Allowing people their own recovery...
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Allowing people their own recovery...
I am posting this in response to things said in my ‘Under Attack but the shields are holding’ thread.
I started this response in that thread but decided it would be better off in its own.
For example my venting as well as sharing was in the form of making a Quackers thread about what was going on right now in my recovery. It gave me a choice to hang out my laundry so to speak and let some fresh air into my head. It was a good way for ME to diffuse a difficult situation. Apparently it hit home with a lot of people because it has been a very active thread.
I have been PM’d by some people who also have problems with this and have seen it in other threads.
I think we all, including me, need to be mindful of what we are posting and how it will affect our brother or sister in recovery. People, especially people new to this site can be impacted by our posts far more than we realize when making our posts. I remember reading in the stickies someplace that when you are using “I” a lot in your post you are sharing your experiences, emotions and support. When the thread contains a lot of “you need” or “you should” then you are trying to run someone else’s recovery for them.
So, what I am taking away from this is the memory of how I and my daughter felt and applying that experience to my posts in the future.
Take what you want and leave the rest
I started this response in that thread but decided it would be better off in its own.
Thank you for that post it means a lot to me. I am handling my detachment with the AW pretty well, still some deep seated anger issues but that's to be expected.
What wobbled me the most were several posts questioning my empathy and compassion. I actually got a call from my daughter, because she found them unsettling also. She told me that she felt like her feelings were being invalidated. We talked for a while and she felt better.
I want to take my time and do this right but I want to start a thread about questioning other peoples motives and feelings especially when they are emotionally vulnerable. This is a therapy site and people do come here to vent and that venting can take many forms.... enough for now.
What wobbled me the most were several posts questioning my empathy and compassion. I actually got a call from my daughter, because she found them unsettling also. She told me that she felt like her feelings were being invalidated. We talked for a while and she felt better.
I want to take my time and do this right but I want to start a thread about questioning other peoples motives and feelings especially when they are emotionally vulnerable. This is a therapy site and people do come here to vent and that venting can take many forms.... enough for now.
I have been PM’d by some people who also have problems with this and have seen it in other threads.
I think we all, including me, need to be mindful of what we are posting and how it will affect our brother or sister in recovery. People, especially people new to this site can be impacted by our posts far more than we realize when making our posts. I remember reading in the stickies someplace that when you are using “I” a lot in your post you are sharing your experiences, emotions and support. When the thread contains a lot of “you need” or “you should” then you are trying to run someone else’s recovery for them.
So, what I am taking away from this is the memory of how I and my daughter felt and applying that experience to my posts in the future.
Take what you want and leave the rest
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Amen Brother.
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ease-read.html
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ease-read.html
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This is like the fourth time in the past 2 months that this has come up. The "play nice" thread. It all goes back to the 'take what you like and leave the rest' category.
Repeating the same thing over and over again and expecting to get a different result.
Recently someone else posted about feeling 'judged' and being afraid to post. That turned into a 'play nice' thread. A couple weeks ago, someone started a thread about being pissed off that some seem to come here and just complain about a situation, and how frustrating it is to read about the same things over and over again, something like that, belittling others for not "getting it" as fast as she did. That turned into a 'play nice' thread. A couple weeks before that, a thread was actually closed due someone being on a such a defensive that she was being judged by others that she in turn started attacking. (I learned alot from that one, mainly that when people post like that, there's usually something else going on with them, and not to take it personally. I know that was the case with my part in it).
There is a thread in the stickies about responding appropriately to posts that trigger you, and reminders about how everyone's recovery is different, and we need to be nice when we post. It's been copied and pasted like three times into recent threads. If something triggers you, wait a few hours before you post, try to remember where you were emotionally when you first came here, everyone has their own journey, words read sound different than words said, yadi yadi yada.
I know what's on my side of the street in this case... all I did was identify with the quacking, and ask a legitimate question, which you answered in a gentlemanly fashion. So i know i'm clean here. This is not about me (this time... I'm sure i've gone wrong somewhere else though, because we all do, we're human). Unfortunately, there is no thingy hooked up to my computer that takes my blood pressure to be sure I only log on to SR when i'm in a shiny and happy mood. To my knowledge, no one has one of those, so it's understandable that some are going to be crabby, judgmental, and abrasive in responses. But it's almost always about them, not you (the OP).
