I'll have one relapse, everything on it, and a side of heartache, please
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: rural west
Posts: 1,375
I'll have one relapse, everything on it, and a side of heartache, please
I haven't talked to my STBXAH in a month or so.
We are working on divorce paperwork.
I have been getting sadder and sadder and really jonesing to talk to him (relapse, anyone? And would you like a side of heartache with that?).
Well, I called and I talked and he quacked and it was actually good.
I think I had gotten far enough away from him that I was just feeling sad and forgetting all the great reasons I am choosing divorce. (been there?)
So, I asked him, how has this whole thing changed you? If we were (theoretically) still together and you were having a hard time again, how would I know you were going to behave any different?
He began (for the eight jillionth time) to explain how he was feeling on the big blow up day (essentially that me confronting him on lying/hiding alcohol, depression and addiction was me hating "everything" about him and wanting to emotionally tear him down which made him feel threatened and abused and angry and hurt).
He says, "how many times do I have to explain and when are you going to hear me? We both can't hear one another. That's our problem."
I said, "I DO hear you and you don't have to explain ever again. The thing is, those feelings (that I hated him) were based on erroneous beliefs. I'm not taking away your feelings. They are totally valid, based on what you THOUGHT I felt and believed. The problem is, I don't feel and believe what you think. I loved you. I believed I could share my concerns with you and you could hear them. I believed we could face these concerns and deal with them as a team.
So, I understood how you felt THEN, but now that you know what you know...have you reframed what happened? Do you see it differently?"
No answer.
It was a hardware store for bread moment.
So, after a while, I asked, "Do you REALLY believe I never loved you and you had to force me to marry you?"
Silence.
Then he says, "I felt strong feelings! That's totally valid in this circumstance. You're trying to take away my right to feel. It is healthy to feel things! I felt that way THEN!"
I replied, "Yes, but there is a difference between contextualizing your feelings and talking ABOUT them with me rather than coming FROM your feelings and DUMPING them.
"I am feeling like you never loved me and it makes me feel sad" is different from "you never loved me".
He sees no difference.
Oh, YEAH! That's why this can't work. It can't work. I could use one million different reasons why, but it just can't.
I actually felt better after the call.
Love the heck out of the guy, but...
I can't fix him and I can't live with a man more attached to his defeatist reality than being interested in hearing about mine.
I confronted him in a way that he couldn't deal with. I accept that. But I feel I confronted him FOR GOOD REASONS THAT ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE.
He responded in a way I couldn't deal with. But he responded that way because he felt like I hated him and just wanted to bash him WHEN I DIDN'T.
One is based in actions in the real world and one is based in the fears in his mind.
Thanks for that reminder convo, STBX.
I keep moving forward one day at a time.
We are working on divorce paperwork.
I have been getting sadder and sadder and really jonesing to talk to him (relapse, anyone? And would you like a side of heartache with that?).
Well, I called and I talked and he quacked and it was actually good.
I think I had gotten far enough away from him that I was just feeling sad and forgetting all the great reasons I am choosing divorce. (been there?)
So, I asked him, how has this whole thing changed you? If we were (theoretically) still together and you were having a hard time again, how would I know you were going to behave any different?
He began (for the eight jillionth time) to explain how he was feeling on the big blow up day (essentially that me confronting him on lying/hiding alcohol, depression and addiction was me hating "everything" about him and wanting to emotionally tear him down which made him feel threatened and abused and angry and hurt).
He says, "how many times do I have to explain and when are you going to hear me? We both can't hear one another. That's our problem."
I said, "I DO hear you and you don't have to explain ever again. The thing is, those feelings (that I hated him) were based on erroneous beliefs. I'm not taking away your feelings. They are totally valid, based on what you THOUGHT I felt and believed. The problem is, I don't feel and believe what you think. I loved you. I believed I could share my concerns with you and you could hear them. I believed we could face these concerns and deal with them as a team.
So, I understood how you felt THEN, but now that you know what you know...have you reframed what happened? Do you see it differently?"
No answer.
It was a hardware store for bread moment.
So, after a while, I asked, "Do you REALLY believe I never loved you and you had to force me to marry you?"
