Am I being Naive?
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Originally Posted by akrasia 
Twenty-three is young enough that she should expect a little gentle advice/input from mom in these matters, especially if it's her first serious relationship. No, you can't make the decision for her, certainly--but it is your job to offer her your perspective based on your experience and wisdom. Even if she ignores it.
A guy with two kids who's only eight months sober has no business proposing to anyone. He needs to be building up his relationship with his kids after the damage that's been done. If the kids live with him, it's downright cruel for him to bring in a brand-new mommy after all the turmoil he's put them through.
And in any case, dating for "a few months" is way too soon for a proposal or even talk of "forever," especially at 23.
Let me guess: he's like 30. And his finances are a shambles.
You could just calmly tell her that he needs to build up some security in his life before he goes proposing to people. Don't harp on it, just say that's your view on it, "for the record." And then encourage your daughter to get on with her own dreams and ambitions, whatever those may be. You might segue into, "Oh, look at this, I found a great study-abroad programme!" lol
A guy with two kids who's only eight months sober has no business proposing to anyone. He needs to be building up his relationship with his kids after the damage that's been done. If the kids live with him, it's downright cruel for him to bring in a brand-new mommy after all the turmoil he's put them through.
And in any case, dating for "a few months" is way too soon for a proposal or even talk of "forever," especially at 23.
Let me guess: he's like 30. And his finances are a shambles.
You could just calmly tell her that he needs to build up some security in his life before he goes proposing to people. Don't harp on it, just say that's your view on it, "for the record." And then encourage your daughter to get on with her own dreams and ambitions, whatever those may be. You might segue into, "Oh, look at this, I found a great study-abroad programme!" lol
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(((January))) - my niece is 18, has been raised by my codie-to-the-core stepmom and dad (who's also turned codie) since she was 1 and her mom died in a car wreck (dad is in prison, again, has been in/out her entire life).
She has no concept of paying bills or anything else..extremely immature, but sure knows how to party when she wants to.
She told me of her and bf's plans to get an apt....AFTER they both get jobs (neither has one), and save up money (she blows every cent she gets). Her other grandparents are supposed to give her a car when she gets her driver's license.
I explained to her that having a car is one thing, being able to afford insurance, which will be really high at her age, car repairs, gas, etc. on top of rent, water, electricity is not as easy as she thinks. Not to mention bf also has a child he pays support for WHEN he's working. I'M living at home because of the financial mess I got myself into with my own addiction, more than 4-1/2 years into recovery.
I have no kids, she's the closest I have to a daughter. I've talked to her, I've given her advice, but I've also realized she's going to have to learn her lessons the hard way. She thinks they are going to miraculously learn how to work a budget, that she won't be able to party whenever she wants to, and it will be wonderful.
She thought the same thing of her LAST bf, who she was with since 15.
Do I want to save her from making a mistake? Absolutely. Is it in my power? Nope. I didn't listen to my parents when they tried to keep me from making decisions that may not turn out so well (like staying with a functioning alcoholic for 20+ years).
I've done, basically, what you've done...asked her if she REALLY understands all that is involved in her plans and she swears she does. I know she doesn't but I also know that learning things is part of growing up, and sometimes the lessons are hard.
Hugs and prayers,
Amy
She has no concept of paying bills or anything else..extremely immature, but sure knows how to party when she wants to.
She told me of her and bf's plans to get an apt....AFTER they both get jobs (neither has one), and save up money (she blows every cent she gets). Her other grandparents are supposed to give her a car when she gets her driver's license.
I explained to her that having a car is one thing, being able to afford insurance, which will be really high at her age, car repairs, gas, etc. on top of rent, water, electricity is not as easy as she thinks. Not to mention bf also has a child he pays support for WHEN he's working. I'M living at home because of the financial mess I got myself into with my own addiction, more than 4-1/2 years into recovery.
I have no kids, she's the closest I have to a daughter. I've talked to her, I've given her advice, but I've also realized she's going to have to learn her lessons the hard way. She thinks they are going to miraculously learn how to work a budget, that she won't be able to party whenever she wants to, and it will be wonderful.
She thought the same thing of her LAST bf, who she was with since 15.
Do I want to save her from making a mistake? Absolutely. Is it in my power? Nope. I didn't listen to my parents when they tried to keep me from making decisions that may not turn out so well (like staying with a functioning alcoholic for 20+ years).
I've done, basically, what you've done...asked her if she REALLY understands all that is involved in her plans and she swears she does. I know she doesn't but I also know that learning things is part of growing up, and sometimes the lessons are hard.
