m1k3

I disagree here. I think I see what AVRT is saying in the all the other behaviors were caused by the As CHOOSING to drink. That was a choice they made, all the sh1t that happened afterwards is the result of that choice.

If you do not own up to making that choice and it's consequences then you are still in denial. Just the same as if I apologized for my actions when I fought, pleaded, and everything else I did to get my aw to stop drinking without owning up to the fact that I have an issue with control and in particular my attempts to control her and her drinking. If I don't own up to my choices apologizing for my behaviors is meaningless and still gives me a home for my denial.

It's called assuming responsibility. In my recovery I have assumed responsibility for all the choices I made in my train wreck of a relationship with my AW.

My owning up to my less than skillful choices does not mitigate her choice to drink and the subsequent behaviors brought on by that drinking.

This is just my opinion and experience so take what you want and leave the rest.

Your friend,

wellnowwhat

I think in committing to a relationship with a spouse or BF, or by having children, the onus is on us to be the best we can be. The choices I may make for my health whether smoking, drinking, diet, lack of exercising, untended health issues, physical or mental, are all rolled up in that onus. I think an attitude of "I'll do what I want to me - it's my body" belittles the relationship.

And ^^^ what AVRT says.

Terminally Unique

Precisely.

m1k3

cynical one, I like like to use skillful or unskillful rather than acceptable or unacceptable. I'm from the school their are no good or bad choices, just choices and consequences.

I don't think many people choose to do unacceptable things, it's just that they made a choice that seemed like a good idea at the time without considering the results of that choice. So, it is quite possible to make an unskillful choice by ignoring or not considering the consequences and still get lucky and avoid a bad consequence.

Just the weird way I tend to look at the world.

Your friend,

lyssabee

Back to the original question for a moment - my husband was a drug addict, FWIW - he never apologized to me for what he did, and quite frankly, it wouldn't have mattered. As has been pointed out several times, the fact that he quit, both the drugs and the addict behavior, was what mattered to me. I *chose* to stick around while he did those things, so that's my own doing.

In my opinion - and I appreciate that this may not be a popular thought, and that's okay - I think the only people we owe something to, including an apology for doing bad stuff, are our kids. You might want to apologize, and that's great! Someone may want an apology from you, and that's okay too. But it isn't about what's owed.

That said, my husband once apologized to me a couple of years later, while we were struggling with something personal, that his actions had made our current situation more difficult. That meant something to me - the connection he made, and the sorrow he felt was more real than "I'm sorry I effed up".

Thumper

There are implied promises to those we marry and to the children we have. Alcoholism negates those promises in such a profound way that it is hard to compare it to an unhealthy diet, lack of exercise, or even smoking.

I did apologize for my disrespectful and damaging behavior. I meant the apology and I've followed it with behaving more respectfully and staying out of his business - a truer reflection of who I think I am. FWIW I don't think it made him feel any better either.

ETA: Also - there is a difference between being sorry you drank and being sorry the drinking didn't work out. It seems a fine line, but an important one.

GettingBy

OH Thumper... I love this. It's so perfect, and so timely for me. My AH finally set up an appointment with a marriage counselor (he'd been threatening it since maybe May or June!). We went this afternoon... I went with no expectations - just brought myself and my truth. I spoke honestly and sincerely about the things that bother me. I talked about my Al-anon recovery and the things I have learned about my own toxic behavior.

AH exhibited classic addict in denial behavior. I didn't say a word - I didn't have to because the counselor (he picked!!) saw right through it. Called him on it repeatedly... and concluded the session by saying, "You want everything to just magically go away. You want your wife to just forgive/forget and sweep it all under the carpet. But you just don't get it, do you? You have not acknowledged or accepted responsibility for all the hurt your behavior is causing. You could say "I'm sorry" right now, but it wouldn't mean a thing... because you will continue on with your drinking, hurting your wife, because you feel entitled to act this way."

I am right where I need to be. My life is working out just as my HP intended. I am grateful for having that appointment today. It helped to have a 3rd party witness the insanity.

Back to the original topic... for me... it's not the words, its the action. It's "cowboying up", taking responsibility for oneself... swallowing that big fat pill call Responsibility. I don't want to have an empty "I'm sorry"... I want to see a change in actions. And for me right now, everytime I wish that someone else would change... I take that opportunity to dig a little deeper into my own recovery.

Thanks for letting me share,
Shannon

choublak

Yes but...if someone marries an alcoholic, knowing the person is an alcoholic, isn't that like saying you accept the person for who they are, alcoholism and all?

Terminally Unique

That's an interesting question, although I would wager that quite a few have no idea what lies ahead.

Hopefully it won't derail this thread, though. :-)

SoloMio

Wow!! Three cheers for the counselor! Better than the one I went to--who saw through squat. When AH told her that the reason he stayed out drinking one night was because I didn't include him in the Chinese take-out (I had left a text message, but whatever), she told me that I should have given him more "information."

Good for you, and good for the counselor.

Thumper

In some ways yes and this kept me 'stuck' for many years. I didn't actually identify my xah as an alcoholic when I married him but he certainly drank and a lot of the things I had big issues with weren't really any different then when I married him.

Example -

When we visited relatives (and we did a lot) drinking beer with his buddy or still sleeping from drinking to much, or being gone drinking till the last minute while I loaded my suitcase in the car wasn't a big deal. I can carry a suitcase. I don't need a bell hop. He was not falling down drunk.

Him doing the same while I loaded 5 suit cases, two car seats, stroller, cooler for food, water cups, extra snow boots and coats, two babies, and two other kids resulted in some different feelings on the matter. I didn't anticipate that. We expect people to grow up when life gets bigger.

