you angry that he does nothing to stop himself when he feels the desire to drink, that is your anger to handle because you have chosen to remain with him and support him. Mr. HG and I finally learned to detach from his son's drinking and drugging, and we are far calmer and happier that we were before.

I hope very much that your bf will begin to use the tools he is learning soon.

HG

m1k3

Panther,I agree with what you are saying but I don't believe I have read any posts that say "you must do it this way". People have offered their experience and opinions. I do not agree with everything that is posted here. I do not even agree with posts I made earlier in my recovery.

I believe what has been presented to the OP is. You do not seem happy in your current situation. You can't change your bf. So, what are you going to do about it?

Your friend,

Panther

Mike -

Thanks. I think you and I had our differences in the past, but just the fact that we have been able to come to some understanding and be civil is proof that it can be done. All of us have been through so much. Alcoholism is a terrible disease. Sometimes all the hurt and anger we feel about being through so much trauma can come out in ways that we do not intend.

I agree. I think taking care of the Self is vital to getting through anything. But not every situation calls for leaving. Maybe instead people could propose books to read, meditation, individual counseling, spirituality, etc. It may seem outrageous to some to stick through a situation that is horrible in many ways, but to others it is equally outrageous to leave behind someone who they may think of as their soul mate.

I often say to friends and family, that when you make a promise to someone be careful - because your heart will not let you forget it. My commitment to my loved one with alcoholism is a promise that I made. And no matter what happens, or how distant I grow from him, my heart will not let me forget. So in my own way, I am trying to fulfill my promise. That is my choice.

Panther

LaTeeDa

There is a lot of perception and assumption that goes on in these threads. For instance, if I say "what are you getting out of this relationship?" the perception or assumption is that I'm telling the person to leave. But, that is only their assumption. What I'm really saying is "take a good hard look at your situation and be honest with yourself about why you stay." When I did that, I realized that the reason I stayed was not "love" or a "soul-mate," but selfishness. I told myself and others that I wanted him to get sober for his own good, his health, his happiness, etc. But the real reason was that I wanted my dream and he was a character in that play. I wanted him sober so that I could have the life I wanted, with him in it.

I know now that I am responsible for making my life the way I want it. It's not someone else's responsibility to be the way I want them to be so that I can have life the way I want it.

I don't tell people they should leave the alcoholic. I tell people to either accept the alcoholic as they are, or leave them. Those are the only two real choices. We kid ourselves into thinking that changing them is the other option. It's not.

L

chicory

Quoted from "How Al-Anon Works for Families & Friends of Alcoholics"-Al-Anon Family Groups.

"Searching For Answers-
Although most of us come to Al-Anon impatient for answers to these and many other questions, there aren't always quick or simple solutions to such complicated matters. Reaching out for help in Al-Anon is unlike asking for help in most other places. In Al-Anon, we do not give advice. Nobody tells anyone else what to do about their own private situation. For example, we do not advocate nor oppose staying married or getting divorced, confronting the alcoholics in our lives or keeping quiet, allowing our children to live at home or asking them to move out, breaking contact with our families or continuing to develop our relationships. These and countless other difficult decisions are uniquely personal and can only be made by the individuals involved. In fact, we suggest that newcomers to Al-Anon make no major decisions for quite some time after coming to Al-Anon, because we find that our perspective on our circumstances undergoes a dramatic change during that time. By waiting, we often find options we had not considered previously and discover that, over time, we become better able to make decisions we can live with. Thus, it would be absurd for any of our members to advocate one course of action or another. We don't know what is best for another person.

Instead, we offer our own experience, strength, and hope.We talk about the problems we ourselves have encountered and how we have used the principles and practices of the Al-Anon program to help work through our problems. We share our feelings, our growth, and our pain. We listen and we learn, identifying with the stories others tell and discovering new ways to approach our particular circumstances by hearing how others have dealt with similar issues. We suggest that you take what you like and leave the rest. Some of what we say may be helpful; some may not. Each of us is free to pick and choose, to use whatever seems useful, and to disregard the rest. "

I have to agree that there are some here who seem to post some pretty sharp and judgmental "advice". It seems there is a "flock" , if you will, that flies together,posting in quick succession ,in the same negative tone. Giving each other a "thumbs-up " , by agreeing and sometimes even commenting on the "awesomeness " of the critique given. I call it the "Attack Pack"-lol. I avoid them usually. I am not so tough skinned. But I often wonder how many people are chased off by the harsh comments. Are they really necessary, or helpful? Is not more accomplished by being encouraging, and caring? If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing.

Shouldn't we all , if we recommend Al-Anon to others so often, be following one of the most basic and important tenets- of not telling others what they should do?

I did not let the negative posters drive me off. not for long anyway. there are too many wonderful, caring people here who have become very important to me, and I am thankful for SR for giving me hope and strength, by sharing their experiences.

chicory

m1k3

Panther, the "so what are you going to do about it" isn't a recommendation to stay or leave. It's more about the choice to do something, whatever it might be, belongs to you. If you are waiting for your A to change because of efforts you are putting into changing him you will wait forever.