Hugs and prayers,
Amy
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Impurrfect. I just replied to your other response to the other questions I posted. I just wanted to say that your example of your niece is a very good one. I know you are right, I'd be saying all the same things, and I guess I just wanted to say that I appreciate you sharing your story. I hope your niece finds her way and finds a healthier life choice. It does seem as if we have to just let them fall, and hope they find a way to pick themselves back up again.
Can you answer one more question for me? What exactly is Alnon? Is that the same as AA? (I think i should know this answer, but I know so little on this subject that I really don't know what it is.) Thank you.
Can you answer one more question for me? What exactly is Alnon? Is that the same as AA? (I think i should know this answer, but I know so little on this subject that I really don't know what it is.) Thank you.
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(((January))) - al-anon is for those who love A's. AA or NA is for those who ARE A's. I've never actually been to an al-anon meeting, but from what I've heard, a good one is kinda like this, it's just better because it's f2f and that helps a lot.
You're new to all this, don't worry about what you SHOULD know and don't...took me a long time to absorb things that made sense, but I just wasn't ready to move ahead in codie-recovery yet.
Hugs and prayers,
Amy
You're new to all this, don't worry about what you SHOULD know and don't...took me a long time to absorb things that made sense, but I just wasn't ready to move ahead in codie-recovery yet.
Hugs and prayers,
Amy
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His answers about his recovery sound encouraging.
Her answers about his recovery & addiction sound encouraging.
She IS 23 years old and this is truly her decision.
If it was me, I would have a conversation, once, that this is her decision and I am hopeful for her/their future. That I still have reservations, that I hope I am wrong, but I'm a mom and will always worry and that I am always there for her. Suggest a long engagement. I'd hand her a copy of Codependent No More. I'd tell her that she knows the lingo and she's witnessing his recovery. The book may help her identify flags if she becomes enabling, that it kind of sneaks up on you, and that it is especially important for her to keep a strong sense of self in case of a relapse. I'd tell her that the uninitiated don't really understand codependency, but she will.
Then I'd let it go. No more grilling about his recovery, about her reactions, about whether she read the book, no more advice (unless asked, then very cautiously), notta.
You didn't cause her choice in mates, you can't control her decision and you can't cure her hopefulness.
And further, I would try very hard to celebrate with her the events that she wants to celebrate - her engagement, upcoming wedding, etc. (Not easy, I know.)
I've children who occasionally make, in my opinion, poor choices. When I try to manage things, it tests our relationship, it usually doesn't help and when it goes sour they don't want to come to me. When I've been able to let it go, our relationship stays solid, they develop more confidence, and often come to see things the way I had hoped (not always), and it leaves me open to be a source of comfort for them if it doesn't go how they anticipated.
At that age I had my own ideas and would probably not react well to too much imput to such a very personal decision. My kids, I guess, didn't fall far from this tree!
Sending kind thoughts your way.
Her answers about his recovery & addiction sound encouraging.
She IS 23 years old and this is truly her decision.
If it was me, I would have a conversation, once, that this is her decision and I am hopeful for her/their future. That I still have reservations, that I hope I am wrong, but I'm a mom and will always worry and that I am always there for her. Suggest a long engagement. I'd hand her a copy of Codependent No More. I'd tell her that she knows the lingo and she's witnessing his recovery. The book may help her identify flags if she becomes enabling, that it kind of sneaks up on you, and that it is especially important for her to keep a strong sense of self in case of a relapse. I'd tell her that the uninitiated don't really understand codependency, but she will.
Then I'd let it go. No more grilling about his recovery, about her reactions, about whether she read the book, no more advice (unless asked, then very cautiously), notta.
You didn't cause her choice in mates, you can't control her decision and you can't cure her hopefulness.
And further, I would try very hard to celebrate with her the events that she wants to celebrate - her engagement, upcoming wedding, etc. (Not easy, I know.)
I've children who occasionally make, in my opinion, poor choices. When I try to manage things, it tests our relationship, it usually doesn't help and when it goes sour they don't want to come to me. When I've been able to let it go, our relationship stays solid, they develop more confidence, and often come to see things the way I had hoped (not always), and it leaves me open to be a source of comfort for them if it doesn't go how they anticipated.
At that age I had my own ideas and would probably not react well to too much imput to such a very personal decision. My kids, I guess, didn't fall far from this tree!
Sending kind thoughts your way.
