LaTeeDa

I had spent years in my superiority and self-righteousness by the time my therapist told me that alcoholism and codependence are simply two different branches of the same tree.

And when I finally got the courage to admit that my holier-than-thou attitude toward my AH was really nothing more than my insecurity and low self-worth, I could then have some understanding and compassion toward him.

Mind you, that didn't mean I stayed in his line of fire and allowed him to keep wrecking my life, but I stopped judging him and went about working on my own issues.

L

seek

With all due respect, we will just have to "agree to disagree." I have spent a lot of time in Alanon and Coda, have alcoholic relatives and am no dummy. I did not post what I posted out of ignorance but after observing and living and noticing . . .I personally do not buy into the "disease" model and there are lots of others who think that that is merely a crutch - I think there is a movement called "Smart Recovery" and others that also think the disease model is bunk.

On the other hand, I personally do believe alcoholism is a spiritual disease - so my beliefs are not secular, but spiritual.

Everything we do consists of choice after choice.

When you continue to drink, knowing what it is doing to yourself and others, that is a choice. To say it is not a choice is illogical because when you "hit bottom" then you stop (or not) . . .

I am assuming the anger is coming from wanting to keep the guilt and shame at bay.

Oh, by-the-way, I have never received a phone call or letter from an alcoholic who was making amends - and there are people in my life who are loonnnnng time members of AA are are active in the program. Not one call or letter, which I thought was step whatever ("make amends to those you have harmed") . . .

For me, personally, to not admit that alcoholism is a choice infantilizes it - and nothing changes in terms of the "character defects" that caused it . . .

I personally have made some very dumb choices and could have continued down certain paths but CHOSE not to . . .

I also am the type of person who does things that are not easy, but I don't think the typical alcoholic challenges themselves in that way. I know this sounds really preachy and self-righteous and I would not even be writing on this thread at all if I were not having issues with an alcoholic who is currently wreaking havoc on herself and the entire family, so my statements do have that baggage attached to them.

Congratulations to any of the alcoholics reading this who have chosen sobriety.

laurie6781

There you go ASSUMING AGAIN

I do not have any guilt or shame today. One of the promises is:


We will no longer regret the past nor wish to shut the door on it."

I have made ALL my amends.

FYI once an alcoholic or addict crosses that line, they HAVE NO CHOICE to just NOT drink unless something gets through to them.

Whether you believe it is a disease or not, unless you have experiences the HE!! of being in addiction, you really have no clue what is like.

Again to ASSUME they just don't stop when they know, is not rational. That is an attitude from the '30's.

The problem with that is the alcoholic, even though they may have been told DO NOT compute the fact they are hurting others. Why? Because they keep them NUMB and live in alternate reality.

Yes we will agree to disagree! You just have no clue at all what it is like to live in a body that is ravaged by alcohol and drugs.

Chino

When we're active in our addictions, whether substance or people, those choices are made by a hijacked brain.

I didn't choose to let my brain get hijacked by my daughter and her addiction. It happened because I have an addictive personality like every codie. I was spinning my wheels until I accepted that I was really no different than any other addict. I was able to comprehend and accept that because my brain wasn't mush.

Terminally Unique

SMART Recovery, while it does not subscribe to the biological or spiritual disease models of addiction, nevertheless subscribes to the psychological disease theory, viewing addiction as an irrational belief, a way of coping with personal issues. Rational Recovery, on the other hand, completely rejects all disease models of addiction, whether spiritual, biological, or psychological. To be honest, your posts do not particularly disturb me.