Other things just got worse plain and simple because alcoholism is progressive.

Children changed everything for me, and nothing for him. Not just in the actual logistics like above but in all ways. I did not predict that. I view him as a different man more so because of how he handles fatherhood then I do because of the alcoholism. He is not the father I thought he'd be. I don't know if that is the alcoholism or me living in a fantasy and I no longer think about it because it is what it is today and it drives me crazy to think about it.

MTSlideAddict

I just asked my recovering AH this question. At first he went into the discussion as to how the moral spectrum is vague, and how it would be up to the individual to define their own moral standards; he completely removed himself from the question. Then I asked him to place himself into the question given his moral standards. He answered that with his moral standards drinking is “wrong” for him.

I wanted to share that question with him. It seemed to catch him off guard a bit, but it also made him think.

Terminally Unique

It will always catch them off guard, because addiction necessarily warps perception in order to fit the addictive mandate, especially one's sense of right and wrong. To an addicted person, the use of alcohol and other drugs is not morally wrong, only intoxicated behavior is. Somewhere deep down, though, still remain the original values and perceptions from prior to the addiction, and it is important to bring those back to the surface.

You seem to have made a good stab at it, though, and you may have done him a favor. Good for you.

simplyfab

We don't "put" ourselves in that situation just for the sake of drinking. If it were that easy, there wouldn't be as many alcoholics. There wouldn't be as many families destroyed, or lives lost. This is an illness.
I can't apologize for something I have no control over or something I have a defect in, so much more than a person who has ADD can control his impulses. Once recognized and diagnosed, with the right tools, it can be controlled. It's not like I had a magic ball that looks into the future and informs me that at this point in my life, this is going to happen.
That's why the cycle I went through was so horrendous. I couldn't understand why I couldn't just stop. Why am I like this? How can I hate drinking so much yet want it so bad? I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.
I think if you feel/think that your partner chose to put themselves in that situation and expect for them to feel remorseful for that specific reason, you're going to start harboring feelings of resentment towards them, which in time will lead to hate.
If they relapse over and over, its not them "doing it to you" so to speak. It's them still battling the disease within themselves.
I think once one comes to terms with that part of their partners addiction, the answers would become more clear. Being able to detach with love would come more easily. To know that this is them, doing it to themselves and regardless if you were there or not, it would still be happening.

Terminally Unique

I never said that anyone intentionally sets out to become addicted. People do, however, usually keep up the drinking long after they realize that something is definitely wrong, though. They usually also strongly suspect during that time that they will eventually have to stop.

I wouldn't quite say that you have no control. If that were the case, then you really would be hopeless. In any case, I did clarify (twice) that I am not an advocate of life-long remorse and self-debasement; that is not why I am interested in this.

I believe that, given our history, acceptance that something is inherently always wrong to do can be a very potent defense against ever doing it again. So long as drinking, in and of itself, remains an innocent act, the door is still left wide open to having "just one," with unpredictable results.

Once recognized, with the right tools, it can be permanently arrested.

You aren't talking to a "normie" here. I know how it works.

Seren

Hi AVRT......

I find it interesting that you refer to alcoholics (or recovered/recovering alcoholics) as a group of people other than yourself (they, them, and so on instead of we). Do you not consider or did you never consider yourself one. I'm guessing based on your tag line that you use a personal responsibility method for recovery and yet speak as though you are not/were not one.

Have you ever apologized for your drinking to those affected by your drinking?

Terminally Unique

A very astute observation. To be honest, I hadn't really given it much thought, but now that you mention it, there is a reason. Although I once certainly was alcohol-dependent, I no longer am, so no, I no longer consider myself alcoholic.

I have, and I have made it clear to them that I will never drink again under any circumstances, and that I will never change my mind. My family has explicit instructions from me, in writing, to immediately show me the door if I do (which I won't).

Thlayli

Glad you are on here AVRT. I really appreciate seeing the RR perspective on things. You seem to be very consistent in your approach. I'm going to have to re-visit the books. If I remember correctly there is a small section for spouses.

Sorry to hijack

simplyfab

Yes, this is true. But every alcoholic is different, as well as is their bottom. Some don't even get close to sobriety and end up losing their lives. Thats the seriousness of the disease.
I recognized/realized/accepted my addiction when I hit MY bottom. That, however, doesn't give me new found insight on the disease itself. Just my own. I can't, now expect for every addict to stop as soon as they realize that something is wrong because I know it's not that easy. If it were, I wouldn't have let my kids go without a decent meal, or live in a dirty house with no stability or structure. I wouldn't have put my SO's career in jeopardy as well as all the other unimaginable things I did.



No control over being an addict is what I meant. For whatever reason I'm an addict, I just am.
Now that I'm sober and accept it, do I have the ability to choose not to drink anymore? Yes I do. And for that reason, I now have control over my addiction. It doesn't have me.

I'm not sure if you're referring to drinking as "innocent" within society or just alcoholics. Because the words innocent and "just one" isn't a reality in addiction. Although, in society, it is. I think part of accepting and recognizing ones addiction is being able to distinguish the difference. That, yes, in a "normie's" mind, alcohol is innocent and consumed without consequences, but in an alcoholics mind, it should be as serious to see it as being taboo.

Thank you for rectifying. That's what I meant.



AVRT, you could have fooled me.
I honestly thought you where a "normie". Very interesting. I'm enjoying this thread very much.
Thank you for that.

halvsie

So, when my abf, who is still living somewhere unknown and not in MY house, calls today and asks if I miss him and I say, "Yes, I miss you, not your addiction." And he says it's nice to be missed.....is this part of a rescue fantasy? Like, I'm going to let him move back in?