m1k3

I have to agree with the other posters. When I moved out my wife was starting her 3rd rehab. She was doing that because our daughters said she couldn't see the grandkids until she got better. She still wasn't going because she thought she needed help. Her husband of 36 years is leaving her and she is cut off from her grandkids but she doesn't have a problem.

Your mileage may vary.

Missymum

Saber, I hear so much of my story in yours. I knew my AH was an alcoholic and had 2 children with him. I thought I could be strong and manage. What I didn't have a clue about was the progression of the mental-emotional part of the disease and how I would be sucked into it, consumed by it and become sick myself. I thought I had already seen the worst and could handle it. I don't recognize my AH, myself or our relationship. We've become emotional Frankensteins. Each daynis painful and exhausting. I am only beginning to learn to detach and not engage in the craziness and I have no idea what the future holds. My AH has been sober for over 2 months now but is not recovering in any way. The reasons he drank are still there, unresolved. Without the temporary relief drinking gave him he is miserable and takes it ALL out on me.

I wish you all the best in your work on yourself. Thank you for the generosity of your posts.
Missy

barb dwyer

Hi Saberhead -

Wow!
I'm just getting here and already you've made such progress!

I go to an engineering college and this statement made me smile -

and then this one tugged my heart -

Welcome.
As you've found, there's a wealth of knowledge here
and of first hand experience
that you can draw from
as well as support
as you embark on another very important education.

I'm glad you've already gone to a meeting
and I'm so very glad to see you've a sense of humor
(not exactly common with mathamagicians you know)

humor is the one floatation device
that makes the experience an adventure.

Welcome!

kittykitty

Hi Saber, and welcome!! So glad you found a meeting!

Couple of things I wanted to bring to your attention. and by the way, you can never type too much here...type away..

"He immediently interjected and said that he had been thinking about quitting for a long time but he never had any reason to, and no one to give him a reason." Mine said this too. Manipulation. He's trying to convince you that YOU are in some way shape or form responsible for him getting better. That YOU are his reason. Another one is "i can't do it without you" Bull****.

"He told me that he was adament on quitting and that he would go to AA meetings with me." You are not an alcoholic. The majority of the meetings will be "closed" meetings... only A's can attend. If he really wants to recover, he'll have to fly solo. Here is where you will see the difference between his actions and his words. I would, however, recommend that you do go to a few Open AA meetings, without him, just to get an understanding of what real recovery is, and to learn about the disease. What you learn does not need to be shared with him, it is for your benefit only. I'll bet that someone in your alanon group would be more than happy to go with you, I go to quite a few open aa meetings myself. I'll go with you if you want

"I meant that I would go with him for support" This is a knee jerk reaction for us, for those of us who have been struggling in a relationship with an A. So excited about the prospect that his intentions are genuine, we start to bend over backwards to make things as easy as possible for them. And they will be very quick to take advantage of that.

"I already told him I would forgive him, and so I cant go back on my word now"
You're a good person for thinking this way. But I think you are wrong, just my opinion. Not about forgiving him or not, but about CHANGING YOUR MIND. You can always decide not to so something you said you were going to do, or to DO something you said you weren't going to do. It's called free will. I hope that you never feel forced to do something just because you already said you would, especially if that something makes you feel uncomfortable.

"I plan on following through with what I said. If he has just one beer, Im out the door." This is what we lovingly refer to as a 'boundary'. It's a line in the sand that you draw, to make it known what you will and will not tolerate in a relationship anymore. They are very important, especially when dealing with an active A. Not long ago, there was a thread on here about boundaries, maybe go and take a look at it. Most important thing is, when you draw that line, you have to stick to it, or it's just an idle threat. If they realize you won't stick to it, it will open the door to more lying, manipulation and abuse.

I myself was in a roller coaster relationship with an active a for just over a year. He promised to quit drinking three times, once for each time I threatened to leave. He always started up again. And I always ignored it. He blamed me for his relapses, as well as all the reasons that Pelican mentioned (and I use the term 'relapse' loosely, because in order to relapse i feel you need to be working a recovery program of some sort. He just stopped drinking for a while, but still smoked pot, and took pills). The tears, and begging and pleading for another chance, promises of change, this time I'll really do it... and I fell for it twice. I wanted to believe him. I think he wanted to believe him. But he wasn't willing to go the distance, and truly own the idea of getting better. It was a dance he did to appease me, and keep me around as long as possible.

Everyone has their own journey, their own path. You don't have to make any decisions now, or tomorrow, or the next day, or next month for that matter. No one here will judge you for staying or leaving. When it is time to make a move, you will know. It will be indisputable in your mind, the path that you need to take. It will be revealed to you in God's time. You just have to be willing to see it when He shows it to you.