Silence.
Then he says, "I felt strong feelings! That's totally valid in this circumstance. You're trying to take away my right to feel. It is healthy to feel things! I felt that way THEN!"
I replied, "Yes, but there is a difference between contextualizing your feelings and talking ABOUT them with me rather than coming FROM your feelings and DUMPING them.
"I am feeling like you never loved me and it makes me feel sad" is different from "you never loved me".
He sees no difference.
Oh, YEAH! That's why this can't work. It can't work. I could use one million different reasons why, but it just can't.
I actually felt better after the call.
Love the heck out of the guy, but...
I can't fix him and I can't live with a man more attached to his defeatist reality than being interested in hearing about mine.
I confronted him in a way that he couldn't deal with. I accept that. But I feel I confronted him FOR GOOD REASONS THAT ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE.
He responded in a way I couldn't deal with. But he responded that way because he felt like I hated him and just wanted to bash him WHEN I DIDN'T.
One is based in actions in the real world and one is based in the fears in his mind.
Thanks for that reminder convo, STBX.
I keep moving forward one day at a time.
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Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 63
Originally Posted by FindingPeace1 
I have been getting sadder and sadder and really jonesing to talk to him (relapse, anyone? And would you like a side of heartache with that?).
Oh, YEAH! That's why this can't work. It can't work. I could use one million different reasons why, but it just can't.
I actually felt better after the call.
Love the heck out of the guy, but...
I can't fix him and I can't live with a man more attached to his defeatist reality than being interested in hearing about mine.
I confronted him in a way that he couldn't deal with. I accept that. But I feel I confronted him FOR GOOD REASONS THAT ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE.
He responded in a way I couldn't deal with. But he responded that way because he felt like I hated him and just wanted to bash him WHEN I DIDN'T.
One is based in actions in the real world and one is based in the fears in his mind.
Thanks for that reminder convo, STBX.
I keep moving forward one day at a time.
Keep up the good work!
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: right here, right now
Posts: 6,516
I'm glad you got the verification you needed.
It's infuriating how quickly we forget -- but at the same time, that shows us the capacity we have to heal and move on. As long as we're moving in a good direction, that's a very good thing.
It's infuriating how quickly we forget -- but at the same time, that shows us the capacity we have to heal and move on. As long as we're moving in a good direction, that's a very good thing.
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 1,637
Finding peace...
Your post was almost a perfect paraphrase of the non-sensical conversation I had with my AH earlier this week. I knew it was a no-win conversation, but I was detached enough to see my hand nearing the stove... feel the warmth of it... and then back away before it hurt me.
I think we sometimes have to do a "driveby" of the insanity just so we stay in reality. I'm starting to think that the idea of journalling is a much safer alternative though.
I see that as I sign that I'm progressing in my recovery.
Your post was almost a perfect paraphrase of the non-sensical conversation I had with my AH earlier this week. I knew it was a no-win conversation, but I was detached enough to see my hand nearing the stove... feel the warmth of it... and then back away before it hurt me.
I think we sometimes have to do a "driveby" of the insanity just so we stay in reality. I'm starting to think that the idea of journalling is a much safer alternative though.
I see that as I sign that I'm progressing in my recovery.
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 3,095
Finding Peace and Getting By... both your posts are ones I could write. I've had that very conversation... This whole part below is like a script of the past 2 years... round and round we go and I say things that I think any sensible person would "get" and I get the silence and indignant, pissed off responses... Glad you got verification that he's not going to change-- though I do wish for you that he'd responded differently. I feel your heartache and missing what you thought you'd have and wish you could have. It sucks that we still love them and who we thought they were-- it makes accepting that they are likely to never change really really hard. At least for me...
So, I asked him, how has this whole thing changed you? If we were (theoretically) still together and you were having a hard time again, how would I know you were going to behave any different?
He began (for the eight jillionth time) to explain how he was feeling on the big blow up day (essentially that me confronting him on lying/hiding alcohol, depression and addiction was me hating "everything" about him and wanting to emotionally tear him down which made him feel threatened and abused and angry and hurt).
He says, "how many times do I have to explain and when are you going to hear me? We both can't hear one another. That's our problem."