That said, addiction is a prison without locks, since you literally cannot see the exit from within, at least most of the time. When addicted, your mind is poisoned, your perceptions warped, and your body views the alcohol or drugs as necessary for survival itself, the same as food, water, and oxygen. I've posted this in another thread before, but if you want to somewhat imagine the terror that the addicted person feels when thinking of quitting, try saying this to yourself:
If you don't feel your body recoiling from the threat of starvation (death!) right away, you certainly will come dinner time.

seek

On the issue of my obsessive thinking/worrying (which someone brought up upstream) - that problem is caused by my not being in touch with my spirituality - I have a definite pattern of being out-of-touch with it - I take responsibility for that. I think I can change that and it happens in every moment when I choose to change it - moment by moment . . .it is not easy and it doesn't stay "fixed" - that is very similar to the alcoholic process - a big difference is that I am only really hurting myself - I am not putting other people in danger, my daily choices are not causing problems in other people's lives - it's just my internal Hell . . .

As for those who say you can't understand addiction if you have not had addiction, that is a big assumption, regarding other people's addictions . . .you don't know what addictions I have had or haven't had . . .

Anyway, there are definitely two schools of thought on this . . .I entered this thread because I had never understood the deep aversion my AD has to what I would view as "appropriate" guilt . . . she has always had extreme reactions to her issue around "guilt" - I have never understood it and now have a much better understanding, thanks to this thread.

I will go back to my obsessive thinking/worrying now!

Mightyqueen801

Interesting. I'm torn when it comes to the "disease" bit. Often it seems overused as a an excuse by recovering alcoholics--witness the all-too-common business of making those "amends"--"Gee, I'm sorry IF I did anything to harm you when I was drinking--of course, I don't really remember, because, giggle giggle snort snort I have this lil' ol' disease so it's not really my fault..." That's pretty much the extent of amends I've received, but I do believe I've met some long-term RAs who take the business of living seriously and they may truly have made amends that I wouldn't know about.

I believe something genetic is going on in a lot of cases, but I don't believe that all these people are just programmed from birth to become alcoholics. Alcohol is an outside source--what would these people be if there was never such a thing as alcohol? On the other hand, ADDICTION is truly a physical problem, no question there, and by the time someone needs or is forced to get help, they are physically addicted to the alcohol or other substance.

The tendency to use substances to deal with one's emotions is not restricted to alcoholics/addicts, obviously, since lots of people, including myself, did that for years but didn't become addicted. Therefore, a tendency toward actual addiction may be genetic. Look at Mick Jagger--in his autobiography, John Phillips said that Jagger's never been addicted to anything, but he sure used a lot of substances and kept going while so many of his peers are now pushing up daisies. Including Phillips.

Some things, like heroin, are probably going to be more addictive to everyone because of their properties and effects on the human body.

Anyway, in some cases it's obvious that it's a psychological issue. My long-time friend, now pretty much brain-damaged from drinking, seems to have gained some sort of negative attention from her alcoholism, like a child with behavioral problems. She had been the youngest child of a large family, born late to her parents, was very petite, and I think she began to drink when the cute-little-girl thing wasn't working anymore as she became an adult. She would try to act daffy and air-headed in her forties, and it was just repulsive rather than cute at that age. She just never learned how to behave and interact as an adult. After a 7-year sobriety, she'd begun to drink again but stopped when she was diagnosed with cancer. She stayed sober through eight months of chemo, during which of course she got plenty of attention, but once the treatment was done she picked up her bottle of vodka and proceeded to work toward doing what the cancer hadn't done. It was bizarre, and to everyone who watched this, it seemed as if she was actually drinking for attention on some level. This perception includes the AA people who were at the meetings where she showed up drunk all the time. Of course, the physical addiction was definitely there once she got back on the bottle, because not drinking would bring on severe seizures.

I don't have the answers, or I'd be rich, and the original problem does seem emotional or spiritual, but the addiction is very physical. "Disease" may just be the closest term there is, and it does get insurance to pay for treatment.

Chino

Alcohol is an outside source--what would these people be if there was never such a thing as alcohol?

You'll have to go back several thousand years to find the answer. Maybe some people used opium, coca leaves, marijuana. Or just trudged through life, not having access to these natural substances.

Mightyqueen801

Well, the Egyptians did come up with beer a couple thousand years ago! And I imagine the use of mood-altering substances goes back to prehistoric days.

