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Recovery & Boundries = Good, In today's world= Dateless

Old 08-12-2011, 06:45 PM
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Recovery & Boundries = Good, In today's world= Dateless

This is just something I've been noticing and its sorta funny that I wanted to share. So, I've been noticing that alot of people in my age group 25-35 really need a 12 step program/recovery/life lessons badly. And I don't just mean codies or A's. Everyone. I went out on a date with a 35 year old physical therapist last week. Was set up by a mutual friend so I thought it would be ok. She said he was "professional" and he was "well off in his career". He asked her to set him up with me and he called me and asked me out. I first suggested just meeting for appetizers and a drink but he insisted he take me to a nice hibachi place and we did the whole hibachi table with the japanese chef thing. I love that food by the way. Anyway, he was nice and we had good convo. We both ordered our meals and he ordered all these sushi rolls before we got our actual dinner. I didn't eat any of it. We both had a drink. Usually when I go to those places, they give you so much food, that I have so much left over. Well, he ate his sushi rolls, his dinner, then he asked me if I was going to eat the rest of my meal lol. I said ok...I really didn't care if he was hungry.

So the check comes and he takes it and it was around 100. So I'm thinking since he asked me out, he should pay. And I didn't eat any of those extra sushi rolls that he ordered and I only wanted to do apps but he suggested dinner. He goes "can you pay the tip"!? So the codie in me thought about it for a second like maybe I should. Then I said to him, no you asked me out, I don't think that's my responsibility. I mean, I thought that was a little rude. Well, he got a little heated and gave me a dirty look! He ended up paying, but on the way out I asked him can I ask you why you asked me to pay the tip when you were the one that asked me out, he said "I don't know I thought you would be cool, others girls would do it". I never heard from him again.

And you know what? I believe him! Girls do so much sh&t today just to have a man, that if you aren't jumping through hoops for a guy, he just moves on to the next one that will pay or do whatever he wants. If you have boundries and limits with men and ask for respect, you don't get asked out again. What's with some men today. Its hard to be young and actually have boundries with people because most young people turn their noses up at boundries. I don't want to be with anyone anyway that doesn't respect boundries, but geez its few and far between today to find someone that "gets it". I know not ALL men are like that but alot ARE. Thanks for letting me rant.

Anyone else notice this?
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Old 08-12-2011, 06:58 PM
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duqld717, right on! I could see myself back in the day, "feeling bad" and offering to pay half or something. . . and then, later feeling crappy about it!

I think it's great that you let him know that he asked you out and he should pay for the dinner *and* tip! (Although I totally agree with you, I also think it was okay that he asked if you would pay for the tip. However, when you stated that you felt he should because he asked you out, I think he should've been totally fine with that.) These are "little things" but they are important.
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Old 08-12-2011, 08:44 PM
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I've also just noticed on fb that a guy I went out with over a month ago is now engaged lol. Nice. Creeeeeps. What is wrong with people?
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Old 08-13-2011, 09:30 AM
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Well...
I see you're in the Northeast and I'm in the Northwest, and that might be part of it, and given the age of the guy you went out with, I suspect I'm also quite a bit older than you are...

... but if I went out on a first date with someone, I would expect to split the check. Actually, I would want to, otherwise I'd feel indebted to him somehow, and sort of on the hook for going out on a second date, even if I thought he was a total douchebag. Of course, I haven't dated for 20 years, so I could be totally out of touch. To me, his comment "other girls would have" was much more offensive than him asking you to pitch in the tip (so in my eyes, it was good riddance either way).

