Cyranoak

It is a monumental waste of time, effort, and money. As is everything else used to attempt to communicate with an active alcoholic. Been there done that.

Cyranaok

wanttobehealthy

[QUOTE] This is OT for a sec, but don't you think a rehab place ought to be able to see through that? That kind of stuff amazes me (AH did the same with his outpatient program-- he's the superstar of it until he relapses of course and says I caused it!)

There must be a play book handed out in bars saying "here's how to act in MC or life in general to make everything everyone else's fault". It's so unoriginal!

wanttobehealthy

...got the t-shirt?! me too!

What amazes me is how long some of the MC we saw let the game go on... I mean, don't they see signs of addiction? One in particular actually said that so long as my H's intentions were good, I ought not be so upset about his actions.

Ironically that T's kid is now in the high school I work in and he is an entitled little nightmare and shocker- the Dad makes excuses for his kids behavior constantly...

Tuffgirl

Like any other "service" that you buy - shop for a good therapist. If you don't like the first one (or five) keep shopping. Some therapists I know should not be practicing. But some teachers I know should not be teaching either.

That said, I put counseling with my RAH on hold because I was getting so much feedback from others (in AA and Al-Anon) to wait for the first year of sobriety to pass. That right now, being in recovery is the topmost priority and our marriage issues could wait. The therapist we saw agreed and even suggested to me in a private session that if my RAH was serious about recovery, lots would change in the first year anyway.

But my husband is in recovery... the therapist would not see us if he wasn't. As many have already said - not much can be done without removing the main obstacle...booze.

You have nothing to lose by trying, though. At least you can say you tried.

Alone22

I insisted on MC because I was not certain all of our issues were just related to his addiction. The therapist was an addiction specialist that AH had seen in the past. She saw me alone before any MC and point blank told me MC doesn't work with an active A. I convinced her that we really needed some crisis counseling just so we could better our communication etc. She agreed and we had about 4-5 sessions together. Honestly it did help our communication, but what really happened it allowed me to see how until he is in recovery the "dance" will continue. My AH and I had a huge fight on my birthday and our last session together was spent discussing what happened. She looked at him (and then me ) and said his anger had nothing to do with me and that he needed to see another therapist to work on whatever is making him so angry. He is now seeing the therapist next door, by himself and I have continued to see her. Without the few months of MC I don't think I would have been able to see what I needed to see which was we both are very sick and we both need to focus on just our own recovery. She did help us to see things like triggers, and how to speak to one another more effectively so I do not think it was a waste. We (I) needed that before I could move on to just me. I would like to think that AH also was able to see that the real problem in our marriage was simply his addiction. He has tried to be in recovery a few times over the last 8 years.... maybe the next time he will get there. For now I am working on me.

Cyranoak

Let me just add that they love it when we suggest marriage counseling because that way they can look like they are trying without actually trying. I still remember sitting there as pure ******** came pouring out of my wife's alcoholic mouth, and wondering why the hell she had agreed. In retrospect I know it was because she thought of it as a tool to back my ass off-- it did, and I gave it to her.

Ugh.

Waste, waste, waste, waste, waste.

Cyranoak

seekingcalm

When my rabf was pretending to be sober, we went to a therapist together. He lied, the therapist had NO idea that he was lying, and it was a pure charade.
In my opinion, if a person won't be honest with themselves, then what is the point in expecting them to be honest with anyone else? Just not possible.

NewChapter

One more thought: Although it felt at the time like a monumental waste, those MC sessions did show me how delusional XAH was, how small was the world that he had created, and that I didn't know this person, nor did I want to be friends with him--much less continue to be married to him. As painful as they were, those sessions helped me to detach and clearly see the situation as it was, not as I wished it could be.