But really, the point is that if alcohol (or other substances) are not available AT ALL--how do the would-be alcoholics function/behave? Think of Saudi Arabia, for example, where alcohol is completely outlawed, even for foreigners.

Chino

I think they probably function and behave pretty much the same way all sober people do, including recovered A's, which varies from person to person

Mightyqueen801

LOL, of course they do! Perhaps "function" and "behave" were the wrong word choices.

Laughing at myself here...

Was just trying to get to the point of "if alcoholics have this disease from the get-go and are doomed to become alcoholics from conception, as is often claimed, what are they if they can't have alcohol???" Are they still self-centered people who have no feelings or empathy for others, or does that come only with the actual ingestion of the alcohol?

Anyway, it's OT, and I'm the one that started the thread!

Chino

Are there sober people who have no feelings or empathy for others? Or any of the behaviors/traits exhibited by A's?

Maybe OT but I'm finding this exploration fascinating. There are so many variables. Long before my daughter was in active addiction, she suffered panic attacks (started around 6 years of age). When she had no access to mood altering substances, she silently suffered in misery, just like she did eventually with substances.

Cyranoak

I look at it this way-- I have a buddy who is gay and thinks the most ridiculous thing he's ever heard is that homosexuality is a choice. It's completely asinine. Why does he think that? Because in his opinion no person in their right mind would choose to be homosexual in this society. He would choose to be straight and tried to pass as such for many years by acting so, but he didn't get a choice. He's gay. He's gay just like I'm not gay (which I didn't choose either). By the time he finally admitted to us that he was gay it was a relief for him, and a relief for us because it was already obvious and we were tired of pretending we didn't know.

I believe this same dynamic applies directly to most alcoholics. No person in their right mind would choose to live this way. That leaves only two options-- it's not a choice or they are not in their "right minds." Either way it isn't a conscious informed choice, so I don't believe the majority of alcoholics can simply choose not to drink.

What many of them can choose is to engage in recovery, and many of them do. By doing this they create a scenario where they can choose not to drink-- but I for one don't believe for a second that it's easy.

Cyranoak

Kittyboo

For those who have stopped drinking and are in recovery, any of you should be commended for your hard work and CHOICE to take back your life.

When someone says it is a choice for an alcoholic to drink, I believe it is. If it wasn't a choice, there would be no recovering alcoholics.

" don't believe the majority of alcoholics can simply choose not to drink.

"What many of them can choose is to engage in recovery, and many of them do. By doing this they create a scenario where they can choose not to drink-- but I for one don't believe for a second that it's easy. "....

But you say at first you don't think they can simply choose not to drink... then you say they create a scenario, where they choose not to drink.
They are still choosing.

It is not easy to stop, I don't think anyone thinks that, it takes daily, minute by minute, second by second hard work and awareness and choice.

It is an addiction, it is one where in the beginning stages the choice is made to drink. Progressively the body becomes dependent on it, which, depending on how far deep one is, can make it incredibly physically dangerous to stop. There is a need to drink. There is a need to make the pain stop. There is a need to numb oneself. There is a need to cope.

And when and if it has all become enough, someone will work a program harder than they have ever worked anything before in their entire life. But they do so, and many RA's have said when they decide to become honest with themselves and others about what they are doing to themselves and those who love them.
To become honest with oneself in this context means that they accept their actions and behavior. They accept that they have the power to enter a program and put an end to it.

To enter a program and work on it daily, is a choice. To not work a program and not work on it daily, is a choice.
If it's going to be stated that it is a disease, and many times I have read it being compared to cancer (being beyond someone's control, which is definitely true)...but lf I had cancer, I could make the choice to not enter a treatment program and go through chemotherapy, which is said to be a horrible experience in some cases, and just choose to let the cancer spread and kill me because it all seemed to difficult, or I make the choice to accept treatment and do whatever I need to do to beat it.
Saying it is a disease does not negate the choice to enter a treatment program.

