Separate the man from the disease
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Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,103
Yeah but cancer doesn't make people become completely selfish, thoughtless, inconsiderate, irresponsible and ABUSIVE. Thus, the problem many of us have in cutting our exes or family members SLACK because "they have a disease."
Originally Posted by LaPinturaBella 
I definitely think separating the person from the disease is to help us in our recovery. Like lillamy said, if the person had cancer or something, we would know that a lot of the not so nice things being said by that person would be because of the pain and the fear. The A also has that same fear and emotional pain. Doesn't mean I buy into what they say. Doesn't mean I accept the horrible word and vile behavior. It's NOT an excuse by any means. However, it does allow me to feel compassion for the person and to understand why they act this way. It also allows me to discern if the horrible behavior is due to the core values.
For example, my ExABF was 2 1/2 years "recovered" when we met. However, I know now that his core values are rotten to, well, the core. He's a con artist through and through. By his own admission. OTOH, a good friend who died due to this disease, could say some stupid hurtful things while drunk, but he really was a very good person with solid core values.
So I have compassion that my friend was in a lot of emotional anguish and chose a foolish way to deal with it. I have compassion that ExABF is in so much pain he won't/can't look at himself and do the work required to be the person HE wants to be. And I was able to discern that he had to go...he's not someone I want in my life sober or drunk. And that compassion helps me not be so angry or judgmental.
For example, my ExABF was 2 1/2 years "recovered" when we met. However, I know now that his core values are rotten to, well, the core. He's a con artist through and through. By his own admission. OTOH, a good friend who died due to this disease, could say some stupid hurtful things while drunk, but he really was a very good person with solid core values.
So I have compassion that my friend was in a lot of emotional anguish and chose a foolish way to deal with it. I have compassion that ExABF is in so much pain he won't/can't look at himself and do the work required to be the person HE wants to be. And I was able to discern that he had to go...he's not someone I want in my life sober or drunk. And that compassion helps me not be so angry or judgmental.
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
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Originally Posted by sandrawg
Yeah but cancer doesn't make people become completely selfish, thoughtless, inconsiderate, irresponsible and ABUSIVE. Thus, the problem many of us have in cutting our exes or family members SLACK because "they have a disease."
I don't think you need to cut anyone "slack" because their behavior is caused (in whole or in part) by a disease. If it is unacceptable to live with, it is unacceptable to live with. If you need to remove yourself from the situation, you need to remove yourself from the situation.
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Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: California
Posts: 383
Originally Posted by LexieCat
Some cancers do, in fact, have that effect (brain tumors, for example). Dementia (from Alzheimer's, for instance) can also cause abusive, irresponsible behavior, as can other various mental illnesses.
I don't think you need to cut anyone "slack" because their behavior is caused (in whole or in part) by a disease. If it is unacceptable to live with, it is unacceptable to live with. If you need to remove yourself from the situation, you need to remove yourself from the situation.
I don't think you need to cut anyone "slack" because their behavior is caused (in whole or in part) by a disease. If it is unacceptable to live with, it is unacceptable to live with. If you need to remove yourself from the situation, you need to remove yourself from the situation.
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Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: "Happy Rock" (Gladstone) Oregon
Posts: 1,252
The very first "Beginners' Meeting" F2F that I attended, the father of an A son said, "He's been in recovery for over two years now, but he's still an a**hole." I was taken aback by that, especially as it was my first meeting.
My AH has some rather distinct behaviors that only occur when he has been drinking. When I see any of these, I know to disengage, and go be in another room or place, away from him.
He also has some distince behaviors that only occur when he is detoxing (I guess I'd call that "going dry for a few days or weeks" as opposed to "recovery.") I REALLY have to disengage then because this is when he is most likely to be on some type of "attack vector." I call them "poison arguments" because he is releasing poisons from his system.
My AH has some rather distinct behaviors that only occur when he has been drinking. When I see any of these, I know to disengage, and go be in another room or place, away from him.
He also has some distince behaviors that only occur when he is detoxing (I guess I'd call that "going dry for a few days or weeks" as opposed to "recovery.") I REALLY have to disengage then because this is when he is most likely to be on some type of "attack vector." I call them "poison arguments" because he is releasing poisons from his system.
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Del Rio, TX
Posts: 380
Can't separate. It is part of who he is. The reason he is different when he drinks matters not one bit. It is who is is. Some of us can live with a person who has a drinking problem. Some of us can't.
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,052
I agree with ZXR...
I think this idea of separating the person from the disease is ********. It isn't separate. It's who they are, and they are fully present as the active alcoholics that they are. I think it is destructive and codependent to separate the man from the disease-- as if it somehow excuses their behavior.
What it's really saying is separate the drunk from accountability and responsibility, and I refuse to do so.
My two cents. Take what you want and leave the rest.