I said, "I DO hear you and you don't have to explain ever again. The thing is, those feelings (that I hated him) were based on erroneous beliefs. I'm not taking away your feelings. They are totally valid, based on what you THOUGHT I felt and believed. The problem is, I don't feel and believe what you think. I loved you. I believed I could share my concerns with you and you could hear them. I believed we could face these concerns and deal with them as a team.
So, I understood how you felt THEN, but now that you know what you know...have you reframed what happened? Do you see it differently?"
No answer.
It was a hardware store for bread moment.
So, after a while, I asked, "Do you REALLY believe I never loved you and you had to force me to marry you?"
Silence.
Then he says, "I felt strong feelings! That's totally valid in this circumstance. You're trying to take away my right to feel. It is healthy to feel things! I felt that way THEN!"
I replied, "Yes, but there is a difference between contextualizing your feelings and talking ABOUT them with me rather than coming FROM your feelings and DUMPING them.
"I am feeling like you never loved me and it makes me feel sad" is different from "you never loved me".
He sees no difference.
He began (for the eight jillionth time) to explain how he was feeling on the big blow up day (essentially that me confronting him on lying/hiding alcohol, depression and addiction was me hating "everything" about him and wanting to emotionally tear him down which made him feel threatened and abused and angry and hurt).
He says, "how many times do I have to explain and when are you going to hear me? We both can't hear one another. That's our problem."
I said, "I DO hear you and you don't have to explain ever again. The thing is, those feelings (that I hated him) were based on erroneous beliefs. I'm not taking away your feelings. They are totally valid, based on what you THOUGHT I felt and believed. The problem is, I don't feel and believe what you think. I loved you. I believed I could share my concerns with you and you could hear them. I believed we could face these concerns and deal with them as a team.
So, I understood how you felt THEN, but now that you know what you know...have you reframed what happened? Do you see it differently?"
No answer.
It was a hardware store for bread moment.
So, after a while, I asked, "Do you REALLY believe I never loved you and you had to force me to marry you?"
Silence.
Then he says, "I felt strong feelings! That's totally valid in this circumstance. You're trying to take away my right to feel. It is healthy to feel things! I felt that way THEN!"
I replied, "Yes, but there is a difference between contextualizing your feelings and talking ABOUT them with me rather than coming FROM your feelings and DUMPING them.
"I am feeling like you never loved me and it makes me feel sad" is different from "you never loved me".
He sees no difference.
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 1,118
"I am feeling like you never loved me and it makes me feel sad" is different from "you never loved me."
Whatever you call it, it's distorted thinking, and when he pulls it I ask him to rephrase the statement without using the word "never" or "always"--because it keeps him out of the moment and puts him in a place that is 1) untrue; and 2) focused on the other person's perceived faults rather than his feelings and 3) makes it easy for him to victimize himself.
Anyway, that's just a side comment.
I also think you responded really well to the "driveby" encounter. And I love the "hardware store for bread" analogy.
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
It took me many years, and many relapses, and many tears, to finally be able to not have these types of conversations anymore. Getting to that place was a culmination of many things. First being that I finally bit the bullet and completely detached from my "original codependent relationship," that being the one I had had all my life with my brother. Completely detached from him, physically, emotionally, spiritutally. Let him go and refused to talk to him or allow myself to be involved in anything related to his life. That was when I first experienced Peace and Serenity. I had never had that before and I relished it. My thinking became clearer with each day I spent away from the insanity that is drug addiction and codependency. I was finallly able to see my own wants and needs.
Second was that I learned that my expectations of others were way too high. There are many, many people in this world and most do not think the way I do. For me to expect someone else to have my perceptions of the world was only hurting me. I know when my expectations are ruling me when I hear myself thinking or saying the word "should." Yes, any rational person should see things my way and I can get upset when they don't. I ask others what they think, and feel validated when someone else agrees with me that yes, So-and-So SHOULD do or think the way "we" do or think. But in most cases, now, I know that everyone has their OWN motivations and M.O.s. Everyone has their own abilities and ways of living. I cannot do anything about those things. I cannot make anyone think, want, or behave the same as me, no matter how "Right" I am. I may think that the ideal for me is to be a member of a close-knit team of two, excluding almost everyone else, where everything is smooth-running, peaches and cream. But that ideal is just not realistic.
