rorty

My day went up then down. It was all in my head. My brain was playing out self-destructive day dreams about my AGF and I. She is getting help and is graduating from her outpatient program this week. But she has been "distant" due to fatigue, her meds, and who knows what else.

One slogan that I have been thinking about is "detachment not amputation." It was brought up at the al-anon meeting I attended last night. The idea that space can help someone grow. I want to know if I am understanding the slogan in the right context.

I haven't heard from my AGF in three or four days. But maybe its a good thing to have some space and I want to be supportive. I want to be solid for her. When I go up and down I don't feel that way.

Any suggestions?

Probably what I will try "to feel" tomorrow is "Keep it simple"; "One day at a time"; "Keep the focus on myself"; "Feelings aren't facts"; and "Together we can make it."

m1k3

What is working for me is let my AW own her own recovery. It's harder for me to let go of than all the negative stuff that was going on in my life but it is just as important. I need to keep the focus on me. One of my slogans back in early recovery was "how does this help my recovery"". It was my yardstick for what was important. I need to dust that one off and start using it again myself.

As for the self destructive day dreams what worked for my was when I caught myself getting into that I would ask myself, "who are you talking to?" or "be here now" or even just start to count breaths. Anything to break up the negative thought process. The more you do this the easier it gets and you will begin to do it sooner in the process and not even let it get a good start. From what I understand you're really good if you find yourself counting breaths or doing some mantra before it even starts, that you reacted to the feeling of it starting.

So keep going to Al-Anon, keep coming here and keep working your program. We are all here to help each other.



Your friend,

wellnowwhat

I've never heard the "detachment not amputation" slogan. I kinda like it.

When we talk about detachment in my group we talk of "detaching with love". For most it seems that "with love" is too hard at times and several have talked of "detaching without anger" or "detaching with civility" because that is all they can do at that time.

I think that how we detach is important. If it's slighting, or cold-shouldering, or spiteful or done with rage or as a victim, it is just one more reaction in our arsenal. If it is abrupt and or arbitrary and ill-considered it can be controlling. And if is "amputation" that is not detachment.

Before my program I "detached with rage". I would physically leave the room if I detected he had been drinking and cocooned in my bedroom with my t.v. So I worked on detaching without anger. Now I no longer have to physically leave the room and I no longer feel the rage or anger. If an unbid feeling pops up it is usually pity or a sadness, but even that is fleeting now.

My AH is not in recovery so I get lots of practice and I am getting pretty good at it. And because I am not reacting, the house is waaaaaay less tense and we can get along fairly well. My AH gets quieter when he drinks and then takes himself off to bed, so it was my reactions creating the tension.

For me, I feel detachment is a sort of an "unruffledness" (is that even a word?). I just don't get drawn in; I don't get angry or if I do it is very fleeting and I don't act on it; I don't pout; and if I need to physically withdraw I don't do it with a dramatic flair to get attention. I am aware, but calm. His issues are his.

As I type this it occurs how difficult it is to describe it. And maybe I am not doing it right, but what I am doing seems to work for me, and for us. And thank goodness!

m1k3

LOL, detaching with rage, been there, done that.

I find that I am doing much better with my RAW now that we are separated. My issues are I now want to swing over to the 'look how good our future could be' thought process. Just as bad a the negative thought processes because neither is based in reality.

Oh well, progress not perfection.

Your friend,

rorty

@ Mike
thank you for helping me out with the self-destructive day dreams. Your slogan "who am I talking to?" kicked in several times today when I caught myself having angry or frustrating thoughts. Also I like how you point out that its helpful to "break up" the negative thought process. It creates a nice visual when I need it. I am also curious why you think visualizing a future with your AW is unproductive? Is it because it is "unrealistic" as you should exclusively be focusing on your emotions?

Brief venting...
I have had this weird habit for weeks now. I check my phone to see if my AGF is calling to break up with me. It stresses me out so badly. Every time I get a text my heart races to find out... its not from her. If I clear my mind I realize I'm a good guy. Why am I thinking this way?