Everyone has read the sticky. Alot of people have read the threads about being pissed and being judged. Some people get it, and some people don't. Starting yet another thread about it isn't going to change the fact that some people are just further along in their recovery than others. Some people will always be judgemental, condescending, controlling jerks, even in recovery. Some people will always want others to do what they think should be done. Like you said, it's easy to pick them out. I am working on that myself, making sure my posts are all about me, and what happened to me, and how it may help you. That's why it is important to take what you like and leave the rest.
A part of me feels like me posting this just feeds the insanity
Repeating the same thing over and over again and expecting to get a different result.
Recently someone else posted about feeling 'judged' and being afraid to post. That turned into a 'play nice' thread. A couple weeks ago, someone started a thread about being pissed off that some seem to come here and just complain about a situation, and how frustrating it is to read about the same things over and over again, something like that, belittling others for not "getting it" as fast as she did. That turned into a 'play nice' thread. A couple weeks before that, a thread was actually closed due someone being on a such a defensive that she was being judged by others that she in turn started attacking. (I learned alot from that one, mainly that when people post like that, there's usually something else going on with them, and not to take it personally. I know that was the case with my part in it).
There is a thread in the stickies about responding appropriately to posts that trigger you, and reminders about how everyone's recovery is different, and we need to be nice when we post. It's been copied and pasted like three times into recent threads. If something triggers you, wait a few hours before you post, try to remember where you were emotionally when you first came here, everyone has their own journey, words read sound different than words said, yadi yadi yada.
I know what's on my side of the street in this case... all I did was identify with the quacking, and ask a legitimate question, which you answered in a gentlemanly fashion. So i know i'm clean here. This is not about me (this time... I'm sure i've gone wrong somewhere else though, because we all do, we're human). Unfortunately, there is no thingy hooked up to my computer that takes my blood pressure to be sure I only log on to SR when i'm in a shiny and happy mood. To my knowledge, no one has one of those, so it's understandable that some are going to be crabby, judgmental, and abrasive in responses. But it's almost always about them, not you (the OP).
Everyone has read the sticky. Alot of people have read the threads about being pissed and being judged. Some people get it, and some people don't. Starting yet another thread about it isn't going to change the fact that some people are just further along in their recovery than others. Some people will always be judgemental, condescending, controlling jerks, even in recovery. Some people will always want others to do what they think should be done. Like you said, it's easy to pick them out. I am working on that myself, making sure my posts are all about me, and what happened to me, and how it may help you. That's why it is important to take what you like and leave the rest.
A part of me feels like me posting this just feeds the insanity
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When the thread contains a lot of “you need” or “you should” then you are trying to run someone else’s recovery for them.
I found that I could take bits and pieces from what worked for others and apply it to my own situation in my own way and at my own pace as I grew more comfortable with it.
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Kitty, no problems.
Its not so much a play nice thread as a don't worry about my side of the street thread. I have and will post my experiences when they are the complete opposite of the OPs. Sharing different experiences and points of view is important to what's going on here.
It was a reminder to all of us, including me, to watch for when we slip from "I did" or "I feel" to "you should" or "you need to".
Your friend,
Its not so much a play nice thread as a don't worry about my side of the street thread. I have and will post my experiences when they are the complete opposite of the OPs. Sharing different experiences and points of view is important to what's going on here.
It was a reminder to all of us, including me, to watch for when we slip from "I did" or "I feel" to "you should" or "you need to".
Your friend,
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You have a good point, jds and this presents quite the conundrum.
Heck, even starting a thread to discuss this can be seen as a codependent behavior. Kittykitty says this is the 4th time this has come up recently. Isn't that the same as trying to tell our Alcoholics the same thing over and over again and wishing they'd change? I say yes.
However, my position on the whole thing is that people posting here are coming from painful situations. They're hurting. They may be new or recovering or well seasoned. I know I for one do not like being asked rhetorical questions. Many times I'm venting and I may be dumping anger or sadness here because I don't have anywhere else to take it. Last thing I want is someone coming along and challenging my core emotions. I could sit here, not post and keep my bottle full of negative thoughts. However, I've been here long enough to trust myself and the recovery I'm working on. I place a ton of trust and respect in the fine people here and I can only ask for the same in return.