That said -- if it's an important boundary for you, by all means, stick to your guns. But I also think it might be worth thinking about why that is such an important boundary to you? It isn't for me, but I have other boundaries that are very important -- and it's usually because they're a reflection of something my AXH used to do.
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Old 08-13-2011, 10:22 AM
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Lillamy-Yes, its an important boundary for me because my ex used me alot to pay for things. And so do alot of guys in the area I live. Most of my girlfriends pay for their men as well who aren't A's because A.)they are lazy B.) they refuse to better themselves and get a decent job. So this is very important to me that someone doesn't freeload off me for money. I'm all for empowering women, but I think alot of young guys today use this to their advantage. They see women going for what they want and having a good job too. So, they sit back and let her do everything and pay for everything.
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Old 08-13-2011, 11:03 AM
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This money boundary is interesting. I think as codies we are used to being the financially responsible ones in a relationship. I know I have all my adult life! Now, when I date, if the man asks me for any money at all for any reason I state quite clearly that if he wants to date me he must never ask me for money. Any money I have that I don't need to support myself is going to be used to help out my children and grandchildren! Also, the request for money will always cause me to ditch the guy as soon as possible! When I go to dinner with someone if the man has asked me, I expect him to pay and if I have suggested dinner, I always will grab the check. Fair is fair, but I won't be anyone's patsy any more.
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Old 08-13-2011, 01:13 PM
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See, I have the same fear when it comes to my bank accounts, but not when it comes to something like dinner.

My fiance is an economist who is, if anything, extremely careful with spending money (his own or anyone else's). And still, a big concern of mine is when we get married, sharing an account with him -- because my AXH used to burn through his and then get started on mine... So I've already told him that I will have a problem with that, and that we'll just have to find another way to handle the finances than having joint account... so I get that financial boundaries can be very, very important.

It's sad that there are so many freeloaders who don't even have addiction problems. Have they no pride????
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Old 08-13-2011, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by lillamy View Post

It's sad that there are so many freeloaders who don't even have addiction problems. Have they no pride????
Yes, its very sad. Men my age aren't raised right or something or at least men aren't raised like they use to be, like to open car doors and be gentlemen. Maybe they are raised ok and something goes wrong along the way, i dont know? Alot of them really don't apply themselves and they certainly aren't equipped to be dating properly. I have stories and stories that I could write of women I know who buy homes and let the man live there for free, they work and he barely works part time. And these men have no addiction. A part of me thinks that women and men's role's have reversed alot. And a part of me thinks that alot of women have no respect for themselves and are so desperate for a man, that they will do absolutely anything to keep a man happy even when he doesn't deserve it. That's just my opinion. Asking for money from me because you desperately need it is one thing, but asking for it because you are lazy is another. Huge Huge boundary of mine.
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Old 08-13-2011, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by duqld1717 View Post
Lillamy-Yes, its an important boundary for me because my ex used me alot to pay for things. And so do alot of guys in the area I live. Most of my girlfriends pay for their men as well who aren't A's because A.)they are lazy B.) they refuse to better themselves and get a decent job. So this is very important to me that someone doesn't freeload off me for money. I'm all for empowering women, but I think alot of young guys today use this to their advantage. They see women going for what they want and having a good job too. So, they sit back and let her do everything and pay for everything.
Sounds all too familiar!
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Old 08-13-2011, 03:29 PM
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Yeah my ex would pay sometimes, but if he wanted me to pay for something more expensive and I didn't want to because I felt like he was using me, he would make the rest of the evening so miserable. Its like he conditioned me like a dog to just pay and not complain. You pay= Him being pleasant the rest of the night. You don't pay = He will be a miserable b*tch towards me all night. Some A's are just plain cheap, gotta save everything they got for the beer store or the local bar. I'm weird about guys that ask for money now or flat out ask me to pay for things.

Ok, remind me why I even missed this person at one point?????
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Old 08-13-2011, 04:26 PM
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if he wanted me to pay for something more expensive and I didn't want to because I felt like he was using me, he would make the rest of the evening so miserable. Its like he conditioned me like a dog to just pay and not complain.
Mine was the same way -- except not with money, but with sex. Ugh. That sounds way too familiar...
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Old 08-13-2011, 09:20 PM
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I've only "gone out" once with a guy since I broke up with XABF. It was originally going to be dinner, but ended up being lunch, which was perfectly fine with me. He immediately took the check, tried to pay in cash, but didn't have enough to cover the tip so I offered him enough to cover the rest.
He put the bill on a card instead, which made me feel good.

I have no intention of "seeing" him again. The age gap is larger than I realized, he puts more emphasis on expensive mechanical toys than I feel comfortable with (he drove a black Porshe convertible that day, and informed me that it was his "spare car," he drove it specifically to impress me, and hoped it was working), he told me about a comment he had made to his daughter that I didn't care for (a rather selfish comment about his daughter's mother, and he seemed rather proud of it), plus even though he's legally separated he's still officially married and doesn't intend to ever marry someone else again.