And the third was understanding Validation. All those years of struggle, all those relationships I had which seemed to come crashing down on me after just a few months, were in large part due to my need for external validation. I guess that has something to do with self-esteem or self-confidence; I don't know. What I do know is that I needed so desperately for the man whom I was with to validate me and my worth as a person. And any time he did not do that, any time there was ANY indication that he might not feel that, that he did not cherish me completely, I would panic. And become very persistent in my efforts to GET. THAT. VALIDATION of worth. Because if he did not cherish me enough, or care enough about me, to do what I wanted to make me feel what I wanted, my world was devastated. And it didn't really matter who that person was, why I had chosen to be with him, or even whether or not I wanted to be with him in the first place. I was doing it to myself and pointing my finger at HIM. (And there were MANY "him"s).
Fourth in this journey was age. There is just something about turning 40 that has created a sense of self-confidence I don't think I had had before. Yes, I still have a long way to go with that. I still do not truly believe that I have a right to speak or be noticed. But once I turned 40 I got the sense that I did not need to look to others so much for validation. I have a plan for myself that I can work towards without anyone else involved. I have goals and plans for me. They are not huge goals or plans, they are actually quite simple. If someone wants to come along, and will make my life better, so be it. But I don't NEED or long for anyone to come along with me, anymore.
One last thing that I recall about this particular journey out of the madness was that at some point, I realized, that I am not the center of the universe. My needs, and my feelings, and my desires, were all, in my opinion, too huge for the rest of the world. I finally realized this because I looked back and saw that I had been in and out of so many relationships with so many different people, and it was always the same thing: My M.O. was to get MY needs met, at any cost. And honestly, I had no sense or thought that the OTHER person even HAD feelings to begin with. My bad feelings were so huge that I wanted the other person to be responsible for them and make them good; something no one can really do for me. I had to learn how to do it for myself. I had to learn to stand on my own two feet, and keep myself out of relationships and situations that caused me to feel Less Than. I had to find a new perspective, and have faith in my Higher Power, that He would help me be as strong as I needed to be in order to accomplish what I needed to accomplish. Even if that meant just being able to live on my own.
I'm sure there is more to this than I am remembering right now. So if I think of anything else that got me to this point, I'll try to come back here and talk about it a little on the off-chance that it might be helpful to you. Thanks for sharing.
Second was that I learned that my expectations of others were way too high. There are many, many people in this world and most do not think the way I do. For me to expect someone else to have my perceptions of the world was only hurting me. I know when my expectations are ruling me when I hear myself thinking or saying the word "should." Yes, any rational person should see things my way and I can get upset when they don't. I ask others what they think, and feel validated when someone else agrees with me that yes, So-and-So SHOULD do or think the way "we" do or think. But in most cases, now, I know that everyone has their OWN motivations and M.O.s. Everyone has their own abilities and ways of living. I cannot do anything about those things. I cannot make anyone think, want, or behave the same as me, no matter how "Right" I am. I may think that the ideal for me is to be a member of a close-knit team of two, excluding almost everyone else, where everything is smooth-running, peaches and cream. But that ideal is just not realistic.
And the third was understanding Validation. All those years of struggle, all those relationships I had which seemed to come crashing down on me after just a few months, were in large part due to my need for external validation. I guess that has something to do with self-esteem or self-confidence; I don't know. What I do know is that I needed so desperately for the man whom I was with to validate me and my worth as a person. And any time he did not do that, any time there was ANY indication that he might not feel that, that he did not cherish me completely, I would panic. And become very persistent in my efforts to GET. THAT. VALIDATION of worth. Because if he did not cherish me enough, or care enough about me, to do what I wanted to make me feel what I wanted, my world was devastated. And it didn't really matter who that person was, why I had chosen to be with him, or even whether or not I wanted to be with him in the first place. I was doing it to myself and pointing my finger at HIM. (And there were MANY "him"s).