boomerlady

Thanks, everyone for your very helpful comments. I do agree that I shouldn't have any expectations of the counseling. I have seen the therapist for several months individually and she knows he has a drinking problem. When I brought up in our joint session him drinking too much, he quickly came up with some ridiculous lie. When we were at home, I told AH that if he was going to lie then we weren't going to get anything out of MC. I also told him that I wasn't going to continue if he was going to lie. I just cringed when I heard him tell the therapist the same old b.s. excuses that he had given me many times over. I know there are many barriers, alcohol being the biggest, to our being truly intimate with each other and aware of each other's feelings. She wants us each to bring our goals for the counseling with us to the next session. I think that my biggest goal is that we can get past the barriers to intimacy or realize that we CAN'T get past them. My barriers are the alcohol and the past hurts caused by it and his anger issues. How does that sound for a counseling goal? It may not be worth the time, money, or effort but as one of you said, at least I can say we tried it.

seekingcalm

I didn't look at it this way when I was going through it, but one thing I have gotten out of this thread is that if you go to marriage counselling for yourself, and what you can get out of that, rather than with expectations for the marriage to improve, you cannot lose.

If all you walk away with is clarity, well, that would be worth it, no doubt.

boomerlady

Well, AH and I went to our 2nd MC appt today. It was quite interesting to hear his goals for MC. He said that I don't pay enough attention to him, and that he drinks more because I won't have enough sex with him. Can we say quack, quack, quack!!? I had to laugh when I played that statement back in my mind after the session. Talk about manipulation...poor AH doesn't get enough sex and therefore he drinks more and more. I knew it had to be me...who else could it be? He did agree to talk perhaps individually with the counselor about his drinking behavior and his anger issues. That shocked me but we'll see if he has any follow through with that agreement. We both agreed to take a timeout when angry and not talk about the issue until the angry one is calm. Since he's usually the angry one spewing all over me, this should be a true test for him. Of course, he had to first tell our counselor that having an angry explosion 3 times a year was not a big deal!! Not a big deal to whom?? And he wonders why I wouldn't want sex all the time with him?? I did bring that up in the session that trampled feelings and intimacy don't go together. So I think at least I feel better that I said things I'd wanted to say for many many years or had tried to say in the past but wasn't heard. He was turning red so I'm sure he was angry at some of my comments, but he kept his cool about it. It was so much easier to talk about it with the counselor there since he would normally dismiss my feelings or invalidate them if we were alone. So we'll see where MC leads to and if it helps the relationship. As I said before, hopefully it leads to clarity concerning the marriage, and I learn valuable tools from it.

sandrawg

Here's what you get, when you try to work anything out with an active alcoholic.

Minimize
Denial
Blame shifting

Minimize
Denial
Blame shifting

Rinse, Repeat

Seriously, what is the point??

Why try to work anything out with an active alcoholic? Waste of time and money.

Sorry if I sound cynical but 3.5 yrs off and on with an exabf, tends to do that to you.

boomerlady

Yes, I understand your cynicism, Sandrawg. I've had 10 times the amount of time you had with your xabf with my AH. Some may think I'm crazy to try MC with him after so many attempts to improve the marriage on my own. But that's it, it was on my own and he was a non-participant. Al-anon has helped me so much in setting boundaries and finding the peace that I need to find for myself. I feel that I need the clarity of MC to decide if he has any intention of working with me to make this marriage work for both of us. He can blame shift all he wants, but he's half the marriage and it's not working so it's now up to him to take some responsibility. Only time will tell where this will lead. In the meantime, I'm learning some relationship skills that I can use with him or without him.

SoloMio

Add me to the folks that know that an active alcoholic will take even skilled counselors through the ringer.

1. His first "counselor" was just before his relapse. She was a holistic "guru"--not an addictions counselor, and he had her believing I was a controlling, manipulative b*tch. She said to him, "You're right. You should leave her--why can't you have a little wine with dinner." And there was the permission he was seeking and there went six years of sobriety.
2. After he was back to being full-blown alcoholic, we went for marriage counseling--he picked her. She was like a kid just out of school and had NO experience in addictions counseling, and was completely sucked in by his manipulation, and completely missed all the cues that he was just deflecting the real issues. He even brought her flowers, which she accepted (my personal therapist told me that that's highly inappropriate)
3. The latest attempt--at the end of February I left him for six weeks, telling him he had to get his act together, so he got a counselor--a VERY experienced addictions counselor (decades in the field), and he even managed to manipulate him. AH told the counselor that it's hard for him to get through the weekends not drinking, so would it be alright for me to come home--just on the weekends--to support him? The counselor asked me if that would be something I would do, and because the counselor was suggesting I should, I did it. When AH subsequently started missing appointments, or flying off the handle if the counselor was 10 minutes late and finding all kinds of other ways to sabotage the therapy, the counselor basically apologized to me, admitting he had been wrong to draw me back home.