Cyranoak
What it's really saying is separate the drunk from accountability and responsibility, and I refuse to do so.
My two cents. Take what you want and leave the rest.
Cyranoak
Originally Posted by zrx1200R
Can't separate. It is part of who he is. The reason he is different when he drinks matters not one bit. It is who is is. Some of us can live with a person who has a drinking problem. Some of us can't.
Today is a New Day
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,766
While I will confess I haven't heard the phrase before, I think it could go it two ways. Both have helped me.
The first way, after separating the drunken XABF from the one who isn't drunk, I discovered that even if he was sober he'd be abusive. At that point, what's the sense of sticking around and hoping he'll get sober? If he ever gets sober, and even that one is iffy, then he's got to learn how to not be abusive towards me. I can't wait that long - and to be honest, I'd be surprised if XABF lived that long. (Not to sound morbid, but he's got enough enablers on the alcoholism side, that affects his whole family. The abusiveness would only affect me, so they'd spend all their time telling him that he's right and I'm wrong, and then what's the incentive to fix anything?)
The second way goes with a phrase my parish priest used to always say, "Hate the sin, love the sinner." I do still care about him... I even forgive him, really, especially since I know he's in the grip of something much stronger than I'll ever be.
But I want nothing to do with the alcoholism (or the abusiveness), and so I'm going my separate way. And that's okay, I can still care about him without wanting anything to do with him ever again. It seems a massive contradiction - but it's my reality, and it's okay.
The first way, after separating the drunken XABF from the one who isn't drunk, I discovered that even if he was sober he'd be abusive. At that point, what's the sense of sticking around and hoping he'll get sober? If he ever gets sober, and even that one is iffy, then he's got to learn how to not be abusive towards me. I can't wait that long - and to be honest, I'd be surprised if XABF lived that long. (Not to sound morbid, but he's got enough enablers on the alcoholism side, that affects his whole family. The abusiveness would only affect me, so they'd spend all their time telling him that he's right and I'm wrong, and then what's the incentive to fix anything?)
The second way goes with a phrase my parish priest used to always say, "Hate the sin, love the sinner." I do still care about him... I even forgive him, really, especially since I know he's in the grip of something much stronger than I'll ever be.
But I want nothing to do with the alcoholism (or the abusiveness), and so I'm going my separate way. And that's okay, I can still care about him without wanting anything to do with him ever again. It seems a massive contradiction - but it's my reality, and it's okay.
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Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,103
Yknow what, I buy the "alcoholism as a disease" notion because you can prove the brain mechanism of addiction.
HOWEVER, at some point, it becomes THEIR choice not to seek help for it.
Would a cancer patient live in denial about their disease and refuse to seek help? NO. But an alcoholic can.
And many of us gave up so much to try to help these people, only to end up traumatized and hurt, and vilified by the very person we wanted to save.
So, I say, I have no feelings whatsoever for my exabf. No sympathy. No tolerance. And no more love. He treated me horribly, and it was my bad to put up with it, but it's HIS choice not to get help. He let me walk out of his life instead, when he had a choice--disease schmisease.
If alcoholics NEVER were able to exert their freedom of choice to go get help, there wouldn't be so many alcoholics in recovery today.
HOWEVER, at some point, it becomes THEIR choice not to seek help for it.
Would a cancer patient live in denial about their disease and refuse to seek help? NO. But an alcoholic can.
And many of us gave up so much to try to help these people, only to end up traumatized and hurt, and vilified by the very person we wanted to save.
So, I say, I have no feelings whatsoever for my exabf. No sympathy. No tolerance. And no more love. He treated me horribly, and it was my bad to put up with it, but it's HIS choice not to get help. He let me walk out of his life instead, when he had a choice--disease schmisease.
If alcoholics NEVER were able to exert their freedom of choice to go get help, there wouldn't be so many alcoholics in recovery today.
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Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Ireland
Posts: 59
Don't buy the separation thing either. This, and the 'Allergy' part of the disease model.
In our attempt to separate we might think we are talkiing to "person number one", the sober sane part for example. How to we know we are not atcually talking the "person number two" the ultra-clever manipulator actually disguising themselves as "person number one"?
As someone pointed out earlier, you can bet person number two is lstening in on the conversation with person number one. How can there be possibly a dividing line? All we can believe is that at any given time the struggle inside the person to manage their own addiction is having success or not, and not in the black-and-white, on-off sense, but in degrees of behviour and use.
It either helps us focus on ourselves because it reinforces our belief of alcoholism as a disease, or it reinforces our co-dependence. (or both at the same time!)
In our attempt to separate we might think we are talkiing to "person number one", the sober sane part for example. How to we know we are not atcually talking the "person number two" the ultra-clever manipulator actually disguising themselves as "person number one"?