Heck, even starting a thread to discuss this can be seen as a codependent behavior. Kittykitty says this is the 4th time this has come up recently. Isn't that the same as trying to tell our Alcoholics the same thing over and over again and wishing they'd change? I say yes.
However, my position on the whole thing is that people posting here are coming from painful situations. They're hurting. They may be new or recovering or well seasoned. I know I for one do not like being asked rhetorical questions. Many times I'm venting and I may be dumping anger or sadness here because I don't have anywhere else to take it. Last thing I want is someone coming along and challenging my core emotions. I could sit here, not post and keep my bottle full of negative thoughts. However, I've been here long enough to trust myself and the recovery I'm working on. I place a ton of trust and respect in the fine people here and I can only ask for the same in return.
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Originally Posted by jds0401 
I'll apologize in advance if this offends anyone....this is definitely a take what you want and leave the rest.
The irony for me is when someone accuses someone of judging them....isn't it true that they judging the other person by saying that? In my book they are - we cannot read or see in other people's heads - sometimes people say things to protect themselves or their recovery, most likely it has nothing to do with anyone except them - if they didn't address you it's probably not about you. Most things are about the person posting and are not about ANYONE else...I read this on an ACOA website, one of our traits is thinking everything is about us (I know I've done it before). Accusing someone of being judgmental is a passive aggressive game many times (I call it playing the victim to diminish the other person - I also read a lot about this on the ACOA website I found).....my mother used to do this all the time - it puts me into a spin, instantly makes me lose my serenity, and makes me angry. I recognize when that happens I need to step away.
There are two sides of every street.
Take what you want and leave the rest.
The irony for me is when someone accuses someone of judging them....isn't it true that they judging the other person by saying that? In my book they are - we cannot read or see in other people's heads - sometimes people say things to protect themselves or their recovery, most likely it has nothing to do with anyone except them - if they didn't address you it's probably not about you. Most things are about the person posting and are not about ANYONE else...I read this on an ACOA website, one of our traits is thinking everything is about us (I know I've done it before). Accusing someone of being judgmental is a passive aggressive game many times (I call it playing the victim to diminish the other person - I also read a lot about this on the ACOA website I found).....my mother used to do this all the time - it puts me into a spin, instantly makes me lose my serenity, and makes me angry. I recognize when that happens I need to step away.
There are two sides of every street.
Take what you want and leave the rest.
It just kind of hit me later that I felt uncomfortable with the direction the thread had taken. I consider my self to be solid in my recovery but to someone new or newer this could have been very much taken in a different light. This lead to several conversations with other people and me feeling like I need to post this thread.
It is simply a reminder that words have a lot of power. Again the focus on I and me rather than you.
Your friend,
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As we write these, someone on another thread is being accused of being an addict, and getting pretty beaten up about it. I find the conversation (other than the accusations and assumptions being thrown) pretty enlightening, and hope the OP keeps coming back, so we can continue it, but I would understand if he didn't. This is definitely an ongoing issue. Detachment seems to be the only way to go, but unfortunately, the newcomers don't know what it is or how to practice it. TWYLALTR doesn't make sense to a newcomer.
jds... absoultely, before I started recovery, EVERYTHING was about me, a reflection on me, or my fault in some way. Totally. ACOA's in the hizz-ouse!
jds... absoultely, before I started recovery, EVERYTHING was about me, a reflection on me, or my fault in some way. Totally. ACOA's in the hizz-ouse!
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When I first came on the site, I was a little shy about posting. I have kind of learned that some people get me and some people don't. Thats the way it is in life. It can probably seem to the people who are actively drinking that the family and friends threads are "beating up on them, accusing, or judging". I kind of took it that this part of the forums was for venting the feelings that we are having about our loved one who is struggling with an addiction. Sometimes my posts are angry or sad, but those are only my feelings about my situation at the time. Sometimes I tell my story, or the story of another close to me who has gone through something similiar including enough details to distinguish for people to find both similiarities and differences in my experiences and theirs. In the end, we are all just humans, looking for comfort and safety. If I run accross something that offends me, I just think "That person doesn't get me" and move on.