So, I will NEVER go back to therapy with him until he has had some kind of treatment for several months. What a waste of time, money, and emotional energy.

TakingCharge999

I swear we went out with the same guy.
I also had many chances like that to leave in a dramatic fashion

I like to go back to such moments in my mind, and do what I would have done had I realized I was a worthy woman.

Supposedly our mind does not recognize fantasy from reality. So, after such exercises I can stop beating myself, because I did the right thing, changed the story.

That is called "reconstructive regression therapy", I have done that with my therapist's guide. I also do that alone.

TakingCharge999

This makes me sick. Ah, the "not enough sex" card.
How DARE you???????? {sarcasm}

All the best, boomerlady.

I agree some situations seem like a loss of time, but they can bring clarity so in the end they are worthy.
To me, that sentence told me much about this man. I find him selfish, superficial and disrespectful, and I am being polite.

I don't have experience with MC but I don't think anything is worth it with an active addict. At least the one I knew had the following in mind:

/ alcohol
/ where to get alcohol
/ how to do as less as possible to keep his job so he can buy alcohol
/ sex and what kind of lies he has to say to get it.

Nothing else mattered. Someone else? hah! I don't think in his mind there's room for someone else besides himself. His needs. That's all that there is in his world. Oh, and denial.

Just my experience.

Tuffgirl

Boomerlady - I am glad you are getting something out of this, even if it is realizing your husband is seriously quacking. That's what I got from the 4 sessions I did with my RAH. The last one I simply refused to continue about halfway through. I could not stand to hear the BS come out of his mouth. And it bothered me that the therapist seemed to coddle him, even though he did do a good job of bringing things back around to alcoholic patterns.

I ended the last session, made the RAH leave, and finished out the half hour alone. The therapist admitted the RAH was still super angry and still living in his own la-la land. But confronting him would only make him more angry. He also said he didn't think this was worth it now and encouraged me to wait until after the first year sober and in a solid recovery plan to try any marriage counseling. He also recommended I continue Al-Anon for myself, as it is soooo much cheaper than counseling ($1 a session versus $150).

Best advice I got from a therapist!

wanttobehealthy

boomerlady- just wanted to empathize with the "I wouldn't drink so much if only...." With my AH it's "I wouldn't lie about my drinking if you just ......" He told our last MC that I didn't appreciate/praise him enough. When I'd give examples (even from that session) of how I'd validated him he'd say it wasn't in the way he wanted.

If you are able to get something out of MC regardless of whether your AH does, then that's great and I think you're a lot stronger than me. All that happened to me when we tried MC many times was I'd get sucked in to defending myself against his distortions and he'd sit calmly and lie and I'd be the one who looked like the lunatic, crying, defending myself etc..

returntonormal

God! I get both:

"You never want to have sex with me. It makes me so uncomfortable that I want to drink."

"If you ever told me when I was doing the right thing, I wouldn't need to drink. You only tell me when I'm doing the wrong thing."

It's only recently that I've been able to see both statements as Quacking. True or not true, it's just not worth the effort.

BobbyJ

Im in a mood today of my own...

A active alcoholic & counseling???

MIGHT AS WELL TAKE THE FAMILY DOG TO COUNSELING!!!
And at the end of the counseling session,
the dog will be sober,
he will kiss you goodnight without the smell of alcohol,
he will feel bad if he pisses on your kitchen floor,
he will protect you and love you unconditionally..

Im in a mood....