I'm going to an another Al-anon meeting tonight. They really help.

@wellnowwhat
I don't live with my AGF but when I am in her presence and she starts to talk about coke, alcohol, partying, etc... I detach in a similar manner. Sometimes I merely feel let down by her words and actions. But I am learning that to detach also means to let go of those words and actions. At least right now the Al-anon skills seem to suggest that my A is unreliable and untrustworthy (even in recovery). No doubt much of my emotional frustration is tied to her alcoholism, but it hurts to think that this entire relationship may not be "real" to her. I can say that for me it is very real.

rorty

The consensus at my Al-anon meeting tonight was *not* to tell my A that I am attending. Any thoughts on this?

JenT1968

Detachment with love is a goal, and it depends what love means to you. detachment with compassion, without anger, with civility - all are good. But it is (In my opinion) the detachment that is primarily most important to our health and progress. Feelings of anger may accompany the detachment, or sadness and pity, or love, but these are all just feelings - each no "better" or "worse" than the other - flouncing out of the room is an action, probably a counterproductive one, unless it gets the anger out of your system, you can forgive yourself and it allows you to detach unemotionally, without their actions ruminating around in your head and controlling your actions.

to me, "detachment, not amputation" would be explaining that it doesn't always have to be all or nothing. However I think it is worth pointing out that for some people, in some situations, detaching with anger or rage is the only way to detach at all, expecially to begin with, and that isn't wrong, that is a helpful step in the right direction. For some, amputation of the relationship completely is actually the healthiest thing of all.

I found alanon in the beginning to be just another group of people I was trying to please, trying to do it the right way - that isn't a fault with al-anon, that is my issue. But I'm not a fan of "slogans" in general and some of the alanon ones, posted around the room (without the exploration and discussion you are clearly having), to a newcomer I found very unhelpful. I love that you are exploring the slogans and what they could mean that is helpful to you.

I also love what Mike said about "how is this helping my recovery?" - can you explore what that would mean in the context of your question about telling your A that you are attending al-anon?

m1k3

First, your welcome, I'm glad it helped.

The second is a little harder to explain. It has to do with the 1st 3 steps which in my opinion are about giving up the illusion of control. I can't control her drinking, ever and trying to is just setting myself up for failure. She is going to do whatever she is going to do.

Well it's the same with her recovery. I have no control over that also and expecting results that I want for her recovery are just as futile as expecting results for her drinking when she was active. She will either work her recovery or she won't. I don't have any control over that. Even if she does a complete recovery it doesn't mean the people we will be at that point will even want to be together again.

To use a slogan expectations are future disappointments or expectations are premeditated resentments.

You have no more right to expect certain behaviors from someone than they do of you. Its another case of giving into the illusion of control. You are trying to control the situation by imagining the outcome.

Won't work.

One day at a time.

Hope that helps.

Your friend,

wellnowwhat

However I think it is worth pointing out that for some people, in some situations, detaching with anger or rage is the only way to detach at all, expecially to begin with, and that isn't wrong, that is a helpful step in the right direction. For some, amputation of the relationship completely is actually the healthiest thing of all.

I agree that, in some situations, detaching with anger or rage is the best way to wedge some distance, physically and/or emotionally with the A. But it is a step towards detachment and not what I think of as detachment. I think that unless the anger and rage (and worry) are addressed you are still attached to that person by those emotions.

And yes, amputation of the relationship is definitely desirable in some (most?) situations, but often, as we read on these boards, the relationship is severed, but the person is not yet detached.

I can't really speak from experience in these types of situations. My day-to-day isn't too difficult, just kinda empty, so I am in a situation where it is not a choice of having to leave, but choosing to leave. (Kids are grown.) I am guessing that some people who leave do their detaching before they make the final split, and some people make the split and then begin the detaching. Neither is right or wrong and either way, it's tough work, I think.

wellnowwhat

The consensus at my Al-anon meeting tonight was *not* to tell my A that I am attending. Any thoughts on this?

