A Grey(?) Area
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Join Date: May 2011
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Originally Posted by lillamy 
And isn't marriage supposed to be a two-way street? Is she feeling your pain when she's guilting you into doing things you don't want to. Is she empathizing with your children when she's holding them hostage?
I'm a Bible-thumping Christian, too. I spent years doing what I thought God would have me do: Save my marriage. What I finally figured out that when I thought I was being a godly wife, all I did was being proud: I wasn't going to admit that my husband's alcoholism was beyond what I was capable of handling. I was displaying pride, the original sin, when I was staying in an alcoholic marriage being a martyr, look at me, look what a good Christian woman I am, look what I am capable of putting up with, not like the rest of those slackers who leave their marriages for no good reason whatsoever...
So... ask yourself, when you wonder about whether you're being a good husband -- is she being a good wife? Or did she already break the marriage contract?
I'm a Bible-thumping Christian, too. I spent years doing what I thought God would have me do: Save my marriage. What I finally figured out that when I thought I was being a godly wife, all I did was being proud: I wasn't going to admit that my husband's alcoholism was beyond what I was capable of handling. I was displaying pride, the original sin, when I was staying in an alcoholic marriage being a martyr, look at me, look what a good Christian woman I am, look what I am capable of putting up with, not like the rest of those slackers who leave their marriages for no good reason whatsoever...
So... ask yourself, when you wonder about whether you're being a good husband -- is she being a good wife? Or did she already break the marriage contract?
This morning I decided to turn to the Bible and see what guidance I could get from there. The passage that I came to was Ephesians 5:25-27.
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her; 26 that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she should be holy and blameless.
I looked on the internet for someone to tell me what that meant. I came across this article:
bible.org/article/love-your-wife-sacrificially-ephesians-525-27
The key statement this guy makes is this:
"Sacrifice is risking life and limb to move into your wife’s life even though it means you are going to get hurt in the process."
So at least in part, I'm doing the right thing. I'm talking to her and trying to get her to tell me what is on her mind, even though it is painful (for example: finding out she now thinks I can't stand her in public).
I see the one-sided nature of this as someone has mentioned. I see that we should be able to go to social events and BOTH of us be considerate of one another's feelings. I see that we should be able to go to social events and NOT have it involve alcohol. I see this because of the help and kind words you all have given me thus far. I also see it because I keep putting the gloves and going back into the ring, take a few hits, maybe help her a little, and come back to the corner with more intel. This is what God would have me do: love her in spite of her. This I will not stop doing.
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Remember a few verses back there?
The "submit to one another" is key here, as I see it.
I think that the curious thing about addiction is that "helping" is something other than what we think it is. Here's how I think about it in religious terms:
God has a way planned out for me. If I choose to ignore God's leading, and go astray -- he doesn't send lightning and thunder from above and zap me to get me to behave. He doesn't nag, beg, cajole, bribe. You know what he does? He takes a step back, lets me make my mistakes, and lets me deal with the consequences of my actions. And he stays there, waiting, and ready for me to come back to him when I understand that my way was really not what I wanted after all.
In a way, that's what we need to do, too, when we're dealing with addicts. What with a normal person would constitute "help" just causes further hurt. What we do when we "help" an addict is prevent them from having to deal with the consequences of their actions. We rob them of their God-given right to exercise their free will and walk in the path of their choosing. We rob them of their chance to fall on their faces and humbly come back to God.
It's difficult. It's hard. And you don't have to stop loving someone to detach from them and let them learn their lessons on their own. In fact, sometimes, letting people learn from their mistakes without interfering is what loving them is all about.
Take care of yourself.
21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
I think that the curious thing about addiction is that "helping" is something other than what we think it is. Here's how I think about it in religious terms:
God has a way planned out for me. If I choose to ignore God's leading, and go astray -- he doesn't send lightning and thunder from above and zap me to get me to behave. He doesn't nag, beg, cajole, bribe. You know what he does? He takes a step back, lets me make my mistakes, and lets me deal with the consequences of my actions. And he stays there, waiting, and ready for me to come back to him when I understand that my way was really not what I wanted after all.
In a way, that's what we need to do, too, when we're dealing with addicts. What with a normal person would constitute "help" just causes further hurt. What we do when we "help" an addict is prevent them from having to deal with the consequences of their actions. We rob them of their God-given right to exercise their free will and walk in the path of their choosing. We rob them of their chance to fall on their faces and humbly come back to God.
It's difficult. It's hard. And you don't have to stop loving someone to detach from them and let them learn their lessons on their own. In fact, sometimes, letting people learn from their mistakes without interfering is what loving them is all about.
Take care of yourself.
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Litchfield Park, AZ
Posts: 319
Benjaime:
You mis-posted a reply to this thread on another thread and talked about your own "addictions." You also mentioned that you'd tried a 12-step program and felt that you weren't successful.
