Old 05-22-2011, 12:46 PM
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Things had been going well for a few days. Having fun together, we even kissed (this hadn't happened in a while). He got a job interview, was actively looking for a sponsor. I was feeling better.

Friday we went to go pick up SD, and his hand was on my leg. I asked him to move it so I could stretch out. His took his hand away but got quiet. I asked why and he said that he thought I didn't want him touching me. I said to him "no, your hand was just on my leg and I wanted to stretch out and couldn't do it with it there."

Thought it was done with until he was still quiet after our friends left on Friday night. I asked him what was up ... his feelings were still hurt from the hand thing. I explained again that it had nothing to do with me wanting his hand there or not wanting it there. I just wanted to stretch out. He seemed to get it.

Fast forward to Saturday and he's snappy and barely talking to me. I finally just ignore it and go on with my day. I get home last night from a wedding shower and am going about my business. "Are you mad at me?" he asks. "No, just feel like I'm walking on eggshells with you so I'm doing my own thing." He walks away and barely talks to me for the rest of the night. I said a few things here and there, but it was pretty evident he didn't want to converse much.

This morning more of the same. I finally said "what is up?" and he quickly followed with "I wasn't going to tell you, but ..." I started to walk away and he said "after the hand thing, I was dissecting it all" and then he told me he was hurt from that, but then understood, but it led to how he had said "I love you" three times and I hadn't said it back all within a 24-hour period.

The only one I even know about is he texted me "I love you" on Friday, but I couldn't respond as I was in meetings all day. No clue on the other ones.

The fact that I'm even spending time *thinking* about this is infuriating to me. It's even more infuriating that everything was going relatively OK and then all of a sudden I just want to stretch out my effing legs and it turns the weekend upside-down in his eyes.

Was proud of myself though -- I did have a good weekend. Wedding shower was fun. Saw a movie today (haven't done that in forever). Now I'm still just thinking WTF though.

Thanks for letting my share my frustrations.

I hate the chaos.
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Old 05-22-2011, 02:11 PM
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Hon, I hope you know this: all he is doing is typical A's manipulation.
Is he a child or a grown up man?
If you dance the way he plays your not doing any favors to either him or yourself.
Take care
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Old 05-22-2011, 02:27 PM
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Do you think they are always aware of their manipulation?

Which part is manipulation?

I ask seriously ... I always anticipate people being honest. Bites me in the booty.
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Old 05-22-2011, 03:02 PM
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He just wants you where he wants you, meaning he wants you to feel guity for hurting him, so you'd go out of your way to make him feel good, not think about what makes you feel good and than he can do whatever he wants to do, and you'd still be there whenever he needs you, as you need him to know you dind't mean to hurt him, you want him to know you love him. So he has you busy proving your love and he doesn't have to do a thing to prove his to you, and you're so preocupied thinking about what he needs that you don't even think about asking for what you need.

All of it is manipulation IMHO. Healthy relationships don't work that way. Sometimes I need to go out of my way to prove my son that I love him, to make him feel safe, but my son is 7. Grown man acting in a way: You dind't tell me you love me, and blah, blah, blah, I mean come on, what is going on there?

I don't mean to be harsh at all, I'm just saying how I see it, and it took me years to figure this one out.
As, same as you, it never used to cross my mind that someone might not be honest. Guess what? Most people aren't. A's especially. Why? Because being honest would mean they would have to take responsibility for their actions. And they don't want to do that, because if they did they wouldn't have the addiction problem in the first place.
I personally believe alcoholism is always a symptom of some psycological issues person is unable to deal with, and until those issues are solved there is no much hope for person to become responsibile and honest.
A's manipulate not because they mean ill, but because that is the way the learned it works for them to get what they want. They simpy can not do better, they don't know how.
I don't know anything about your personal situation or about your A, I'm just stating things in general, that I found to be true in my life and in lives of many other people who are dealing with their A's.
The only advice i can give you at this time (if you're asking for one) is: Is make sure you don't mistake A problems for relationship problems (that is the another one that had me stuck for years), once you separate the two things become much more easier to understand.
I hope this answers your question.
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Old 05-22-2011, 07:31 PM
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sesh--one question--could you clarify for me how you differentiated relationship problems with alcoholic problems? this is something that is always so hard for me to figure out... coz when As get backed in the corner they throw everything at you "i dont like you" "im not attracted to you" "i dont want to be in a relationship" etc.... i mean is that alcoholic or relationship? obviously it ended up being the end of the relationship, but what's an example you have that clearly puts them in separate corners?
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Old 05-22-2011, 07:42 PM
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Oh you described my world. May not be the hand thing but it so many things just like it. Never know when I will do or say something that AH takes the wrong way. God forbid I actually have a bad day and do something that isn't very nice, the whole world comes crashing down. I have said many times I am not allow to make a mistake or have a bad day.