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Advise your daughter that if her jurisdiction allows it, to consider a pre-nuptual agreement stipulating clear concessions if he ever drinks or uses again. His willingness to agree to it, or lack thereof, will tell her all she needs to know. If he can't trust himself, why should anyone else? Do not believe the "I have no desire to drink" ruse, because it means nothing, and suggests that he may drink again if he ever did have the desire.
-- From a PhD (Phormer Drunk)
-- From a PhD (Phormer Drunk)
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Impurrfect. thanks for the Alnon description. Sounds like a wonderful support system for family and friends. Maybe she would consider that one day, if she felt she was in over her head.
Wellnowwhat. For the most part, I seem to parent very similar to how you see fit to do it. That is the frustrating part! I have only had talks with her when she has come to me and I do encourage her to just learn the facts and keep her eyes and heart open. She knows we will always be there if she needs us, but trust me when I say that I have not tried to make the decision for her. I am mostly, probably naively, seeking solace for myself through these boards. I guess I'm looking for encouragement and a sense of people telling me that many recovering addicts do just fine. She is happy, and that is what is important. I also would revolt against my mother if she had tried to force my decisions for me, and I believe that is human nature. All that being said, thank you so much for your answer because there is a couple of things in there that encouraged me to stay on course and I like the idea of the book, so I will gently suggest that. I really do appreciate anyone's help. I'm glad to know that others agree with knowing my worry, yet agree that ultimately all I can do is try to support her in all ways.
Wellnowwhat. For the most part, I seem to parent very similar to how you see fit to do it. That is the frustrating part! I have only had talks with her when she has come to me and I do encourage her to just learn the facts and keep her eyes and heart open. She knows we will always be there if she needs us, but trust me when I say that I have not tried to make the decision for her. I am mostly, probably naively, seeking solace for myself through these boards. I guess I'm looking for encouragement and a sense of people telling me that many recovering addicts do just fine. She is happy, and that is what is important. I also would revolt against my mother if she had tried to force my decisions for me, and I believe that is human nature. All that being said, thank you so much for your answer because there is a couple of things in there that encouraged me to stay on course and I like the idea of the book, so I will gently suggest that. I really do appreciate anyone's help. I'm glad to know that others agree with knowing my worry, yet agree that ultimately all I can do is try to support her in all ways.
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Parenting is tough! I agree.
I am glad you understand that I was trying to be helpful. When I read a post, as stated in another thread, I sometimes colour what I am reading with my own emotions and history and add (in my head) things into it that aren't there, especially if it hits close to home.
Your post struck a nerve with me. I've been stewing lately with one of my kid's choices and have recognized that I've probably been more "helpful" lately than is wise. My post was for me as well, to remember to step back and let go.
This board is a great place for solace and encouragement, and to see ourselves in other's stories.
Your daughter will do fine. She's got a great mom!
I am glad you understand that I was trying to be helpful. When I read a post, as stated in another thread, I sometimes colour what I am reading with my own emotions and history and add (in my head) things into it that aren't there, especially if it hits close to home.
Your post struck a nerve with me. I've been stewing lately with one of my kid's choices and have recognized that I've probably been more "helpful" lately than is wise. My post was for me as well, to remember to step back and let go.
This board is a great place for solace and encouragement, and to see ourselves in other's stories.
Your daughter will do fine. She's got a great mom!
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Originally Posted by Terminally Unique
Advise your daughter that if her jurisdiction allows it, to consider a pre-nuptual agreement stipulating clear concessions if he ever drinks or uses again. His willingness to agree to it, or lack thereof, will tell her all she needs to know. If he can't trust himself, why should anyone else? Do not believe the "I have no desire to drink" ruse, because it means nothing, and suggests that he may drink again if he ever did have the desire.
-- From a PhD (Phormer Drunk)
-- From a PhD (Phormer Drunk)
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Originally Posted by January28
I think that is a great suggestion! I also just can't believe the "I have no desire to drink" thing. I think he WANTS to believe that, but it has to be in him or he wouldn't go to 3 & 4 meetings a week. Which, I'm glad he's doing, but obviously if he had NO DESIRE, then what would he need the support of AA for?
I'm sober 21+ years. I am NOT cured.
I am also diabetic. I continue to do the things I need to do in order to keep my diabetes in check.
The same applies to my alcoholism.
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Originally Posted by wellnowwhat
Parenting is tough! I agree.