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I've been participated in social forums for about ten years now. Some were help/support groups like this one, and others were just social groups that were just for fun and shooting the breeze. The one thing I've learned is to take everyone's opinion with a grain of salt, and not to take things personally.
One thing I've found that helps is to think about the chances I'll ever meet these online persona's in real life. If you think about it, they are just words on a computer screen. That doesn't mean I haven't made wonderful online friends throughout the years, because I have. However the majority, were more like brief acquaintances more than anything. Or like the person I sat next to on a four hour flight I had a good conversation with years ago, that I'll never see again. So when something I see on the computer screen upsets me, I shut it off, walk away and touch something real in my life. I give all three of my dogs a hug and go outside to play with them.
Online communication is tough,there are no facial expressions or tone of voice to gauge another person's real intent behind their words. I myself am a born smart-ass, and have a highly sarcastic attitude. Sometimes it has been taken the wrong way, and other times it's made people laugh so hard they blew soda out their nose. It just depends on whose reading it and how they see it. However, I do try to tone it down as much as I can when I'm new to a group and people don't know me from shinola, like this one. lol
I don't know if this helps or not, I just wanted to share my thoughts on it.
One thing I've found that helps is to think about the chances I'll ever meet these online persona's in real life. If you think about it, they are just words on a computer screen. That doesn't mean I haven't made wonderful online friends throughout the years, because I have. However the majority, were more like brief acquaintances more than anything. Or like the person I sat next to on a four hour flight I had a good conversation with years ago, that I'll never see again. So when something I see on the computer screen upsets me, I shut it off, walk away and touch something real in my life. I give all three of my dogs a hug and go outside to play with them.
Online communication is tough,there are no facial expressions or tone of voice to gauge another person's real intent behind their words. I myself am a born smart-ass, and have a highly sarcastic attitude. Sometimes it has been taken the wrong way, and other times it's made people laugh so hard they blew soda out their nose. It just depends on whose reading it and how they see it. However, I do try to tone it down as much as I can when I'm new to a group and people don't know me from shinola, like this one. lol
I don't know if this helps or not, I just wanted to share my thoughts on it.
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Mike thanks for saying that much better than I could have! I think you have the art of diplomacy figured out better than myself!
I appreciate your courage and honesty to post this and like you I know that there are more than a few people who have shared this same feeling.
And as Shell pointed out, we are all at different stages in our recovery and it's really not helpful to be judged or cajoled into being in a place others think we should be... Sometimes people just need to talk when they are hurting and that's okay.
Take care and thanks for posting this!
I appreciate your courage and honesty to post this and like you I know that there are more than a few people who have shared this same feeling.
And as Shell pointed out, we are all at different stages in our recovery and it's really not helpful to be judged or cajoled into being in a place others think we should be... Sometimes people just need to talk when they are hurting and that's okay.
Take care and thanks for posting this!
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I like all the posts on this thread. I think, overall, people are pretty respectful here (and we have GREAT mods if things ever get a little uncomfortable). Everyone has a bad day or posts something without careful thought once in awhile. Everyone has days whent they are feeling particularly touchy or sensitive, too. Nobody's perfect.
I always PRESUME on this site that people mean well until proven to be actually malicious. And if something strikes me the wrong way, I can ignore it, offlist the person to ask for clarification, or respectfully disagree.
I love us.
I always PRESUME on this site that people mean well until proven to be actually malicious. And if something strikes me the wrong way, I can ignore it, offlist the person to ask for clarification, or respectfully disagree.
I love us.
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Sometimes it's important (to me) for people to cut through ambiguity, and sometimes that's harsh.
For example, one time, long ago, my AH said he didn't want to go to my family function. So I didn't make him go. I figured, he doesn't want to go. But when I was telling this to my EAP counselor at work, she said, "That's unacceptable. You're married. You have a family function. He's your family. They're your family. He goes."
That was kind of a "rule" that was important for me to hear. If she hadn't said it, I would have continued to think that I was a jerk for expecting him to go.
So, I think when people come off being harsh, or judgmental, they may just be trying to impart rules that are going to help the poster, not hurt them.
At the same time, we have to meet people where they are. Because one person did something and it was good for them doesn't make it a "rule."