And this is MY opinion only.

This is a hot topic no doubt, but no one here is trying to put anyone specifically directly down, or insult them. It is sharing experiences and opinions, and knowledge. Everyone has had personal painful experiences re:alcoholism, on one side or the other, or on both. But everyone is also here for the same reasons. To encourage and support, share, learn and heal.

hadenoughnow

I believe that my exah feels incredible shame over his drinking (I've seen glimpses of it over the years). The problem is the incredible amount of damage he is willing to do to the lives of others in order to hide his shame and stay in denial.

He may not have a choice to drink or not but he does have the choice of getting help. He literally cannot imagine life without alcohol, he told me he would rather be dead.

LosingmyMisery

Weak character? There are plenty of "non-alcoholics" who are lacking in the character department. Did I have issues? Yes. Did I drink to numb them? Yes. Did it create problems? Absolutely. I became addicted to alcohol and the guilt, shame, and obsession were unbearable. I was caught up in a horrible cycle and stopping seemed impossible. I was in denial and I truly thought I was only hurting myself. I now know that was not the case. I hurt those who I cared about the most and cared about me. I clearly was not thinking clearly. Today, I am sober. Thank goodness. Let me tell you, alcoholics who have overcome their struggles have amazing character. Some, the best I will ever know or see. Maybe I was lacking skill, tools, esteem and that is why I drank. Lacking in character, I think not, not now, not today.

Terminally Unique

I have pondered this in depth before, and have concluded that I do not need to be commended for doing what was right for myself an for my family. My own chosen method of recovery, while having no structured "amends" process built-in to it, effectively forces the same thing by default. With AVRT, there is no disease, no underlying issues, no coping, and no enabling to hide behind.

You are stripped bare to take full personal responsibility for all of your actions, and take a direct, moral hit for each time you made the decision not to turn things around. While this is not pretty at first, and is a very hard pill to swallow, what actually ends up happening is that the more of the wreckage that you own up front, the more people credit you for the improvement when it finally comes.

Mightyqueen801

Oh yes, there definitely are. I'm sure we all know a few of those. But lack of ability to see another's POV or have empathy for others is more common in the A population than the general population, in my observation, and often even after they are sober. Again, this has just been my observation.

Interesting about your daughter. I also suffered from panic attacks and anxiety attacks and OCD since I was around 6 years old. You know you aren't "normal" as a kid like that but you don't know how to fix it. I didn't realize there was something wrong with me other than being "weird" until I was past 40 and went into therapy. Drinking and use of substances did help me socially (and also caused problems, of course!) but I was never addicted to anything. I just stopped drinking to get drunk and partying because I had a child to raise. That sort of makes a case for the tendency toward real addiction to be possibly genetic. If I was an addictive type, I wouldn't have been able to just decide to stop.

Of course, I'm still weird. But I've learned to embrace it!

Mightyqueen801

Absolutely. And thanks for your sharing.

Well stated.

Thanks for stating that. As stated in my first post, I was somewhat surprised to hear the RA say what she said because it was not something I had seen in the three alcoholics/addicts closest to me. Although, I know my late brother had serious regrets that sticking a Hep-C-infested needle into his arm 25 years earlier was going to prevent him from living long enough to see his daughter graduate from college. Still, for most of his life, he continued to blame his long-ago drug use and subsequent alcoholism on everything and everyone else.

I'm truly glad that "Today, you are sober."

yorkiegirl

I'm not sure there is a clear division between "codie versus addict" perspective. Codies (speaking as one) often act like addicts (without mind-altering substances warping our thinking) in which the addict (or someone else's addiction) is the drug of the codie's choice.

I've been around addicts/alcoholics my whole life. I do think they carry tremendous amounts of shame & guilt.

I can find ten zillion flaws, mistakes, weaknesses, problems with addicts (alcohol addicts), but as a codie, I should be working on identifying my own issues & working on them.