As the saying goes nothing changes if nothing changes.

Your friend,

Panther

LaTeeDa -

You were very honest in your response. I've been there. I was with someone for 7 years, and tried to "change" him, help him, etc. It was only later that I realized that I had stayed with him for so long out of guilt and need. I said 'I love you' but it wasn't honest. This person by the way, was not addicted to alcohol.

It is up to each of us to really, honestly evaluate our relationships. And it's ok to ask questions. But if the person comes back and says they want to stay out of love - then I think we have to accept that at face value. It might be true, it might not be true. But as outsiders we really can't say either way.

As far as choices go. I think there is a third choice. We cannot change the alcoholic, but we can help them to battle this disease. We can do research, do an intervention, get them into rehab, get them to a specialist. We are not changing them, but we are doing what we can to assure they get proper medical treatment.

Of course the old debate will come back "but they don't want to get medical help", "they don't want to go to rehab". I compare this issue to the one facing family members who have a loved one who is mentally ill. A person with schizophrenia doesn't think he has an issue - most of the time. Most will refuse to see a doctor, or take meds. But that doesn't mean the family should let it be and watch the person spiral out of control. It is possible to use leverage to convince someone to seek medical help. And interventions when done right, can be very effective.

Panther

Panther

I am not waiting for my loved one to change. I am trying to get him the resources to get better. We have not spoken in 6 months, but I am still committed.

This doesn't meant I don't have a life. I work, I have my career I'm trying to start, I date, go out with friends etc. My life is not all planning for him. But I see what you're saying about doing the same thing and getting the same result. I agree.

Panther

LaTeeDa

Yes, that is a choice. And many people choose to put themselves aside and put all their efforts into getting a loved one sober, sometimes at great financial and personal cost, only to find that the best specialists and rehabs can still only help a small percentage of addicts. Mostly those who have the motivation to receive help.

After devoting 20 years to a relationship with an alcoholic, and trying everything within my means to get him sober, I was all used up. Finally, at an age closer to 50 than 40, I decided to put all that effort, determination and passion into my own life. The rewards have been great. The regrets minimal. Mostly because I know that every single human on this planet has the capability to do the same, addicted or not. And I leave it to them to decide. I no longer try to play God in other peoples lives. That job is already taken.

L

Panther

My belief teaches me that we are all the hands of God. God is not a magical fairy man in the sky - he speaks to all of us and guides us to do his will. It is up to us if we want to listen or not. He doesn't make us.

And that comment you made about rehabs - do you know that most people with cancer end up dying from it? I am starting to lose track of the number of people that I have heard about that have died from cancer. Does this mean that when someone is diagnosed with cancer, their family should say "Why take them to the hospital to get treated? The hospitals only help a small percentage of cancer patients". Of course not. Every life that is saved from addiction is valuable. Even if that life can be extended or in some way their pain can be diminished through treatment, it is worth it.

Panther

Eight Ball

As it was my original thread that was mentioned here, I thought that I better add my two cents worth.

I know for me it has been quite a journey in my own recovery and I have a completely different mindset to when I first found SR. My circumstances are very different too.

I did find it quite confronting in the early days when I was still trying to live with my AH active drinking, to be told to simply leave and sometimes rather bluntly. My therapist would tell me to leave all the time but I just wasnt ready to hear it. I eventually found another therapist who took things slower and planted a few things for me to think about in my head and heart. It took me 18 months of therapy, SR and Al-anon to be able to decide for myself that leaving would be in my best interest. My therapist (first) or someone on SR being blunt about my circumstances didnt help me at that time.

At Al-anon meetings we shared our own ES&H and very rarely offer advice. Occasionally on SR 'advice' is offered (although likely based on someones ES&H). I personally liked the mixture of the two.

I honestly believe that ES&H are the key to SR's success. These days on SR, I try to remember where I have come from, how little I knew about alcoholism or the jargon at the very begining and also only reply to threads whereby I have personal experience and can offer my ES&H for the benefit of others.

Part of my own recovery is wanting to be a better person and to think positively and kindly about other people and I have often retreated from posting, knowing that to do so, would go against that. I also personally stay away from replying to users who trigger my negativity.

I think that there will always be posters who get upset with responses on this forum but I think that we all do rather well considering the circumstances that bring us here and the good definitely outweighs the bad. Although I dont post very often these days, I am on the site almost everyday to take what I like and leave the rest, to see whos new and to remind myself where I have come from and where I am heading.

I do not live with my AH of 23yrs. However hard I tried to detach that just didnt work for me, so I left 5 months ago. My AH is in serious recovery and is 3 months sober. My life does not revolve around my AH anymore, I am learning to take care of me. I do have peace and serenity in my life these days and want it to stay that way.