Mike, I'm not sure if I understood correctly, but do you give access to your posts to your daughter?? Frankly, I clear my internet history all the time so my kids don't see it. I love having the anonymity of this forum, and I need to vent sometimes. My venting may not be in my kids' best interest. I really, really want to be anonymous here.
In any case, let's all be kind to each other while leading them to the truth.
For example, one time, long ago, my AH said he didn't want to go to my family function. So I didn't make him go. I figured, he doesn't want to go. But when I was telling this to my EAP counselor at work, she said, "That's unacceptable. You're married. You have a family function. He's your family. They're your family. He goes."
That was kind of a "rule" that was important for me to hear. If she hadn't said it, I would have continued to think that I was a jerk for expecting him to go.
So, I think when people come off being harsh, or judgmental, they may just be trying to impart rules that are going to help the poster, not hurt them.
At the same time, we have to meet people where they are. Because one person did something and it was good for them doesn't make it a "rule."
Mike, I'm not sure if I understood correctly, but do you give access to your posts to your daughter?? Frankly, I clear my internet history all the time so my kids don't see it. I love having the anonymity of this forum, and I need to vent sometimes. My venting may not be in my kids' best interest. I really, really want to be anonymous here.
In any case, let's all be kind to each other while leading them to the truth.
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Being triggered by a post or person's story is very often where sometimes the responses become less patient or understandng. They bring up our own issues and feelings when we can identify with a person's story.
I also notice on occassion 'dismissive' responses to people's heartfelt questions and confusion. Yes the questions may have codependency and control written all over them but if you are new to having an alcoholic in your life, there is a steep learning curve.
They ask questions because they are so new to the world of an alcoholic (I know I was) and there will always be a few who will quickly dismiss the questions and post a rhetorical 'why do you care?' response. It felt crushing to me early on when I got some of that feedback.
My point is more that even if the questions asked are signs of a person's codependency issues, enabling behavior or dysfunction, there is no such thing as a stupid question to me. That is how we all grow and learn.
(I'm sure I am guilty of it as well so when I see someone trying to understand, I remember how mysterious and confusing at first having an alcoholic in your life can be).
I also notice on occassion 'dismissive' responses to people's heartfelt questions and confusion. Yes the questions may have codependency and control written all over them but if you are new to having an alcoholic in your life, there is a steep learning curve.
They ask questions because they are so new to the world of an alcoholic (I know I was) and there will always be a few who will quickly dismiss the questions and post a rhetorical 'why do you care?' response. It felt crushing to me early on when I got some of that feedback.
My point is more that even if the questions asked are signs of a person's codependency issues, enabling behavior or dysfunction, there is no such thing as a stupid question to me. That is how we all grow and learn.
(I'm sure I am guilty of it as well so when I see someone trying to understand, I remember how mysterious and confusing at first having an alcoholic in your life can be).
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As Kitty said, this is an issue that has repeated itself here. Not just in the last several months, but, for years.
I have been on this forum for a few weeks (look left), I came here because I was at the end of my rope trying to deal with my exabf. There were alot of "old hats" here, those who had experience beyond my thought processes.
Some gave me hugs, some gave me their experience, some directed me, some jumped all over me, and some used humor to prode me. Yet, all had the same common goal, get me well, get me out of an abusive situation. I had to learn how to not let my ego and emotional issues stand in the way of my recovery.
We do not all respond to the same input in the same way. Me, I like dealing my cards straight up, and, I respond to that. Others, like the hugs and smileys, we are all different, and, that is good, life would be more boring than it already is, if, we were all the same.
To me, the bottom line is that we are all here for the same reasons, we are either seeking help, or,we are seeking support or we are wanting to share our experiences and hopefully save others from making the same mistakes we made.
Why? Because we have one thing in common...we all are codependent.
Ok, here is my disclaimer: The above statements represent my opinions only, not those of the sponsers, or anyone else participating on this forum....Lol...
I have been on this forum for a few weeks (look left), I came here because I was at the end of my rope trying to deal with my exabf. There were alot of "old hats" here, those who had experience beyond my thought processes.
Some gave me hugs, some gave me their experience, some directed me, some jumped all over me, and some used humor to prode me. Yet, all had the same common goal, get me well, get me out of an abusive situation. I had to learn how to not let my ego and emotional issues stand in the way of my recovery.