I am glad you understand that I was trying to be helpful. When I read a post, as stated in another thread, I sometimes colour what I am reading with my own emotions and history and add (in my head) things into it that aren't there, especially if it hits close to home.
Your post struck a nerve with me. I've been stewing lately with one of my kid's choices and have recognized that I've probably been more "helpful" lately than is wise. My post was for me as well, to remember to step back and let go.
This board is a great place for solace and encouragement, and to see ourselves in other's stories.
Your daughter will do fine. She's got a great mom!
I am glad you understand that I was trying to be helpful. When I read a post, as stated in another thread, I sometimes colour what I am reading with my own emotions and history and add (in my head) things into it that aren't there, especially if it hits close to home.
Your post struck a nerve with me. I've been stewing lately with one of my kid's choices and have recognized that I've probably been more "helpful" lately than is wise. My post was for me as well, to remember to step back and let go.
This board is a great place for solace and encouragement, and to see ourselves in other's stories.
Your daughter will do fine. She's got a great mom!
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Originally Posted by Freedom1990
Did it ever occur to you that the 3-4 meetings a week, and the support of AA is what has helped him have no desire to drink?
The deer in the headlights look I usually get from that question practically proves that this is precisely what they mean. If this were my own daughter's boyfriend, I would tell this man "I do not care if you have a desire to drink or not. I only have one question for you. Are you going to drink or use again in this lifetime, or are you not, in spite of any desire?"
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Your casual dismissal of the suggestion to go to Alanon, along with your idea that if a recovering alcoholic has no desire to drink they don't need AA is very, very concerning. I say with all due respect that both of those things are very dangerous for somebody seeking to cope with what is going on with their daughter and her RAB.
That, along with the fact that you are here because of your 23 year old adult daughter and her decisions around her boyfriend who is very early in recovery is also very concerning. He may in fact have no desire to drink. I know many alcoholics who have said this and stayed sober for what appears to be indefinitely. I've also known many alcoholics who have said this and relapsed the next day. He is very early in his recovery-- his future is unknown and uncertain! It's only after years of sobriety that you can start to get comortable and even then it truly is one day at a time!
She's your daughter. I get that. I have one too and she is also attracted to wounded dogs and addicts she tries to support and fix (that whole Hallmark power of love crock of **** we all love to believe so much).
So, having said that it is my personal opinion that it is critical for you to start attending Alanon right now (even if it is inconvenient). Invite your daughter, but regardless of her response try at least six meetings and keep an open mind before deciding if it is for you. If after six meetings you don't like it, fine. But not going at all? Well what will that say about your actual intent to learn more about this issue and yourself, and most appropriately support your daughter?
Take what you want and leave the rest.
Cyranoak
That, along with the fact that you are here because of your 23 year old adult daughter and her decisions around her boyfriend who is very early in recovery is also very concerning. He may in fact have no desire to drink. I know many alcoholics who have said this and stayed sober for what appears to be indefinitely. I've also known many alcoholics who have said this and relapsed the next day. He is very early in his recovery-- his future is unknown and uncertain! It's only after years of sobriety that you can start to get comortable and even then it truly is one day at a time!
She's your daughter. I get that. I have one too and she is also attracted to wounded dogs and addicts she tries to support and fix (that whole Hallmark power of love crock of **** we all love to believe so much).
So, having said that it is my personal opinion that it is critical for you to start attending Alanon right now (even if it is inconvenient). Invite your daughter, but regardless of her response try at least six meetings and keep an open mind before deciding if it is for you. If after six meetings you don't like it, fine. But not going at all? Well what will that say about your actual intent to learn more about this issue and yourself, and most appropriately support your daughter?
Take what you want and leave the rest.
Cyranoak
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I am too the mother of 3 sons,and have had all the same doubts and concerns that you have with your daughter, and I had to give myself a good talking to! that my children ,now young men,who have chosen who they want in their lives at this time,and that if things do go wrong in the future they know I will always leave my door open(or hope they do),I had a mother who if I made a mistake on that front, always made me feel inadequate that I was stupid,she knew it wouldnt work and why didnt I listen to her! ,I decided that I would not do that to my sons if things went wrong,but know they have to live and make their own mistakes in this life,how would they learn about life and how to deal with life on life's terms. So I dont interfere and also I dont participate in their spats,I dont take sides-I just keep to my side ,come home,get out of the way, make a cuppa, tea have a think,then let it go !
The only way I would interfere is I knew there was violence,either from my sons or their wives or partners,Its a balancing act,when I would react or stay in active.