CXR

I haven't read through the entire thread, but I'll offer you this...take what you like and leave the rest. Your so called solutions may not be what others have found, but you'll find a lot of wisdom. You'll figure it out. The people I've met in al-anon over the many years I've gone are some of the finest and healthiest people I've ever met. I wish you all the best.

LaTeeDa

And that is just as true of addicts as it is for those of us who love them.

Did you know that all people die eventually? Cancer patients, codependents, addicts, and healthy people. All of them. If a cancer patient refuses treatment, that is their choice. If I decide not to live my life to the fullest because I am too caught up in "getting help" for someone else, that is my choice. I made that choice for far too long, and knowing that my days are limited in number was a big deciding factor for me in putting more effort into my own life than someone else's. That's my choice now. Call me selfish or uncaring or whatever you want, there is only one life that I ultimately have responsibility for, and that is my own.

L

wellnowwhat

I came across this thread The Alcoholism and Addictions Help Forums- by SoberRecovery.com (Trying to Live Happily with Alcoholic) and there were a few posts that "spoke to me" about judgemental posts, etc., in here.

If the folks at al-anon are anything like some of the people in here, then I don't want to go, ever.

I've gone back to reread my posts (the recent ones anyway) to assess them for being judgmental, or whether I was offering ES&H, or just venting, or whatever. I can certainly tell from my posts whether it was a good day or not by the tone that I hear, and for some I am frankly ashamed of their preachyness (sp?). I know better, but did not do better.

I have to admit that I am sometimes reluctant to venture my ES&H when I find it is at odds with some of the more blunt posters. I know that I have to focus on what they have actually said, and what I (in my head) add to their post. Did they really say that? or did I say that they said that? and to recall that their experience may differ quite a bit from mine.

I am with my active AH of 30 years. We've had little drama, no abuse, fairly peaceful life with the exception of a crisis situation about 4 years ago which required hospitalization for a couple of weeks. I attend Alanon, have found peace (of a sort - I'm here after all) and am fairly happy. But, I do have moments that test my serenity, and yes, I do know it is progressive. I've never really tried to get my AH to quit. We had already been together about 12 years at that point and I knew him well enough that he would make solo attempts, but never seek out recovery with a doctor, therapist or a group. We've had the odd discussion, but when I discovered that he truly was an alcoholic it really spurred me to focus on myself. I figured that I may have to divorce him some day, or support the family if he became jobless, and I should get ready for that.

I know that is some weird way I've been lucky that my life with my AH has been so uneventful. I have to remind myself that there are others here that have had a very much worse time of it and to be sensitive that my ES&H is not theirs.

Re Alanon: it has helped tremendously. At our meetings, like Mike's, we share if we choose to and there is no crosstalk, meaning that no one comments on anyone's sharing or offers advice so it is not at all judgmental. If I seek advice, I speak to members one-on-one. In my group there are a couple with our AHs, there are ACoAs, there are parents of As, there are widows and exes of As and a couple who identify themselves as double winners, meaning they attend AA and Alanon. I think I was probably more judgmental as a person before attending and have lost, thankfully, that quirk over time. I've met some really great people with a lot of wisdom and a lot of serenity and that is such a great addition to my life!

I am glad you started this thread. There have been a lot of thoughtful responses and it has got us to think a little bit about our role here on SR. Thank you!

Panther

LaTeeDa -

Once you're done convincing me, convince yourself.

I have no qualms with the choices you have made. But it seems you have made it a special point to refute mine and the logic behind it. I have often wondered at your motivation. I'm psychologically oriented and the only conclusion I can come to is that you're not quite as resolute in your decision as you appear to be - so you interpret my rationality as a threat.

I'm not calling you anything - selfish, uncaring, etc. For all I know God guided you in the direction you went in. Who am I to judge? But I think it is disingenuous for you to claim that a sick person does not need help ever, because God has already taken care of it. Even Jesus, who was God incarnate, needed help carrying his cross. If Jesus needed the help of others (and he was God) surely we are no better off.

Panther

Jazzman

I'll tell you why this jumped out at me, here's a story about my experience, take it for what it is, a story about my experience.

Shortly after Mel passed away I was talking to a neighbor of mine who is a nurse. When I said it was liver failure she looked at me and said without a hint of emotion, "We see so many like that at the hospital way too often".

At first I was struck by the lack of emotion but I knew that she was speaking from her own experience. A brutal harsh reality from some one in the medical profession that routinely sees so many people who suffer from addictions do so in light of the fact that there IS help for them if they reach out and embrace it.

Addiction has it's own built in self defense mechanism and I know this from first hand experience. If I had not ever experienced addiction on my own I would have been truly perplexed by Mels inability to tackle hers head on. She knew she was killing herself and did reach out for help several times. In the end it was a battle she could not win.

Why do some survive and some don't? Why do some loved ones stay and some don't? Beats me. We all have our own path.