We do not all respond to the same input in the same way. Me, I like dealing my cards straight up, and, I respond to that. Others, like the hugs and smileys, we are all different, and, that is good, life would be more boring than it already is, if, we were all the same.
To me, the bottom line is that we are all here for the same reasons, we are either seeking help, or,we are seeking support or we are wanting to share our experiences and hopefully save others from making the same mistakes we made.
Why? Because we have one thing in common...we all are codependent.
Ok, here is my disclaimer: The above statements represent my opinions only, not those of the sponsers, or anyone else participating on this forum....Lol...
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Originally Posted by SoloMio
Mike, I'm not sure if I understood correctly, but do you give access to your posts to your daughter?? Frankly, I clear my internet history all the time so my kids don't see it. I love having the anonymity of this forum, and I need to vent sometimes. My venting may not be in my kids' best interest. I really, really want to be anonymous here.
In any case, let's all be kind to each other while leading them to the truth.
In any case, let's all be kind to each other while leading them to the truth.
I agree I would not want any non adult children reading this.
Your friend,
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Ah, stir the pot.... memories...
Went to the noon meeting today, and it was about... drumroll please.... judgement!!!!!
I had a breakthrough, that wasn't very pleasant actually. I'm sure it will be good for me in the long run.
Another member talked about social phobia, being afraid to go to a party or large gathering by yourself, dealing with that feeling that everyone will be judging you... I related to this instantly because I used to be the same way, and still am to an extent. I identified with every word... feeling self concious and scared, thinking everyone was going to be looking at me, and making fun of me in their heads. Am I dressed okay, what if I have no one to talk to, what if i say something stupid.
Then he hit me with the big one.
Someone had mentioned to him, perhaps the reason he felt like that was because he judges people, and was anticipating and expecting others to do the same.
Oh dear, the truth hurts.
I still haven't recovered from this.
Went to the noon meeting today, and it was about... drumroll please.... judgement!!!!!
I had a breakthrough, that wasn't very pleasant actually. I'm sure it will be good for me in the long run.
Another member talked about social phobia, being afraid to go to a party or large gathering by yourself, dealing with that feeling that everyone will be judging you... I related to this instantly because I used to be the same way, and still am to an extent. I identified with every word... feeling self concious and scared, thinking everyone was going to be looking at me, and making fun of me in their heads. Am I dressed okay, what if I have no one to talk to, what if i say something stupid.
Then he hit me with the big one.
Someone had mentioned to him, perhaps the reason he felt like that was because he judges people, and was anticipating and expecting others to do the same.
Oh dear, the truth hurts.
I still haven't recovered from this.
A work in progress
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 16,633
Originally Posted by kittykitty
Ah, stir the pot.... memories...
Went to the noon meeting today, and it was about... drumroll please.... judgement!!!!!
I had a breakthrough, that wasn't very pleasant actually. I'm sure it will be good for me in the long run.
Another member talked about social phobia, being afraid to go to a party or large gathering by yourself, dealing with that feeling that everyone will be judging you... I related to this instantly because I used to be the same way, and still am to an extent. I identified with every word... feeling self concious and scared, thinking everyone was going to be looking at me, and making fun of me in their heads. Am I dressed okay, what if I have no one to talk to, what if i say something stupid.
Then he hit me with the big one.
Someone had mentioned to him, perhaps the reason he felt like that was because he judges people, and was anticipating and expecting others to do the same.
Oh dear, the truth hurts.
I still haven't recovered from this.
Went to the noon meeting today, and it was about... drumroll please.... judgement!!!!!
I had a breakthrough, that wasn't very pleasant actually. I'm sure it will be good for me in the long run.
Another member talked about social phobia, being afraid to go to a party or large gathering by yourself, dealing with that feeling that everyone will be judging you... I related to this instantly because I used to be the same way, and still am to an extent. I identified with every word... feeling self concious and scared, thinking everyone was going to be looking at me, and making fun of me in their heads. Am I dressed okay, what if I have no one to talk to, what if i say something stupid.
Then he hit me with the big one.
Someone had mentioned to him, perhaps the reason he felt like that was because he judges people, and was anticipating and expecting others to do the same.
Oh dear, the truth hurts.
I still haven't recovered from this.
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