Would you like to share a little bit about that?
You mis-posted a reply to this thread on another thread and talked about your own "addictions." You also mentioned that you'd tried a 12-step program and felt that you weren't successful.
Would you like to share a little bit about that?
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Join Date: Dec 2008
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Originally Posted by BenJamine
She often chain-drinks wine or beer and becomes what I call subtly tyrannical, holding me or the kids hostage to something she wants to do (e.g. control the TV, make me take her gambling until all hours of the night under the threat of her being mad at me if I don't, making me buy her more wine under the same threat, etc.). And when she says mad, she means "make my life miserable."
Originally Posted by BenJamine
So I just stand there, or sit there, exhausted, while I wait for her to get done while I worry that the kids are ok at home (teenager and special needs tween).
Do you also believe that it is being a good, Christian father to leave your two youngsters home alone at night in order to appease your wife? I am by no means suggesting that you divorce your wife. Your relationship with her is your business. I do not know what your own addiction issues may be. I would humbly ask you to think about the health and welfare of your children. They are not adults and cannot fend for themselves. Your wife is an adult and the consequences of her actions are her responsibility.
I'm a Presbyterian woman married to a devout Roman Catholic. When we were married we promised to be true to one another (without having to stand over one another to make sure we were each being faithful), in good times and bad, in sickness and in health, to love, honor, and cherish one another. Again, this works both ways. Is your wife loving, honoring, and cherishing you or your family?
I hope that you will stick around, keep reading, keep educating yourself on this dance between the addict and the codependent. You, your wife, and your children will be in my prayers.
HG
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Litchfield Park, AZ
Posts: 319
Following up
I asked about your reference to your own 12 step program, because it was mentioned in passing while your focus was really on your wife's problems. In another post you referred to your own addictions which inspired me to circle back around to that.
Speaking strictly from my own experience: I partied right along with my wife, until I couldn't keep up anymore...and even then I continued to use alcohol to manage my own doubts and fears and insecurities. I quit drinking when my wife went through rehab and only then realized how much of a crutch and a roadblock alcohol had been in my own life.
What I continually hear in Al-Anon is that we need to keep the focus on ourselves. I really think that before you can help your wife, you need to help yourself. Help is out there. When I finally got so frustrated with my life that I had no choice but to let go...that's when I finally asked for help. I asked for help for my wife, but I found help for myself. And then, as they say, that's when the miracles started to happen.
Best wishes for your recovery.
Speaking strictly from my own experience: I partied right along with my wife, until I couldn't keep up anymore...and even then I continued to use alcohol to manage my own doubts and fears and insecurities. I quit drinking when my wife went through rehab and only then realized how much of a crutch and a roadblock alcohol had been in my own life.
What I continually hear in Al-Anon is that we need to keep the focus on ourselves. I really think that before you can help your wife, you need to help yourself. Help is out there. When I finally got so frustrated with my life that I had no choice but to let go...that's when I finally asked for help. I asked for help for my wife, but I found help for myself. And then, as they say, that's when the miracles started to happen.
Best wishes for your recovery.
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: South Texas, USA
Posts: 827
Wow, Ben,
You sure do have a lot to think about. I am a Christian, too. I want to be this woman: Psalms 31:10-26.
I hope your wife wants that for herself, too, because I could see how that may work in your marriage.
Free will is part of the story of love God gives us.
Have you considered marriage counseling through your church? I'm pretty sure "Seek wise counsel" is also something you would do. Wise counsel can be found here at SR, most definitely. My church has wise counsel. And part of that wise counsel, for me, has been to seek out Al-anon. Boy, am I glad I did!
You sure do have a lot to think about. I am a Christian, too. I want to be this woman: Psalms 31:10-26.
I hope your wife wants that for herself, too, because I could see how that may work in your marriage.
Free will is part of the story of love God gives us.
Have you considered marriage counseling through your church? I'm pretty sure "Seek wise counsel" is also something you would do. Wise counsel can be found here at SR, most definitely. My church has wise counsel. And part of that wise counsel, for me, has been to seek out Al-anon. Boy, am I glad I did!
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Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 8
Originally Posted by mattmathews
I asked about your reference to your own 12 step program, because it was mentioned in passing while your focus was really on your wife's problems. In another post you referred to your own addictions which inspired me to circle back around to that.
Speaking strictly from my own experience: I partied right along with my wife, until I couldn't keep up anymore...and even then I continued to use alcohol to manage my own doubts and fears and insecurities. I quit drinking when my wife went through rehab and only then realized how much of a crutch and a roadblock alcohol had been in my own life.