All in all, not a good long-term investment! But lunch was fun, and I felt good afterwards, both because he treated me well, and also because I had learned enough in my recovery to realize that he was not a good bet for what I was looking for, in spite of his good behavior during lunch.

That said, I still see him in the hallways at work, and we'll smile and exchange pleasantries. I do get the vibe that he's still interested, but by the same token, he's also a gentlemen enough to recognize that I'm not, and not push it.
I'm not in a rush to date anyone, him or anyone else, for awhile yet, but that lunch date came at a good time in my recovery, because it helped me reinforce some things I had been working on, and let go of other things that I shouldn't have been holding on to.

I also learned that it's okay for me to have my own opinions about things, and I don't really have to justify them if I don't want to. In this case, I simply told him that I enjoyed lunch (which is true), and that I was looking for someone closer to my own age (also true), and left out the rest because it wasn't that important.
He is who he is, I am who I am, and as far as I'm concerned our identities are not compatible. Why hurt someone's feelings trying to make a point that doesn't need to be made?


I think that someone getting upset about you not paying the tip, then implying that you're an inferior woman because you didn't, is extremely rude. I don't mind helping to pay for things, but it's important for me to feel that I have a choice to do so. (In the beginning with XABF, I did have a choice. Towards the end, he picked everywhere we went - which was more than we could afford - and told me how much of it I'd be paying for. I never felt like I had a choice to cancel or refuse, he'd go ballistic and pull out all his strongest emotional abuse tactics.)
If it was discussed prior to dinner, or if the meals were more equal in cost and you were also interested in going to a full dinner, or if the restaurant was your idea entirely, then that's one thing. But to order so much extra, and try to eat your dinner, too? If he had enough money for all that food, he has enough for a tip.
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Old 08-13-2011, 11:07 PM
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duqld I get it... *sigh*...

I have experienced and heard so much lately...


Your experience reminded me of when I went with "Mr Family Guy" and "Mr Chivalry", the same guy who stared at the wall when I was talking and left the movie 3 times to talk with someone else. Well, at least he paid. 5$ worth my art movie ticket. Lol.

I get it and I agree many people need therapy, steps... not only me lol

Just today.. I was with a friend who is a doctor.. and we ran into her friends... a couple... they talked about the womanīs upcoming plastic surgery.

Later on my friend tells me the man told her "he would pay for her new boobs and liposuction or else that money would be spent in table dances" AND HE WAS SERIOUS..

The jerk... why she is still with him, I donīt know, but perhaps other people wondered the same when I was with XABF and a long string of losers.


I told my therapist similar things about how "picky" I was becoming about people in general and she told me it was a "pendulum" and I was a doormat, now I donīt want to be a doormat at ALL so may be a little bit inflexible, but later on I will be in the "middle" where things are not as big a deal as they look now... BUT my boundaries will still be healthy...

She said its normal to feel this way...

lol


I saw a pair of lesbians later at the market and was thinking perhaps thatīs the way to go. Just kidding! but it crossed my mind....

There has to be wonderful men that pay and know what chivalry is and respect women and respect kids and respect animals and respect nature and respect themselves ...!!! I just donīt know many (or single ones) at this time.
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Old 08-14-2011, 05:52 AM
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I haven't been on a date in nearly two years - nobody (at all) since XABF and for teh first year it was by choice.

I hope I would date differently now - I work in a male dominated profession and I have some really great male coworkers but most of the single ones are in their early 30s (I'm 37) and the age difference would make me uncomfortable. A -big- part of this is the fact that I'm certain I earn more than most of them. I know it, they know it and I think that for me, it would be really important not to feel that I was footing the bill (big part of my relationship with XABF - do not want to go there again).

I actually had a revelation this week - I've been feeling ready to date and this has been my longest ever dry-spell. I got a lot of male attention in my 20s and steady male attention right up until XABF. Since then, literally NADA. Since I felt ready to start dating again about six months ago, part of me is starting to feel a little bit invisible - but the other day I realized that the crickets in my love life mean ... I'm -not- attracting that "same guy" anymore. That steady stream was a particular type and I've been in recovery for almost two years learning about why that type is attracted to me and vice versa. There are two of these in the office and they have both flirted with me intermittently but pretty much steered clear of me in any real sense.