Until then, keep going to those alanon meetings, i was so elated when I read how much you enjoyed them. If you let them, some of those people (and maybe some of us) will become your best friends, and help you change you life...for the better.

Sending strength and serenity your way.

Justfor1

It definetly sounds like he is an alcoholic. I don't know about your state but in mine a person can get a BUI or Bicycling Under the Influence. It is a very dangerous thing to do. Obviously, not as dangerous as drinking and driving but still dangerous.

sojourner

So Saberhead: Are you doing right by your future children in sticking with this set of behaviors as being their future fathering?

brutus10

I am in the same position as you are. I have been putting myself through this for 4 years......4 years of dreading every single weekend, 4 years of dreading an invite anywhere that there may be beer present, 4 years of fun outings and vacations ruined by drinking, 4 years of worrying and 4 years of resentment and anger building up inside of me. Mine came to a head one month ago. He moved out and back to our hometown. He is worse now surrounded by all the friends and family who used to party with him constantly. I'm realizing through this forum that it more than likely will never change. Not unless he wants it to. There is nothing you or I can do for them. I've taken him to doctors, I've printed out educational material, I've tired raising his self esteem, I've tried tough love and even tried moving him away to show him a better life. Truth is, no matter what I did or how far I moved him, nothing will change until he wants it to. This is a heartbreaking realization and I wish I could run far away like everyone says to but I just can't. Much like you, I feel stuck and torn. I am going to Al-anon soon too. Hopefully, there we will gain the strenght we need to put ourselves first. Good luck to you!!

Saberhead

Thank you everyone for the amazing responses and I am truly glad to be part of a forum where everyone understands what Im going through.

I dont take any offence at all to anyone saying Im wrong about anything, I wholly understand that there are still issues to resolve, things to work out. I know a part of me is being naive, I am trying my best to be logical. Im sure many of you understand that that is difficult. You're not sure where logic is anymore. Its half emotion, half though...and maybe a mix of other things.

So far it's been two days. Hes been moody, keeps saying he's bored. Hes also really quiet. Im trying to give him his space. His biggest problem is he cant sleep. He said he's been sleeping less than 5 hours a night tossing and turning.

I asked him if he was ok this evening and he said he was stressed out about everything. I asked him how he felt and he said he didnt really want to talk about it (his BIGGEST problem). He mentioned that he wants to drink really badly but he wasnt going to. I shrugged and just said "I mean...drink if you want" (mostly out of frustration) and he got a little angry and said "no! No Im not going to, Im going to pull this through".

So as happy as I was that he said he wants to do this, I also know he's just not happy right now. Not really much I can do is there, seeing as how it's not my problem. Still though....

Sometimes I just wish I could be ok with his drinking, and he can drink and be happy and I would be happy and everything would be happy, etc etc. I know thats really bad to say it. I dont actually mean it. It's just a fleeting thought.

But the world doesnt work like that does it.

Saberhead

Call me dense, but Im not exactly sure what you mean here?
Are you asking if staying with this person will be good for a future family? :-/

Saberhead

Thank you kittykitty for this.

Is it entirely impossible though for him to get treated?

I dont think you were trying to imply that he wouldnt, but I juts keep feeling as if everyone is telling me it wont work out. Should I have any optimism at all? Are we really doomed?
This is incredibly difficult for me to accept but I, on the other hand, do understand that yes, these could very well be incredibly empty promises.

Pelican

I wont presume to speak for KittyKitty or other members, but I will speak to you about the odds of his getting better:

based on his actions as of today, the odds are not in his favor.

Nothing changes, if nothing changes.

I had to make lifestyle changes to overcome my addiction. I had to learn new habits to replace the old habits. Otherwise, when my body/mind/spirit cried out for what it needed - I couldnt resist. Without tools to fight the addiction, I was powerless to control the urges. Addiction, especially alcoholism, affects the entire physical body. Alcohol penetrates every cell, it can even pass the blood/brain barrier. Not many substances are that penetrating.

Alcohol addiction is not the same as stopping a bad habit like cursing. I couldn't just put a dollar in the swear jar each time I slipped up. I couldn't put a dollar in the swear jar each time I had a craving, and hope it would go away.

I had to want a different lifestyle so much that I was willing to do anything to achieve it. (that's in my signature line)

I would say, based on my personal experience, if your abf is walking around all 'grumpy gus' and not reaching out for information or support; odds are not in his favor.

Lilygirl7

Wow Saber. I too am new to this and your post was the first one I read. I was shocked because every line you typed felt like it had come from my mind. I am 26 and have been engaged to an active for almost 3 years (can you guess why I keep postponing the wedding?). I also dread the social invitations because I am fully aware of the impending outcome. I have also tried the reverse psychology method only to wind up feeling more guilty because I somehow "allowed" him to drink.