What I continually hear in Al-Anon is that we need to keep the focus on ourselves. I really think that before you can help your wife, you need to help yourself. Help is out there. When I finally got so frustrated with my life that I had no choice but to let go...that's when I finally asked for help. I asked for help for my wife, but I found help for myself. And then, as they say, that's when the miracles started to happen.
Best wishes for your recovery.
Speaking strictly from my own experience: I partied right along with my wife, until I couldn't keep up anymore...and even then I continued to use alcohol to manage my own doubts and fears and insecurities. I quit drinking when my wife went through rehab and only then realized how much of a crutch and a roadblock alcohol had been in my own life.
What I continually hear in Al-Anon is that we need to keep the focus on ourselves. I really think that before you can help your wife, you need to help yourself. Help is out there. When I finally got so frustrated with my life that I had no choice but to let go...that's when I finally asked for help. I asked for help for my wife, but I found help for myself. And then, as they say, that's when the miracles started to happen.
Best wishes for your recovery.
When I joined the program, it sounded great. But it will only work if you have sponsors. I am in such a small area that there aren't decent sponsors that will stick around. Once they do the steps and get a year of sobriety, they're gone. So our meetings turned into mostly just sharing how we had acted out the last week (just to "get it out there"). That was just a bunch of bologna. No help at all. When I did have a sponsor, I couldn't bring myself to call them at all hours of the day or night. When I did one or two times, they blew me off. I suppose it works really good for Alcoholism, but not my particular brand of drug.
But there are lots of wise people attending al-anon and so forth so I still respect everyone's advice, suggestions, and appreciate the concern.
So here's a little update. She's decided to go grocery shopping without me today. We've spent "enough" time together this weekend, she says. That really hurts and scares me. I wish I'd never said anything. I want things back the way they were. I'd rather just suck it up than go through this.
It sounds all straight forward and easy when you read these boards, but living it is much, much, harder and different.
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: South Texas, USA
Posts: 827
Originally Posted by BenJamine
So here's a little update. She's decided to go grocery shopping without me today. We've spent "enough" time together this weekend, she says. That really hurts and scares me. I wish I'd never said anything. I want things back the way they were. I'd rather just suck it up than go through this.
It sounds all straight forward and easy when you read these boards, but living it is much, much, harder and different.
It sounds all straight forward and easy when you read these boards, but living it is much, much, harder and different.
If she uses her solo trips as weapons against you somehow, that's one thing. If she's using the time to find a way to feed her addiction, there is no way any micro-management on ANYone's part will stop her.
If it's the Devil You Know vs. the Devil You Don't Know argument, then what's the difference, you're still dealing with the Devil.
Present
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: "Happy Rock" (Gladstone) Oregon
Posts: 1,360
Originally Posted by lillamy
Remember a few verses back there?
The "submit to one another" is key here, as I see it.
I think that the curious thing about addiction is that "helping" is something other than what we think it is. Here's how I think about it in religious terms:
God has a way planned out for me. If I choose to ignore God's leading, and go astray -- he doesn't send lightning and thunder from above and zap me to get me to behave. He doesn't nag, beg, cajole, bribe. You know what he does? He takes a step back, lets me make my mistakes, and lets me deal with the consequences of my actions. And he stays there, waiting, and ready for me to come back to him when I understand that my way was really not what I wanted after all.
In a way, that's what we need to do, too, when we're dealing with addicts. What with a normal person would constitute "help" just causes further hurt. What we do when we "help" an addict is prevent them from having to deal with the consequences of their actions. We rob them of their God-given right to exercise their free will and walk in the path of their choosing. We rob them of their chance to fall on their faces and humbly come back to God.
It's difficult. It's hard. And you don't have to stop loving someone to detach from them and let them learn their lessons on their own. In fact, sometimes, letting people learn from their mistakes without interfering is what loving them is all about.
Take care of yourself.
The "submit to one another" is key here, as I see it.
I think that the curious thing about addiction is that "helping" is something other than what we think it is. Here's how I think about it in religious terms:
God has a way planned out for me. If I choose to ignore God's leading, and go astray -- he doesn't send lightning and thunder from above and zap me to get me to behave. He doesn't nag, beg, cajole, bribe. You know what he does? He takes a step back, lets me make my mistakes, and lets me deal with the consequences of my actions. And he stays there, waiting, and ready for me to come back to him when I understand that my way was really not what I wanted after all.
In a way, that's what we need to do, too, when we're dealing with addicts. What with a normal person would constitute "help" just causes further hurt. What we do when we "help" an addict is prevent them from having to deal with the consequences of their actions. We rob them of their God-given right to exercise their free will and walk in the path of their choosing. We rob them of their chance to fall on their faces and humbly come back to God.
It's difficult. It's hard. And you don't have to stop loving someone to detach from them and let them learn their lessons on their own. In fact, sometimes, letting people learn from their mistakes without interfering is what loving them is all about.