It is something you need to decide for you and your AGF.

Your AGF is in treatment you said and I thought most treatment programs think it is a good idea for the A's support system have some recovery as well so that the AGF isn't going right back into a toxic situation? I don't know this, my AH's never done recovery, but I think this is what I've read here. If that is the case, she may welcome the news.

I usually think that unless the Alanon member might be putting themselves in danger, or the information might make a toxic relationship unbearable, it's preferable not to have to sneak away to Alanon.

I'm not much good with keeping secrets. They eat at me.

fulloffaith

Interesting topic. Detachment is hard and really speaks to our compulsiveness and over involvement with our A's. I actually amputated, with love. It's easier for me b/c I know I'm still sick enough to be pulled back into lies, manipulation, etc. I needed to make a complete break. We r completely NC, but I still spend too much time with thoughts of him. I deleted my Facebook b/c it was another way I would check on him--- completely unhealthy!

I love mike's advice- what is this doing for my recovery.!! So great. I was telling myself, what bringse peace. But I see now that I could even twist that to help me justify obsessive or nosy behaviors; because I have an issue and those actions would provide a sense of peace. So, thank you. I will def revise my self talk to ne more healthy for me. What is best for MY recovery? I love it.

Well now what- you have patience that I envy. It takes a ton of work on yourself to get to a place where you can live lovingly with an active drinker. For me, I could not ignore the fight picking and occasional meanness. We all have our own A's and stories! I do often wonder if a stronger or healthier wife could have handled more. Your calmness and peace is inspiring.

I agree that this recovery for us can feel selfish. But it's not! Think of what helps you and your recovery and that brings you to true and healthy place. Thx for all your stories, I needed to hear some of this today.

rorty

Guys! Thank you for your replies and support! A lot of good posts here.

@M1k3 - This says it all. Thank you man.
"You have no more right to expect certain behaviors from someone than they do of you. Its another case of giving into the illusion of control. You are trying to control the situation by imagining the outcome.
Won't work.
One day at a time."

@wellnowwhat
" If that is the case, she may welcome the news."
-Thanks for this. She is safe and at home with her family. You are probably right. She would be happy to hear about this. I think it helps her to hear that I am doing alright as I grapple with my own recovery.

@Anvilhead - This clarifies detachment very clearly. Thank you for your input.
"her life is HERS to conduct, and that frees you up to concentrate on your own. so we end up with TWO free-standing individuals. we make decisions based on what is best for US and we do that FIRST. we look at our world with a fresh discerning eye....as if life were a fruit stand...we seek out quality, freshness, that which is in season, and that which will be in our own best interests."

wellnowwhat

Well now what- you have patience that I envy. It takes a ton of work on yourself to get to a place where you can live lovingly with an active drinker. For me, I could not ignore the fight picking and occasional meanness. We all have our own A's and stories! I do often wonder if a stronger or healthier wife could have handled more. Your calmness and peace is inspiring.
You give me more credit than I deserve. At this point I am about as lucky as someone can be while living with an active alcoholic. It kinda feels funny to say "lucky". He is working, is helpful, tries to be a good husband and father, but is an alcoholic and every evening he drinks, gets quieter and then goes to bed. There is no fight picking or meanness. So, with no drama, it's not tough, but can be frustrating or lonely at times, but not too hard to detach from. And it's not a real marriage anymore. We're housemates. And I wonder if it's enough. It's seems I am stuck between not bad enough and not good enough. But this is the way it's been for a couple of years and I can reasonably expect it to get worse, again.

Rorty:
You seem to be very thoughtful and levelheaded. I think you are doing great.

M1k3:
Love your advice, here and other posts too. I envy your recovery.

Anvilhead:
Love your advice too! Straight forward and dead on!

SR:
Love this Site!