I too have trouble understanding what is the real them and what drinking does to the real them. What is a plain relationship problem vs. problems due to alcoholism? We tried MC for that with an addiction specialist and bottom line the addict needs to find recovery before you can work on the relationship issues.

Blahhh just getting tired of it all. I want a NORMAL life! I love my AH and I would do anything to make our relationship work but there is only so much one person can take before they need to move on for their own sanity.
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Old 05-22-2011, 07:56 PM
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I hear the comments here, and understand them. Yes, protect yourself and make sure you are healthy. I also offer compassion as an ingredient. You are working on your relationship, yourself, he is working on himself, and this is of course a process.

Yes, it certainly might be manipulation or something of the like. It might also be vulnerability, and his own demons taking over. If it's isolated, or leads to him being better, open (truly open) and he's getting better, etc. -- then see where it goes.

Be very careful where this goes. If it's the first step in a pattern, then yes, treat it as such.
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Old 05-22-2011, 08:19 PM
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Hi Putmeontheair,

This has more to do about him than you. You know that the whole episode was completely unecessary. IMO - I suspect he is having trouble with low self esteem issues and craving love and attention. One small thing such as moving a hand has blown up to 'you dont love me and you are pushing me away' in his mind. He will have his own internal dialogue happening and this is likely to be very warped.

My alcoholic is very immature when it comes to arguing, so there is just no point in attempting to discuss anything. It took me a long time to figure this out. Unfortunately, there is always something that I need to discuss with him and so I build up to it, carefully planning my words on what I am going to say and how I am going to say it and get myself all stressed in the process. If I am planning for the worse, he is good, if I plan for Ok, I get unreasonable. For me it is part of the dance that I have been involved with for far too long.

Giving up the drink is only one facet, but they really have to 'get it' and understand that they do not function normaly when interacting with others and take action to resolve this, which basically boils down to lots and lots of therapy. If your AH had a therapist, he could talk through his emotions, work out his issues about what happened and hear it from a third party that he has nothing to worry about.