As someone pointed out earlier, you can bet person number two is lstening in on the conversation with person number one. How can there be possibly a dividing line? All we can believe is that at any given time the struggle inside the person to manage their own addiction is having success or not, and not in the black-and-white, on-off sense, but in degrees of behviour and use.
It either helps us focus on ourselves because it reinforces our belief of alcoholism as a disease, or it reinforces our co-dependence. (or both at the same time!)
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Midwest, USA
Posts: 2,899
There is a lot of anxiety and depression in my family (no alcoholism until now) and this is a tenet I've had to accept to continue contact with some members of my family, notably my parents. My dad is extremely depressive and can be verbally abusive when he is at his lowest, particularly when he is frustrated. My mom is extremely anxious and when she's in a tizzy likes to focus that anxiety on me, the last child in town. With both of them, I can't take it personally. It's not about me. Anything I do to help or hinder isn't helpful. I have to disengage. One of the most useful pieces that I have learned over and over in the last decade is to adjust my expectations to be realistic about their abilities, disabilities, blind spots, and weaknesses. For example, if I ever needed someone to fill in and watch my kids or to give me a small loan when things were tight, my parents would absolutely be there for me, no questions asked. But if I needed someone to pat me on the back, tell me I'm smart and capable and beautiful, they are the last people I should go to.
Like my alcoholic husband, there is nothing that will improve their mood swings and idiosyncracies until they accept treatment in some form and stick to it (which I doubt will happen, they are in their 70s now). My choice is to stick it out with them with some healthy boundaries in place, or cut them out altogether. And frankly, I love my parents and will not cut them out. They are not depressed and anxious all the time, and the times I do spend with them are mostly good, fun, generous times.
My attitude toward my "R"AH is similar. The alcoholism is the primary problem, but he has secondary issues with anxiety and depression that he has always self-medicated with alcohol. He's not physically abusive, but like my dad can get mean and nasty when he's down and especially when he's been drinking. That coupled with the alcoholic spending habits and my fears about him drinking and driving (no DUIs yet) have made the situation unlivable for me as it was. He has committed to quitting drinking, and since he's gone through the initial detox and is adjusting meds for the anxiety and depression, things have been crazier than ever.
I don't think my husband is completely eaten up by the addiction yet. I think he's scared and feels naked without the shield of booze. He's facing the depths of his addiction for the first time and all of the personal and professional failures that go along with it. I empathize, I do, and I wish more than anything that he will get himself pulled together.
But I can't hang my hat on wishes, and realistically, my empathy has its limits, and I'm not willing to sacrifice my emotional and physical well-being supporting his recovery journey. Period.
I can see him, the man, for who he is and the struggles he's facing, but there are elements of this disease that are absolutely antithetical to having a marriage and family together. Period.
We're in a holding pattern now, and in my mind I have (barring any super-dramatic failures) about a year's worth of patience and planning left in me before I'm ready to leave him unless some dramatic commitments to his own recovery are taken. In the meantime I am planning for both outcomes: on the one hand, trying to support him without micro-managing his recovery, and on the other hand, preparing my professional and financial lives for the possibility of being a single mom of two.
Like my alcoholic husband, there is nothing that will improve their mood swings and idiosyncracies until they accept treatment in some form and stick to it (which I doubt will happen, they are in their 70s now). My choice is to stick it out with them with some healthy boundaries in place, or cut them out altogether. And frankly, I love my parents and will not cut them out. They are not depressed and anxious all the time, and the times I do spend with them are mostly good, fun, generous times.
My attitude toward my "R"AH is similar. The alcoholism is the primary problem, but he has secondary issues with anxiety and depression that he has always self-medicated with alcohol. He's not physically abusive, but like my dad can get mean and nasty when he's down and especially when he's been drinking. That coupled with the alcoholic spending habits and my fears about him drinking and driving (no DUIs yet) have made the situation unlivable for me as it was. He has committed to quitting drinking, and since he's gone through the initial detox and is adjusting meds for the anxiety and depression, things have been crazier than ever.
I don't think my husband is completely eaten up by the addiction yet. I think he's scared and feels naked without the shield of booze. He's facing the depths of his addiction for the first time and all of the personal and professional failures that go along with it. I empathize, I do, and I wish more than anything that he will get himself pulled together.
But I can't hang my hat on wishes, and realistically, my empathy has its limits, and I'm not willing to sacrifice my emotional and physical well-being supporting his recovery journey. Period.
I can see him, the man, for who he is and the struggles he's facing, but there are elements of this disease that are absolutely antithetical to having a marriage and family together. Period.
We're in a holding pattern now, and in my mind I have (barring any super-dramatic failures) about a year's worth of patience and planning left in me before I'm ready to leave him unless some dramatic commitments to his own recovery are taken. In the meantime I am planning for both outcomes: on the one hand, trying to support him without micro-managing his recovery, and on the other hand, preparing my professional and financial lives for the possibility of being a single mom of two.
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