Portia123

Anonimity (sp?) is one cornerstone of Al-Anon. You don't have to tell anyone that you attend. It is your decision alone as to whether to tell your A whether you are going or not. Al-Anon focuses on our own recovery and how to take care of ourselves. If telling your A you are going to Al-Anon will hamper your recovery, or cause you harm, then don't tell. I didn't tell my RAH for a while that I was going to Al-Anon, but eventually during one of his recovery periods, I told him and nothing negative came of it. I guess, for me, it's whether it is ever the right time to tell or whether it is right to ever tell at all. Bottom line, do what is best for you and you alone.

Take what you like and leave the rest. Good luck to you!

rorty

Based on what I am hearing in this discussion detachment means that you begin to regard yourself as an "individual," neutralizing your emotions and relationship to an alcoholic, separating out your identity in "the present moment" from your relationship. As M1k3 points out, the neutralization process requires leaving your alcoholic to their own actions. Neutralization still implies that their is a bond, connection, or relation to an alcoholic but does not imply an " emotional relationship" where two people contribute an equal amount of love, thoughtfulness, and partnership and share life experiences together. Keeping your A in a gray, neutral zone, does not mean that you are "severed" (or "amputated"). Emotions, conflicts, and issues arise because we cannot be perfectly detached; life happens, and everyone has up days and down days.

I relate to this so much. I have been using the suggestions on this thread to detach "neutralize" thoughts of my AGF. I have made some good strides. I have stopped checking her facebook page, stopped checking for her texts, and have been pretty successful at clearing my head of her when thoughts pop up.

BUT with all of that space in my brain and emotional fog dispersed I feel empty too, much like an empty closet. When I focus on the present feel bored, tired, and lonely. I am starting to see that I have been deferring a few major projects, which is a plus, mostly I feel like a blank slate.

Thank you for your support everyone. I really feel alright and I am getting better

rorty

Update

Tonight my RAGF called me and I had the opportunity to tell her that I am now attending al-anon meetings. She was startled by it. We talked about the meeting and detachment as a tool. It was a positive conversation. I tried to convey through my tonality that I am not "amputating" (or as she fears me "leaving"). We exchanged slogans we liked and then she got off to go to bed. Tomorrow marks thirty days sober for her.

This conversation marks a breakthrough in my development. It is the first time in months that I been able to speak to her and stay completely neutral (detached). In the past I have felt very needy towards her during these conversations. I have tried to reaffirm our feelings with "I love yous," cute little notes, and silliness. We haven't talked about "us" or had sex in months. Tonight marks the first time that I have felt enlightened by my own emotional self-control. I had no expectations from her and nothing to hide. I did talk very gently to her (she is very fragile) but I was real with her. I was genuine. I feel wonderful and free.*

*We are still early in our recoveries. There will be ups-and-downs. But I think what I am experiencing tonight is definitely the result of this discussion on the meaning of detachment, emotional control, and self-awareness.

* One day at time.

fulloffaith

I am happy to here that your decision to talk about your own recovery yielded such positive feelings/results.
It's so helpful to hear about others' good experiences with detaching, remaining kind, while also taking care of yourself. I have the same problem of too much think time/empty closet if I am not obsessing about AH. But... At least with recovery, I realize it and work on it. It's tough to stay in the present moment without ruminating about past and worrying about future. It's a good goal though, something to strive for.

rorty

I know exactly how you feel. Even when I have cleared my thoughts there are times that I feel highly emotional. I experience frustration, anger, loneliness. But these feelings have become disassociated from my RAGF by the practice of detachment. I let these feelings blow through me like a cold, howling wind. When I do not focus my attention on them they subside.

*Here is my go-to guide for dispersing a negative thought cycle.

• I use M1k3's mantra: "Who am I talking to?" to break up a flood of bad thoughts
• I occupy my mind (and free time) with a book, a movie, a video game, etc.
• I work out.
• I take a nap.
• I read and post on SR constantly. It feels like a portable source of support (and I can read it at work and on my phone).
• I treat myself to takeout.
• I attend Al-anon meetings and vent on here.