Fourth in this journey was age. There is just something about turning 40 that has created a sense of self-confidence I don't think I had had before. Yes, I still have a long way to go with that. I still do not truly believe that I have a right to speak or be noticed. But once I turned 40 I got the sense that I did not need to look to others so much for validation. I have a plan for myself that I can work towards without anyone else involved. I have goals and plans for me. They are not huge goals or plans, they are actually quite simple. If someone wants to come along, and will make my life better, so be it. But I don't NEED or long for anyone to come along with me, anymore.
One last thing that I recall about this particular journey out of the madness was that at some point, I realized, that I am not the center of the universe. My needs, and my feelings, and my desires, were all, in my opinion, too huge for the rest of the world. I finally realized this because I looked back and saw that I had been in and out of so many relationships with so many different people, and it was always the same thing: My M.O. was to get MY needs met, at any cost. And honestly, I had no sense or thought that the OTHER person even HAD feelings to begin with. My bad feelings were so huge that I wanted the other person to be responsible for them and make them good; something no one can really do for me. I had to learn how to do it for myself. I had to learn to stand on my own two feet, and keep myself out of relationships and situations that caused me to feel Less Than. I had to find a new perspective, and have faith in my Higher Power, that He would help me be as strong as I needed to be in order to accomplish what I needed to accomplish. Even if that meant just being able to live on my own.
I'm sure there is more to this than I am remembering right now. So if I think of anything else that got me to this point, I'll try to come back here and talk about it a little on the off-chance that it might be helpful to you. Thanks for sharing.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: rural west
Posts: 1,375
L2L - What a great share! Thanks. I'll revisit your words again.
Solo - yah. "everything" and "never". Big, oversweeping words to try to express his depth of sadness.
Thanks to strength, lillamy, gettingby and wanttobe!
Today I feel a mixture of acceptance and sadness.
Over the last two years, probably now, I have had an off and on ache around my heart. A literal heart ache. I am feeling it today.
Again, I haven't been getting enough sleep and woke with a headache.
My friends say I'm doing good, but when you're in this much work on acceptance and grief...it feels NOT good.
My weekends have been sleeping and resting and hiding for ages. I just can't go out and do fun things when I am so emotionally exhausted.
I'm not fighting the end of my relationship today, just FEELING it.
p
Solo - yah. "everything" and "never". Big, oversweeping words to try to express his depth of sadness.
Thanks to strength, lillamy, gettingby and wanttobe!
Today I feel a mixture of acceptance and sadness.
Over the last two years, probably now, I have had an off and on ache around my heart. A literal heart ache. I am feeling it today.
Again, I haven't been getting enough sleep and woke with a headache.
My friends say I'm doing good, but when you're in this much work on acceptance and grief...it feels NOT good.
My weekends have been sleeping and resting and hiding for ages. I just can't go out and do fun things when I am so emotionally exhausted.
I'm not fighting the end of my relationship today, just FEELING it.
p
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Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Southwest
Posts: 1,207
L2L,
a million thanks. For Lent, I gave up placing my expectations on other people and it has been a really eye-opening and liberating 7 weeks. Primarily in terms of my emotional self-sufficiency. Sometimes I have had weak moments, but in general haven't dragged anyone else into my panic, and that alone has made them easier to recover from.
Thank you for articulating so much of what has been on my mind.
FP1, it is a time to grieve and mourn, and it is so sad. He is very different from you and he just doesn't see it the same way. Good for you for realizing that he can't give you what you think you have to have. It is a hard time.
Keep on sleeping and hiding. It isn't often that you get times like these.
a million thanks. For Lent, I gave up placing my expectations on other people and it has been a really eye-opening and liberating 7 weeks. Primarily in terms of my emotional self-sufficiency. Sometimes I have had weak moments, but in general haven't dragged anyone else into my panic, and that alone has made them easier to recover from.
Thank you for articulating so much of what has been on my mind.
FP1, it is a time to grieve and mourn, and it is so sad. He is very different from you and he just doesn't see it the same way. Good for you for realizing that he can't give you what you think you have to have. It is a hard time.
Keep on sleeping and hiding. It isn't often that you get times like these.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: rural west
Posts: 1,375
quoting myself, "I'm not fighting the end of my relationship; just feeling it" really sums up my life recently.