Your description really hit home because I find myself wondering how things can be so good sober, and so bad when he drinks. I can't seem to bring myself to let him go even though I know it would be the healthiest thing for me to do. Tonight is the first night we have spent apart in 5 years and it is sooooo hard. But at what point do we care about ourselves enough to step back and realize what is best for us? We want to help the user so badly, why can't we do the same for us? I have the deepest respect for you in taking it upon yourself to go to alanon! And your writings about the joy you felt from that meeting have encouraged me to attend my first.

Clearly you are a young intelligent woman and you deserve happiness. And I hope that happiness can be shared with this man you love. But don't feel guilty for wanting what you know deep down is best for you. Now if I could only take my own advice :-). I wish you luck and I thank you for writing from the bottom of my heart.

zanido1991

I do know what you are going through. I am in a similiar type situation with someone I met a few months ago. I am always really nervous when we go out because he drinks a lot. On my brithday he drank $60 worth of alcohol and then refused to pay his tab because he didn't remember drinking that much. After arguing with the bartender for about 15 minutes at a restaraunt/bar I sing karaoke at every week I demanded that he get his debit card out. I took it to the bar and payed the tab. I felt sick and ashamed. He has numerous times passed out on to the floor at public places or he can't walk so I have to throw him into the car. After a 30 pk of beer and shots, who would be able to walk. I am trying to detach now and it is killing me. Even after all those crazy scenes and feeling helpless most of the time, my life is sad lonely and barren without him in it. So I do understand. But you can't save him anymore than I can save the man I love. My advice is to set measurable goals for yourself that involve anything but your ABF and concentrate on those. Don't give up, just start distancing yourself gradually and see if he notices. His life won't be so cushy without you picking up the pieces for him. I know its hard but keep coming back here and talking to your support group. It is helping me.

sojourner

Saberhead: What is the purpose of single young people to date?

In the end, the purpose is to find a marriage partner, a helpmate, the future father of your unborn children. It's like a job interview, and dating is the probation period. What qualifications for these roles are you looking for? What qualifications in a man have you decided to stay away from?

Your unborn children are depending on you right now to choose wisely and intelligently. They need a dependable father, a kind man, a man who is not entrenched in alcohol or drug abuse.

Look at this man you are with right now through the eyes of a small child. Keep your emotions out of it. Keep your hopes out of it. Perhaps when you are with him at a social gathering and there are small children around, watch and see how those children react when he doing his bad behavior. Perhaps you could read your original post but also imagine a small child is also witnessing it. Perhaps you could get an idea of what small children experience in the presence of the behavior of a substance abuser, high or not high. Again, your future children are depending on you to be wise and intelligent as you choose their future father.

kittykitty

I hate to tell you this honey, but you're asking the same question over and over again, looking for the answer you want to hear.

No one will tell you, yes he will get better, or no he won't. Because none of us have gotten our crystal ball certification yet. All we can share with you is what it was like for us, what happened, and what it is like for us now. And many of us, including me, have had the same conversations, almost ver batum, with our A's. We've heard the same responses, verbatum (they aren't very creative). We've been there, and seen where things go. We know the signs of manipulation, fake recovery, and denial. Most of us know these now because we came here, or to Alanon, for support and understanding with the same questions you did, and now we are giving you the same answers we got. It's how the cycle works.

How many meetings has he been to? Has he even looked for the locations and times yet? (him, not you. He's a big boy, and if he truly wants recovery he will seek it out himself, not ask you to do the research for him. This is what we mean when we say watch his actions) Most places have AA meetings numerous times a day, others at least have a phone number of someone to call, and they'll meet you for coffee or something until you can find a meeting. But almost everywhere I have been (i've been traveling the country recently and finding AA and Alanon everywhere I go) has at least one a day. So he should have been to 2 already, right?

More importantly, have you found an Alanon meeting yet?

"I shrugged and just said "I mean...drink if you want""
The other day you told him if he drinks one beer, you are out the door. Now you are telling him to drink if he wants. You can't do this and expect him to take anything you say seriously. You can't have it both ways, and I guarantee this will come back at you. When he DOES pick up a beer he will lovingly remind you that you told him he could. (when my ex quit drinking, he upped the amt of pot he smoked. Once I made a casula comment, that he might as well go back to drinking beer, because he was high all the time anyways and beer was cheaper than pot. Next day he was drinking again, 'you told me to'. And i couldn't argue with him, because I did.
So the "one beer and I'm leaving" is kind of off the table now, unless you clarify this for him. Doesn't matter how sarcastic you say it, in his mind, you just gave him the go ahead to drink.