Dont waste anymore time trying to figure it out, Im frustrated typing this, so I can understand why you feel frustrated. Move on and tell him to get over it!
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Old 05-22-2011, 09:13 PM
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I had a very similar experience recently. I had run into my AH on the street and after a conversation he leaned in to kiss me goodbye. I had decided that the time previous to that he had hugged me and it threw me for a loop. So I took a step back. He looked hurt and I felt a wee bit guilty-but also proud that I was doing something that put my own well being first. I figured we don't live together so I did not have to deal with the fall out. I almost emailed him to explain but then thought I really did not owe him an explanation.
Fast forward 2 weeks later and we were talking on the phone. He brought up the incident and I explained why I did it and I said it was difficult for me but I needed to take care of me first. He seemed to understand. I also told him I was willing to take it one incident at a time and I would appreciate it if he would respect those boundaries and I would respect his-boundaries are very big for him right now.
A month later at his father's memorial service, he came up to me to say goodbye. He had this look on his face like it was painful to interact with me. I hugged him and said a few kind words and ended with "I Love You". He backed up and said, "And that's why you backed up when I tried to give you a friendly little peck on the cheek that day?"
I reminded him that we had spoken about it and that I did not want to go over it again at this time but if he wanted to have a conversation about it another time I would be happy to.
He said he did not remember talking about it!
That was scary for me to hear him say. I don't think he would lie about it like that.
and mind you- this is the man who has said that I make his skin crawl when I touch him and that he has no interest in kissing me because I am a bully.
I am not sure it is pure manipulation. I may be naive but he does not play head games like that.
I do think his self esteem is so low that he cannot handle any rejection.
I think he is conflicted in how he feels about me.
Again, I remember an AA speaker saying once
"Treat me special and I feel normal, Treat me normal and I feel rejected."
I too have to pick and choose my words very carefully when I talk to him. Its a lot of work. I don't want to live my life like that.
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Old 05-23-2011, 04:22 AM
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I don't think the manipulation is intentional for the most part, but the outcome makes it manipulation. The way they act manipulates us into doing what they want us to do. So A doesn't really have to dwell on his actions, he acts and he gets what he wants. I believe that is mostly to do with immaturity.
I think we all remember that moment in our own lives when we realize no matter how much we cry and sulk wanting things certain way, it is not going to happen. Than we adjust ourselves to reality. That is IMHO the final moment in our growing up process. I don't think A's have reached that point yet. And by letting them manipulate us we are just enabling their resistance to acepting the life for what it is and acting accordingly.
I guess the right thing to do would be a though love IMHO.

In regard to differentiate the A problems from relationship problems IMO it can be explained simply. The relationship problems are the ones you can work on and make them better, two people working things together. But A problems are the ones you have no control over, you can not fix them, you can not make it better, and by trying to do so you're just draining your energy in vain and end up feeling miserable, sad, in agony. As you're not trying to fix problems in relationship, but problems A has as a separate person, that are making your relationship a mess.
I don't know if this makes sense. To be honest if someone told me this few years ago I'd thought WTF are you on about. I guess to come to the point to make the difference between the two one must work on his own recovery and educate him/herself on the alcoholism, build up the self esteem and not allow to be bullied into not trusting his/hers own judjement.
.... Like for years I was so miserable my AH is hardly ever home, I thought he doesn't love me, I'm not enough, I tried everything to make him want to be with me more... but the simple fact was it had nothing to do with me, it wasn't personal, it was about him wanting to be out so he could drink all the time. It had nothing to do with love, only with addiction....

I don't think anything of what I've said excludes the compassion, empathy. I presonally feel the great empathy for my STBXAH, even though he was unfaithful for years, even though he nearly died from liver cirrosis and still continued to drink, even though he stole from me, even though he was not good father to our kids or husband to me. The way I see it none of it was about me, it wasn't personal, it was just his inability to live the normal life and his addiction. Right now I'm doing the only thing I believe is helpful to him, I'm letting him fight his own battles, as I have finally realize that is the only helpful thing I can do for him.
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Old 05-23-2011, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by jamaicamecrazy View Post
"Treat me special and I feel normal, Treat me normal and I feel rejected."
This quote fits my RAH perfectly..Normal is not enough for him. Lately, he has been saying "yea, i know the feeling, he loves her and she doesn't love him" or any other saying that relates to "he loves her but she doesnt love him no matter what he does".. He just relapsed and im still here with him BUT that's NOT enough... I've been thru Hell and back with his addiction..nope still not enough. i have supported and encouraged his sobriety, boundaries and freedom of his own choices.. NOPE.. still not enough for him...
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Old 05-23-2011, 05:50 PM
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This thread made me realize that my rabf does exaggerate aches and pains, and I suppose it is to gain my sympathy, additional TLC, affection, I don't know.

What I do know is that I just don't have it to give when it is not really worthy. I just don't.
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Old 05-23-2011, 07:21 PM
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Again, I remember an AA speaker saying once
"Treat me special and I feel normal, Treat me normal and I feel rejected."
I too have to pick and choose my words very carefully when I talk to him. Its a lot of work. I don't want to live my life like that.[/QUOTE]

Perfectly said. Thanks for sharing.
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