I'm back to not calling my AH.
Work is craziness, and I can't really get the umph to fill out the paperwork.
Maybe this weekend will be the time.
It seems all my time and energy is focused on cleaning my wreck of a house, walking the dog, catching up on sleep, and other mundane tasks.
I think that is probably not a bad thing.
These are things that are manageable.
I hope you all eat and sleep well tonight.
p
I'm back to not calling my AH.
Work is craziness, and I can't really get the umph to fill out the paperwork.
Maybe this weekend will be the time.
It seems all my time and energy is focused on cleaning my wreck of a house, walking the dog, catching up on sleep, and other mundane tasks.
I think that is probably not a bad thing.
These are things that are manageable.
I hope you all eat and sleep well tonight.
p
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 1,118
The other thing about what L2L said is that when those needs (validation, other people meeting our expectations) are "out there" as our aura, it makes it really easy for others to leverage that for themselves.
In other words, if validation is SO important, I believe you transmit that--sometimes verbally, but mostly non-verbally. Then the other person can manipulate and exploit that. I know that's a tool my AH uses with me. He's the most sweet-talking guy in the world. Recently he told me how great I looked in an outfit, and I asked him "I heard you tell a woman yesterday how great she looked in HER outfit, and I know you hated it. Why would you say that to someone if you didn't mean it?" He said, "Because that's what she wanted to hear." So I said, "Well, then you think that's what I want to hear, and it has nothing to do with the truth." To which he said, "No, when I tell YOU you look great, I'm telling the truth." Oh, man.
That's an aha for me--not that he lies and manipulates, but that I might be setting myself up for it through my own neediness. When the sucker is ready, the poison will appear.
In terms of how that relates to the OPs comments--yes, the antennae goes up and I think we as codependents are clearly at a disadvantage if we engage in verbal battle with the As we are attached to.
Thanks, L2L.
In other words, if validation is SO important, I believe you transmit that--sometimes verbally, but mostly non-verbally. Then the other person can manipulate and exploit that. I know that's a tool my AH uses with me. He's the most sweet-talking guy in the world. Recently he told me how great I looked in an outfit, and I asked him "I heard you tell a woman yesterday how great she looked in HER outfit, and I know you hated it. Why would you say that to someone if you didn't mean it?" He said, "Because that's what she wanted to hear." So I said, "Well, then you think that's what I want to hear, and it has nothing to do with the truth." To which he said, "No, when I tell YOU you look great, I'm telling the truth." Oh, man.
That's an aha for me--not that he lies and manipulates, but that I might be setting myself up for it through my own neediness. When the sucker is ready, the poison will appear.
In terms of how that relates to the OPs comments--yes, the antennae goes up and I think we as codependents are clearly at a disadvantage if we engage in verbal battle with the As we are attached to.
Thanks, L2L.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: rural west
Posts: 1,375
Yep.
That's the crux of it.
I don't know how (and maybe don't need to learn) how to engage verbally with my A.
We've stopped talking because of this verbal run around we do.
Ultimately, I think it is because I don't want to hear what he has to say. I want him to respond with what I want to hear. <sigh>
And he can only be who he want to be.
I get it, I get it, I go back for more...I get it, I get it...
I am learning here.
I do believe I am pulling MY unhealthy controlling thing on HIM, regardless of what he is doing.
I've been away from him so long, I don't KNOW if he's drinking.
He's not lying or hiding it because I'm not there anymore.
So all we have is this verbal nonsense and it doesn't help us to be closer...I suppose because I keep looking for him to be different than he is.
I dreamt last night that I went to get the last of my things. He was isolated and not taking care of himself with food.
I went to hug him and almost automatically said, then stopped, then said in tears, "I DO love you so much!"
I do.
I hope his life is fabulous, as I hope mine is.
p
That's the crux of it.
I don't know how (and maybe don't need to learn) how to engage verbally with my A.
We've stopped talking because of this verbal run around we do.
Ultimately, I think it is because I don't want to hear what he has to say. I want him to respond with what I want to hear. <sigh>
And he can only be who he want to be.