Take care of yourself.
You know how sometimes, you read something and it sings to you? It makes a beautiful sound that sooths the soul? When I read your post here, Lillamy, it did just that. Thank you so much.
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: rural west
Posts: 1,375
Hi, Welcome!
Regardless of whether you decide to stay or go in your relationship, this board offers encouragement for you to take your life back.
You have mentioned what your wife "makes" you do. You have mentioned feeling like a hostage.
She can't make you do anything.
If you are feeling like a hostage, you have to get yourself out of that hostage situation. I don't mean the marriage. I mean that particular situation.
You don't like going to watch her gamble? Don't go.
You don't like that she flirts while she drinks and gambles?
That is HER choice. You can't force her to be different than how she chooses to be and if she doesn't want help to stop, she won't.
You can work on accepting her as she is. Loving her as she is.
If you can't love and accept her choices, that is another thing you have to work out with you and God.
What you can do is take back your life.
Make sure your kids are safe.
Make sure you are being treated right.
Make sure you are not doing anything you don't want to.
Her choices are then up to her.
You matter. Your needs and wants matter.
We're here.
peace
Regardless of whether you decide to stay or go in your relationship, this board offers encouragement for you to take your life back.
You have mentioned what your wife "makes" you do. You have mentioned feeling like a hostage.
She can't make you do anything.
If you are feeling like a hostage, you have to get yourself out of that hostage situation. I don't mean the marriage. I mean that particular situation.
You don't like going to watch her gamble? Don't go.
You don't like that she flirts while she drinks and gambles?
That is HER choice. You can't force her to be different than how she chooses to be and if she doesn't want help to stop, she won't.
You can work on accepting her as she is. Loving her as she is.
If you can't love and accept her choices, that is another thing you have to work out with you and God.
What you can do is take back your life.
Make sure your kids are safe.
Make sure you are being treated right.
Make sure you are not doing anything you don't want to.
Her choices are then up to her.
You matter. Your needs and wants matter.
We're here.
peace
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 10,944
I'm sorry to hear you are having a rough time, Ben. I'm sorry that it scares you that your wife is going to the grocery store alone. It seems like such an innocuous thing. My husband and I take turns running errands sometimes......why does this particular trip fill you with fear and worry?
Continued prayers for peace and serenity, HG
Continued prayers for peace and serenity, HG
Present
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: "Happy Rock" (Gladstone) Oregon
Posts: 1,360
Originally Posted by BenJamine
So here's a little update. She's decided to go grocery shopping without me today. We've spent "enough" time together this weekend, she says. That really hurts and scares me. I wish I'd never said anything. I want things back the way they were. I'd rather just suck it up than go through this.
It sounds all straight forward and easy when you read these boards, but living it is much, much, harder and different.
It sounds all straight forward and easy when you read these boards, but living it is much, much, harder and different.
BTW - anyone on the boards knows it is anything BUT straightforward... and certainly NOT easy.
What I see on the boards, I call, "Back to the Basics." It's easy to get complicated and stressed for me. When I get Back to the Basics, things get more clear.
I have my own set of five things I "check in on myself for" in order to make the best decisions for my highest good:
1) Eat enough healthy food
2) Get enough exercise
3) Drink enough water
4) Get enough sleep
5) Get enough time alone to meditate, to listen to HP on the inner planes
When I am in balance in these five things, my life is better.
For me, the Al-Anon HALT runs parallel to my "Big Five."
HALT is: Don't make any decisions or get in any discussions with my AH when I am
Hungry,
Angry,
Lonely or
Tired.
I hope you come back and check in. In my experience, ignoring the situation does not make it go away.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 204
I don't know what 12 step you went to, but since you are a Christian you might check to see if they have Celebrate Recovery near you. I have a wonderful meeting I go to in Indiana and although I am not historically that religious, it has actually done a lot for me and my eight year-old son too in the six months we have gone there. They have a children's ministry too that has been great. Whatever works for you is great, just thought I'd throw that out there if you've never heard of it. If that's the one you had a bad experience with, I am sorry!
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 6,262
The problem isn't incompatibility, staying home, working, lifestyle.
The problem is alcohol. Because they're in denial about being unable to control alcohol most will blame it on something external. But the truth is alcoholics get drunk because they drink.
Al-anon is a terrific program that teaches us that we are powerless over other people and we must take care of ourselves. There are terrific tools and it helps a great deal to be around people who are in the same situation.
The problem is alcohol. Because they're in denial about being unable to control alcohol most will blame it on something external. But the truth is alcoholics get drunk because they drink.
Al-anon is a terrific program that teaches us that we are powerless over other people and we must take care of ourselves. There are terrific tools and it helps a great deal to be around people who are in the same situation.
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