So. I'm not attracting healthy males yet - but I'm also not attracting the same person that I've been attracting since my early 20s. God willing I'll actually be ready to identify a healthy male should one ever cross my path again. And if he asks me out on the first date and ups it to dinner, I'm pretty sure I'll want him to pay. I'll get the next meal, happily - but it will be important for me to have someone buy me dinner.

Thanks for the post, it's got me doing some thinking.

SL.
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Old 08-14-2011, 07:33 AM
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Thanks for the great responses! Its a relief to know I'm not the only girl out there experiencing this kind of stuff from men in the dating world. Men really know how to sweep a girl off her feet, right? (joke). Its really hard to find people today that are healthy and want the same things I want (most people just want to have someone to dominate and overstep my boundries when I'm not looking). Most of my girlfriends put up with ALOT just to say they have someone. I don't want that life. I think that's why I'm having such a hard time because I'm avoiding what seems natural in today's world (one person dominates the other). Even in relationships with no addiction.

Young people today have such strong personalities, I think its because we are the "ME" generation. We don't accept no and we take what we want. We don't accept anything less than the best. Sometimes I think I'm the last person on earth that actually thinks of other people's feelings. But, I feel like this "me, me, I, I" thing with people today has gone overboard. No one stops to smell the roses, its all about instant gratification. People want what they want yesterday. Not today. And if you aren't playin the game, well "next". If you aren't sleeping with someone right away or paying for someone's meal, "next". Dating definately has changed. I swear its because of technology. We get our information so quickly now, and no one talks to each other anymore, its all texting. So why should we want to develop intimate relationships when you can get the cow and the milk for free! Just my 2 cents. Very immature.

Its like 7th grade, only with bank accounts. I will keep everyone updated if I find a creature out in the wild that actually doesn't make me want to run, not walk to the emergency exit.
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Old 08-14-2011, 07:42 AM
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Thanks for this line of posting.

I am struggling to figure out healthy relationships in dating (not quite ready yet), but also just in my life as a whole. If I can't do it with friendships I can't expect myself to do it with romantic relationships.

I am okay being kind of stuck with it at the moment, and I get that it means I am being healthy for myself, but it can be challenging for me and it is nice to know that others are experiencing similar things (not that I want you guys struggling too...but you know what I mean).
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Old 08-14-2011, 09:02 AM
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WELCOME to my world...i have been date less for 14 months..and i am at this point i really dont care now...i rather be alone than but up with the mans crap anyhow...

yes in society today...everyone should read (just READ) the 12 steps...you learn alot of stuff by just reading it...thats how it started with me...it was in someones bathroom...i read it...and wondered WOW, i need to work on some of my issues....and well the rest is history...

i'm in my 40's my girlfriend and i where just talking how we have been sortof dooped in the dating scene because they are either married(with a Mistress), alkies or druggies and divorced that WANT a younger woman(you know the type "long blonde, skinny")....

i dont bother with that...i am me...and i keep moving forward, with family and friends that except me for ME...
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Old 08-14-2011, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by lillamy View Post
Mine was the same way -- except not with money, but with sex. Ugh. That sounds way too familiar...
well of course...remember YOU OWED HIM something...so why not return the favor with sex....

LOL MEN!!
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Old 08-14-2011, 09:13 AM
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I love this topic...we should have a single girls/boys club(with or without children)....teehee
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Old 08-14-2011, 10:15 AM
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Wow! I guess this might be a cultural thing but to be quite honest I think your attitude is unacceptable. Sure, he asked you out and chose the place but contributing the tip to the meal he was paying for was only fair. Tbh, I think it's very rude not to have offered to have paid your own way in the first place.

Don't you get that you were guilty of what you are accusing him of. He wasn't freeloading off of you by asking you to make a small contribution to the meal you had, but by expecting him to pay for all of your meal you were, in fact, freeloading off of him. I know you didn't intend it as such, but it's kind of hypocritical.

Tbh, the very first thing I thought of when I read that he asked you to pay for the tip, was that he was checking to see if you were the kind of woman who expects him to pay for everything because he was sick of being taken advantage of.
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