I get it, I get it, I go back for more...I get it, I get it...
I am learning here.
I do believe I am pulling MY unhealthy controlling thing on HIM, regardless of what he is doing.
I've been away from him so long, I don't KNOW if he's drinking.
He's not lying or hiding it because I'm not there anymore.
So all we have is this verbal nonsense and it doesn't help us to be closer...I suppose because I keep looking for him to be different than he is.
I dreamt last night that I went to get the last of my things. He was isolated and not taking care of himself with food.
I went to hug him and almost automatically said, then stopped, then said in tears, "I DO love you so much!"
I do.
I hope his life is fabulous, as I hope mine is.
p
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: minneapolis, mn
Posts: 2,762
Originally Posted by Learn2Live
And the third was understanding Validation. All those years of struggle, all those relationships I had which seemed to come crashing down on me after just a few months, were in large part due to my need for external validation. I guess that has something to do with self-esteem or self-confidence; I don't know. What I do know is that I needed so desperately for the man whom I was with to validate me and my worth as a person. And any time he did not do that, any time there was ANY indication that he might not feel that, that he did not cherish me completely, I would panic.
Now, I know that just hearing about someone else's journey and having hope doesn't do any good. There is real work that needs to happen, and real internal change that will happen...as a result.
Thanks for the message!
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
So true SoloMio. The last relationship I was in with an alcoholic-addict, at some point I realized that he KNEW what I wanted better than I did, and he knew how to respond to that in order to manipulate me emotionally, and even intellectually. I had experienced that before in two previous relationships, one with another alcoholic-addict, and another with a man I believe is a damn sociopath, and so finally after three times experiencing this, I FINALLY became aware of what I was doing and it totally sunk in. I realized that it was my longings, desires and wants that were keeping me emotionally strapped to people who were very unhealthy for me. I was so damn sick of my hurting, crying, and blubbering, I started seeing myself as a crying infant trying to get someone to pick her up and I realized that NO ONE IS COMING TO PICK ME UP. I gotta' pick my ownself up. I had to mother myself, and grow the hell up. It was hard but I finally did it! And now I'm really mature LOL! :rotfxko
Seriously, though, the strange part was I realized that I wasn't even particularly attracted to those people. I just got a (false) feeling of comfort and security, and kept wanting that to continue. It really didn't matter who the person was; none of them were any more special than any other guy out there. I had only convinced myself they were, based on the (codependent) feelings I was getting out of them and the relationship.
I remember thinking about this last year, and wondering if it is related to what some really religious persons, especially in the Eastern religions, practice regarding wants. I seemed to recall something about letting go of all of your worldly wants. I remember asking about that here and I believe it was LaTeeDa who had some suggestions. I got the book written by that Buddhist guy (can't remember his name? Thich Na Than or something) but I couldn't really understand or relate to it. I guess I should try something else.
Not sure if I got off topic but sorry if I did. (((Hugs))) FindingPeace, just keep putting one foot in front of the other. Be patient with yourself; it will all come to you in time.
Seriously, though, the strange part was I realized that I wasn't even particularly attracted to those people. I just got a (false) feeling of comfort and security, and kept wanting that to continue. It really didn't matter who the person was; none of them were any more special than any other guy out there. I had only convinced myself they were, based on the (codependent) feelings I was getting out of them and the relationship.
I remember thinking about this last year, and wondering if it is related to what some really religious persons, especially in the Eastern religions, practice regarding wants. I seemed to recall something about letting go of all of your worldly wants. I remember asking about that here and I believe it was LaTeeDa who had some suggestions. I got the book written by that Buddhist guy (can't remember his name? Thich Na Than or something) but I couldn't really understand or relate to it. I guess I should try something else.
Not sure if I got off topic but sorry if I did. (((Hugs))) FindingPeace, just keep putting one foot in front of the other. Be patient with yourself; it will all come to you in time.
Originally Posted by SoloMio
The other thing about what L2L said is that when those needs (validation, other people meeting our expectations) are "out there" as our aura, it makes it really easy for others to leverage that for themselves.