I go to Al-anon and learn to I hope,stay balanced,been quite a challenge for me this last few years,I am a work in progress as they say.
Also as an after thought,could I thank,Teriminally Unique for that post and Freedom 1990- wondered why when someone said that to me 'I just dont have the desire for it anymore' I had a frown on my face,which now is a big smile,you just gave me the answer !Ahmmmmmmmmmmm.
Take what you like and leave the rest-Thank you
The only way I would interfere is I knew there was violence,either from my sons or their wives or partners,Its a balancing act,when I would react or stay in active.
I go to Al-anon and learn to I hope,stay balanced,been quite a challenge for me this last few years,I am a work in progress as they say.
Also as an after thought,could I thank,Teriminally Unique for that post and Freedom 1990- wondered why when someone said that to me 'I just dont have the desire for it anymore' I had a frown on my face,which now is a big smile,you just gave me the answer !Ahmmmmmmmmmmm.
Take what you like and leave the rest-Thank you
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Originally Posted by jOSE2
Also as an after thought,could I thank,Teriminally Unique for that post and Freedom 1990- wondered why when someone said that to me 'I just dont have the desire for it anymore' I had a frown on my face,which now is a big smile,you just gave me the answer !Ahmmmmmmmmmmm.
It is just rudimentary AVRT in action, which is a self-aiming weapon that identifies certain thought patterns as the voice of addiction itself. It kind of runs in the background on its own, like an anti-virus program that automatically detects addict BS.
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I have not read all the posts, but coming from someone living with an AH, who has been on and off "sober" many times, I wish you could tell your daughter to run, run away now! But I understand it's not that simple, and I'm sure the more you push, the faster she will run straight into his arms. I believe it IS possible for people to be recovered substance abusers. However, I have not known any that didn't relapse, once, twice, or a hundred times. Maybe your daughters boyfriend will be one of the lucky ones, I hope so for her sake. My only advice would be that she take the relationship SLOW and not have children with this man anytime soon. 8 months isn't that long to really know what you're dealing with in the long run. My AH was fine for several years, then BAM, relapse again, and again. I met him when I was 21 (he is the same age) and now we're 34, married, with 3 kids under 5. To say our life is a rollercoaster is an understatement. We're working on things at the moment, but I know someday, unless a miracle happens, I will have to take the kids and leave. I love my AH and want to be with him forever, but in another life, I would definitely not marry someone with a drinking problem again. I hope and pray my daughters don't. Sorry I do not have a more positive answer for you. I truly hope your daughter has better luck than I did! Good luck to them. Sounds like they both have a good head on their shoulders.
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I apologize ahead of time, I haven't read through the thread. But you had some questions and I like to answer questions, so I figured I go ahead and post them. I hope something I say is helpful to you and your daughter.
IMO (in my opinion), no. Recovery from alcoholism and/or drug addiction is a life-long endeavor. We cannot predict the future, nor how anyone is going to handle what life throws our way. I have been recovering from alcoholism since 1998. I have relapsed many times. I am glad no one really took me seriously enough, long enough, to count on me to be predictable.
IMO, no. If it were me, I would find a guy who is not a recovering alcoholic. There are many fish in the sea. There are some really good guys out there who do not have this disease.
I would venture to say that it IS possible to predict whether or not he is going to stay clean. Eight months is not a very long time. Recovery is difficult. I encourage you to try Al-Anon. How to find a meeting in the US/Canada/Puerto Rico
Is 8 months long enough to know if someone has a really good shot at living a clean lifestyle?
Is it possible for my daughter to be happy with a recovering alcoholic?
I know these questions are subjective, and I know that no one can possibly predict whether this guy will stay clean. I just don't know if I'm being naive in believing that he deserves a 2nd chance and maybe I'm naive into believing this is an easy disease to control. My daughter has never been happier but I'm finding it hard to be happy for her because this huge black cloud is always over me, fearing the day he takes another drink. Any encouragement? Or do I attempt to steer her clear of him, which I know is a slippery slope. I feel like I may lose her either way.
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Originally Posted by Freedom1990
Did it ever occur to you that the 3-4 meetings a week, and the support of AA is what has helped him have no desire to drink?
I'm sober 21+ years. I am NOT cured.
I am also diabetic. I continue to do the things I need to do in order to keep my diabetes in check.
The same applies to my alcoholism.
I'm sober 21+ years. I am NOT cured.
I am also diabetic. I continue to do the things I need to do in order to keep my diabetes in check.
The same applies to my alcoholism.
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