I wished that I could be okay with xabf drinking too. I told myself so many times, "he only does it once in a while, if I could just tolerate it things would be great, maybe i need to lighten up a bit, maybe things won't get worse with him, he'll be happy having a couple of beers". But deep down I knew that I simply wanted more out of a relationship. I want a committed partner who can be there for me mind, body, and soul. I want a loving and caring man, not part of the time, but all of the time, to help me raise my future children. I want someone who appreciates the value of life and how precious it is, and knows how lucky he is to be sharing that life with someone like me. That is what I want, and I WILL NOT SETTLE FOR LESS. And neither should you, or TC, or PinturaBella, or Getting By, or Brutus, or Lilygirl, or any of us (you too Mike).

Jadmack25

Quote...((( he said "You do enable me because that night I drank all the beers when I was on the phone you just laughed at me!! Why didnt you tell me how stupid I was?" I cant tell if this is him crying out for help.)))

This is NOT a cry for help. This is manipulation and putting the blame on to you for HIS actions. It is called quacking, which is a lot of noisy gobbledy **** aimed at partners and friends of A's, and which makes absolutely no damned sense to us who cop it.

As for his remarks about thinking of quitting and going to AA.....see above quote on quacking.

Keep doing what YOU need for YOU, continue Alanon and learning all you can, because you have only seen the tip of the alcohol addiction iceberg and there's plenty more still to come.

LaPinturaBella

I know this is hard. Can he get treated? Yes. Will he? Maybe. Maybe not. Depends on if he wants it. There are many people on this forum who are RAs. Who have succeeded. Personally, I think every last one of them is an inspiration and deserves acknowledgement for their achievements. It is a MONUMENTAL undertaking to recover. These people succeeded because THEY WANTED RECOVERY. THEY WORKED THEIR BUTTS OFF TO GET IT. THEY CONTINUE TO WORK THEIR BUTTS OFF EVERY SINGLE SOLITARY DAY TO MAINTAIN AND ADVANCE THEIR RECOVERY. And every last one of them did it for themselves. Read their stories in the Success Stories board on this site.

That said, you can't do anything to get him to the point that he wants it. From the things you've quoted him as saying to date, all I see is him talking. I don't see him getting off his ass, putting down the bottle and getting himself to an AA meeting or checking himself into a rehab center. And until he does these things, it really is nothing more than quacking and manipulation to get you to stick around and to continue to enable him so he can continue his affair with the love of his life...the bottle in his hand.

I know this sounds harsh, but you need to stop thinking about what's best for him and start thinking about what's best for you. Is this what you think a loving, caring,mutually supportive relationship looks like? Is this what you want for the rest of your life? Aren't you worth a relationship that is mature, real, supportive and joyous??? These are the things you need to focus on. Let him focus on him. You are not his mother. You are not is jailer. You are not his creator. You are his girlfriend. But the dynamic as you've described it is not being supportive. This is being damaging because you are robbing him of his right to live his life as he sees fit. If you don't agree with his choices, you have two choices. A) Accept him as he is this moment and live with it without complaint. B) Decide this is not what you want, realize love isn't a cure all and go get what you do want in a relationship. It really is that simple...difficult to do, but that simple.

Take what you want and leave the rest.

Freedom1990

The drinking isn't the problem, it's a symptom.

Alcoholism...I, Self, Me. There is the problem.

My disease is threefold-physical, mental/emotional, and spiritual. I must address all three areas in order to have any quality recovery in my life.

Right now you have a dry drunk who's irritable and uncomfortable in his own skin.

That doesn't magically go away.

How much insanity are you willing to sign up for because I haven't read any indication he's serious about real recovery?

Ladybug0130

If you stay with him, you will end up isolated from others because going out with him will become too stressful. Who wants a life where you can't even go to a barbecue without worrying and watching him all night? Also, this problem tends to get worse and now it is mostly in social situations but it will likely progress where he drinks in other situations too. I met my AH when he was 28 and he really liked to drink but it was more of a partying type thing. By 38 it was a passing out in the basement after drinking a bottle of vodka alone every night at 7:00 pm type of thing. By 40 it was a belligerently drunk yelling at our little kids to stop being so noisy with their friends type of thing. Keep reading this forum, it is a good place to learn a lot about this disease.

m1k3

Saberhead, I KNEW when I had reached the breaking point. It was the point when my recovery became the most important thing in my life. When the pain became so great that I had to change, it didn't matter what anyone else did.

This is a good starting point. Read this thread and see how much of it is familiar to you.

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ldnt-know.html

Your friend,