In other words, if validation is SO important, I believe you transmit that--sometimes verbally, but mostly non-verbally. Then the other person can manipulate and exploit that. I know that's a tool my AH uses with me. He's the most sweet-talking guy in the world. Recently he told me how great I looked in an outfit, and I asked him "I heard you tell a woman yesterday how great she looked in HER outfit, and I know you hated it. Why would you say that to someone if you didn't mean it?" He said, "Because that's what she wanted to hear." So I said, "Well, then you think that's what I want to hear, and it has nothing to do with the truth." To which he said, "No, when I tell YOU you look great, I'm telling the truth." Oh, man.
That's an aha for me--not that he lies and manipulates, but that I might be setting myself up for it through my own neediness. When the sucker is ready, the poison will appear.
In terms of how that relates to the OPs comments--yes, the antennae goes up and I think we as codependents are clearly at a disadvantage if we engage in verbal battle with the As we are attached to.
Thanks, L2L.
In other words, if validation is SO important, I believe you transmit that--sometimes verbally, but mostly non-verbally. Then the other person can manipulate and exploit that. I know that's a tool my AH uses with me. He's the most sweet-talking guy in the world. Recently he told me how great I looked in an outfit, and I asked him "I heard you tell a woman yesterday how great she looked in HER outfit, and I know you hated it. Why would you say that to someone if you didn't mean it?" He said, "Because that's what she wanted to hear." So I said, "Well, then you think that's what I want to hear, and it has nothing to do with the truth." To which he said, "No, when I tell YOU you look great, I'm telling the truth." Oh, man.
That's an aha for me--not that he lies and manipulates, but that I might be setting myself up for it through my own neediness. When the sucker is ready, the poison will appear.
In terms of how that relates to the OPs comments--yes, the antennae goes up and I think we as codependents are clearly at a disadvantage if we engage in verbal battle with the As we are attached to.
Thanks, L2L.
To thine own self be true.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
Originally Posted by coffeedrinker
Many things - most things - in your post rang true for me, Learn, but this one is like the crux of my problem...problems. I still struggle quite a bit with this, any I just recently realized that it simply might be with me forever. Reading your words gives me hope.
Now, I know that just hearing about someone else's journey and having hope doesn't do any good. There is real work that needs to happen, and real internal change that will happen...as a result.
Thanks for the message!
Now, I know that just hearing about someone else's journey and having hope doesn't do any good. There is real work that needs to happen, and real internal change that will happen...as a result.
Thanks for the message!
Again, sorry if I'm off-topic. Don't mean to hijack or anything.
same planet...different world
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Butte, America
Posts: 10,946
fp I love this post.
I mean,
you showed yourself that nothing's changed
except you and how you choose to involve yourself
in the non-change...ment.
er.
you know what I mean?
I mean,
at one time you were inside that
and now you've moved ahead
and are no longer inside it
and you see ... it.
And it just ... is.
That's amazing growth, man!
wow.
I mean,
you showed yourself that nothing's changed
except you and how you choose to involve yourself
in the non-change...ment.
er.
you know what I mean?
I mean,
at one time you were inside that
and now you've moved ahead
and are no longer inside it
and you see ... it.
And it just ... is.
That's amazing growth, man!
wow.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: minneapolis, mn
Posts: 2,762
Originally Posted by SoloMio
The other thing about what L2L said is that when those needs (validation, other people meeting our expectations) are "out there" as our aura, it makes it really easy for others to leverage that for themselves.
thanks, solo
yet another reason to get "better"
Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: minneapolis, mn
Posts: 2,762
Originally Posted by Learn2Live
I think it is harder to address this face-on like some other things we work on. It was relatively easy to accept that I'm codependent and start the work primarily by detaching and making better choices for myself. But if the problem with need for external Validation is low self-esteem, what does accepting you have low self-esteem do for you? And how do you know you have low self-esteem?
The thing is, I value my attributes highly. I value my Self highly.
I know I'm a good person, a kind person, a fun-to-be-around person. I know I am likable, and I really truly do like myself - even my warts!
So...I have been just not getting it, getting this concept, for the past couple years as I have thought and read about the whole Low Self Esteem thing.
I, too, apologize for the
It just seemed appropriate to respond here.
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